Friday with Means - January 29th, 2010 - Explosive database

[SSK]

You also can't see them if you have nano effects turned off in graphic settings, should we just say in only unsneaks if someone in the area has it turned on?

The visual effect is a straw man argument. Get a new one.

Setting in GUI changing gameplay is so smart, I thought you can do better, but looks like you can't. Maybe people with nano effects turned off can't use nanos at all or can't be buffed, if you switch to bigger resolution, you need to run less?

Gear generally includes: Combined Sharpshooters/Scouts (210), Xan Ear (144) and Eye (87) Symbs, ACDC (150), Improved Stare (900), Karma Harvest (130), Blood Makes Noise (107), SAM Battery (50) and Shoulderplates of Sabotage (30).

And you call this gear "fairly easy"? With same level of retardness setup agents can't be spotted at all, why don't you post how much in conceal agent can get with max buffing gear and OB.

I maxed evades, but NTs still kill me. Why my IPs spent in evades doesn't protect me? Or why can't I see half of shade if I have 50% perc compared to his conc.

[Deskclerk]

so the AoE nukes are going to have a cool down to them? 0-o sounds like a major nerf to the nts if I am reading that correctly

Crats have more aoe's than NT's

[Ebondevil]

And you call this gear "fairly easy"? With same level of retardness setup agents can't be spotted at all, why don't you post how much in conceal agent can get with max buffing gear and OB.

With equivalent stuff: 3244, not including Shadowsneak because honestly no Agent in their right mind would perk it.

Gear includes: Xan Token Board (160), Xan of Angst (120), Xan Alpha Symbs (144, 87), Ruse 4 (800), Full CSS (210), Agent Nanodeck (30), Shoulderplates of Sabotage (30), Agent Ofab Ring (20) and Concealment Expertise.

Like the other setups I could throw in more to increase it, but I was going for something roughly equivalent.

I did say you could throw away the harder stuff to get and still easily spot Shades.

As for 'fairly easily' I was thinking more in terms of what people would be willing to use without sacrifice, rather than how difficult the gear was to obtain.

[SSK]

With equivalent stuff: 3244, not including Shadowsneak because honestly no Agent in their right mind would perk it.

Gear includes: Xan Token Board (160), Xan of Angst (120), Xan Alpha Symbs (144, 87), Ruse 4 (800), Full CSS (210), Agent Nanodeck (30), Shoulderplates of Sabotage (30), Agent Ofab Ring (20) and Concealment Expertise.

Like the other setups I could throw in more to increase it, but I was going for something roughly equivalent.

I did say you could throw away the harder stuff to get and still easily spot Shades.

As for 'fairly easily' I was thinking more in terms of what people would be willing to use without sacrifice, rather than how difficult the gear was to obtain.

Why didn't you add adv leet and crat conceal buffs for extra almost 300?

Edit: and tapping tower

[IHaveHugeNick]

Posting your character statistics with outside buffs included is like posting size of your penis with length of your spine included.

[Ebondevil]

Why didn't you add adv leet and crat conceal buffs for extra almost 300?

Edit: and tapping tower

Because the crat conceal buff doesn't stack with Ruse, and Leet takes a sacrifice, personally I prefer Sabertooth or Wolf if they're available, which they are if Leet is.

Still Add Leet if you wish, which brings it up to the 3400 mark I mentioned previously which I suspect fixers may have a chance of seeing through.

How many Tapping towers do you see around compared to Sam Batteries?

[PhoenixOfAges]

In StarCraft the two Terran units that can cloak can not only initiate an attack while cloaked but can continue their attack while cloaked. This adds to the real importance of being able to detect such units. In AO sneaking is about launching a surprise attack, scouting and getting into position to make a surprise attack. Once you start your attack in AO you're out of sneak. It's helpful to be able to detect hidden chars but only helpful compare to being more critical if they could continue the attack while hidden.

There's two strong conceal profs and two strong perception profs, balance. Although if you add other things then there's...

• Two AoE root profs (traders & crats).
• If /pet hunt works on concealed chars as it does on mobs that's two more (MPs & engies, pets are also on slate to receive an overhaul to make them more useful in general and in PvP) since they'd have to pop out to deal with things or sit there while getting bashed on.
• AoE snares (fixers) if they hit would greatly reduce the function of sneaking, especially for shades. Although they at least don't pop you out of sneak from what I understand so work as they should.
• While they likely wouldn't agents could FP a prof with some of those other capacities.

That works out to up to seven out of fourteen profs that could pull a prof out of sneak and one that can greatly reduce the value of sneaking while only two of them are doing it with the defined counter to conceal of perception.

If you want to detect hidden chars do what is needed to get your perception high enough to do it or bring along another char that has. If you're not willing or able to do that then hidden chars could scout around you and launch a surprise attack as that is suppose to be part of their function. Although once they do start the attack that's it, everyone can see them now and the influence of sneaking is over.

Removing the text notices that someone/something has gone into or out of sneak makes sense and is removing something that should never have been there to start with. Those worked out to as if the player/mob shouted out that they are going to go into sneak so everyone in a good range would know and then again when they popped out. No one would do that but the game always did it for us which made sneak not as sneaky. The /assist thing is also another thing that shouldn't have been there. AoE roots not only rooting you but pulling you out of sneak is yet another thing that shouldn't be there.

[erozc]

Still Add Leet if you wish, which brings it up to the 3400 mark I mentioned previously which I suspect fixers may have a chance of seeing through.

So there is a chance - it's not certain - that one single buffed-and-equipped to the teeth profession has a chance of spotting a buffed-and-equipped to the teeth concealment profession? What's the problem there, every profession or mechanic supposedly has a nemesis of some sort. I think there'd be an issue if a buffed-to-the-teeth agent couldn't ever be spotted by anyone at all.

How many Tapping towers do you see around compared to Sam Batteries?

Maybe that's just because people feel they have enough conceal already? If it's important to you you'll probably plant one.

Finally, the rock paper scissors thing. High def beats lower AR, but nukes don't care. High NR beats low NR, but high AR doesn't care. High conceal beats lower perception, but AOE roots don't care.

[Ebondevil]

So there is a chance - it's not certain - that one single buffed-and-equipped to the teeth profession has a chance of spotting a buffed-and-equipped to the teeth concealment profession? What's the problem there, every profession or mechanic supposedly has a nemesis of some sort. I think there'd be an issue if a buffed-to-the-teeth agent couldn't ever be spotted by anyone at all.

There is no problem there, and I have no objections to it, working in a reasonably fair manner

My problem is that any old gimp 220 Bureaucrat or Trader running around in a med suit can pull a buffed-and-equipped to the teeth Agent out of conceal, less chance for a 210 Crat/Trader but I wouldn't say it was impossible.

[Vitaliy]

How long do you guys spend in sneak for this to even be a factor? 1. conceal 2. AS/SA 3. move on to rest of toolset, even if AoEs are knocking you out of sneak, how is any NT/crat/fixer etc. going to target and throw one at you before youve done your special? especially since the "XXX vanished..." messages are being removed so unless they physically see you diseappear they arent going to see it coming anyway and by then its too late to do anything about it.

[schloops]

Not complaining (since it is good news for me ), but I don't really understand why aoe dmgs should unsneak... sneakers. Or do they need to be unsneaked so ao can dump dmg on sneakers due to the change with how sneakers are treated?

Because, well, 2 professions able to see the sneakers + 2 professions (+omni solitus?) being able to pop them out seemed enough to me. If possible, would leave aoe dmgs out of the sneaker poppin toolset. I feel special enough being able to aoe dmg them.

Good news on the rendering engine though .

[navycut]

You can see the aura from the root nano on a sneaked player, hence why they become unsneaked.

Ebon actually answered this problem himself in another thread and it turns out that the only thing here that needs fixing is the fact that apparently you can not see snare aura's that are running on a concealed player.

um what? No...

You see the aura because they get unsneaked!!!!!!! lol

[SSK]

RP aside, you can do simple experiment. Turn nano effects off, so shiny things doesn't distract your attention. Pres H (sneak shortcut for less educated) take screenshot. Now root yourself if you can or ask friend if you don't and take second screenshot. Compare two images, if you see difference, it's the answer, if you don't start from AO basic manual.

[PhoenixOfAges]

How long do you guys spend in sneak for this to even be a factor? 1. conceal 2. AS/SA 3. move on to rest of toolset, even if AoEs are knocking you out of sneak, how is any NT/crat/fixer etc. going to target and throw one at you before youve done your special? especially since the "XXX vanished..." messages are being removed so unless they physically see you diseappear they arent going to see it coming anyway and by then its too late to do anything about it.

It's not just run along, sneak, bang, go on. Then you move far slow in sneak mode so it takes time to get into position. Especially for shades sneaking can be important for getting into position to make that first attack. Then if we're talking about BSs there's various spots that you can just expect people to be hiding out like at cap points or transporter pads. Agents have range so could park themselves a long ways off but shades don't. So you get there, AoE root and the shade not only is now rooted but visible too so you can attack outside of his range.

[Tanana]

um what? No...

You see the aura because they get unsneaked!!!!!!! lol

Lol..isn't that a bit of a 'what came first, the chicken or the egg' problem??

[Ebondevil]

Lol..isn't that a bit of a 'what came first, the chicken or the egg' problem??

Not really because you can't see the visual effects on players while they're concealed, not Damage shields, not reflects, not snare aura's, so there's no reason why Root's Visual effect aura's should make someone visible.

[Gunfytr]

Posting your character statistics with outside buffs included is like posting size of your penis with length of your spine included.

VERY close to siggy material.

[Deskclerk]

I'm ****ing leaving this game, I'm tired of how lazy you people are, instead of doing the things right, you always go with that shameful response of yours: "Working as intended". The skill system is there for a purpose, the counter to concealment is perception, not nano resist, you morons, you're pissing the community off with your laziness.

Yeah, and if you dare moderate this message, just because I'm not licking Menas' balls, I will ****ing cancel my account right away. If this isn't the place for real feedback between players and the Game Director then where?

Why should the fact someone is concealed remove their ability to be rooted/snared/dmg'd?

If you want to make the argument that the nano works but doesn't pop someone out of sneak then do that, BUT you would have to pop out of sneak to unroot yourself. As far as damage goes u can stay in sneak and die to multiple aoe's from a NT. It should show dmg message just as if you were not in sneak, to the caster.

You hit BlahBlah for 700 points of fire dmg....

Sneak does not equal NO NEED for NR!

[Ayria]

Sneak does not equal NO NEED for NR!

And yet nano skills should equal no need for perception?

[Notcrattey]

If you want to make the argument that the nano works but doesn't pop someone out of sneak then do that, BUT you would have to pop out of sneak to unroot yourself.

Well no duh, I'm fine with this, I'm not fine with it just popping us out of sneak though.