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Thread: Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    Still waiting for an answer on fixing the AAO debuff (drain durations) on NPC's.

    Don't get me wrong. That's the only thing really bothering me in the whole nano document.

    i tend to agree here, though i some of the other new shinies are nice. i would love to see the pvm durations on skill/aao drains lengthened, perhaps significantly so.

  2. #102
    For those of you who think posting inappropriate/obscene links in a serious discussion thread as some sort of feedback is amusing.... I am unamused. I strongly suggest you don't unamuse me further.
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  3. #103
    Why trader nanos won't require tradeskills to cast like engineer nanos? I think traders has same issue that they can't keep maxed tradeskills, nanoskills and combat skills.

    And don't remove single wrangles, buffs which requires teaming are extremely annoying.
    Last edited by Blumax; Jan 22nd, 2011 at 09:41:34.
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  4. #104

    Thumbs down

    Playing an under-equipped (no DB or LoX stuff) high level nanomage trader, mostly doing solo PvM. OK, an odd mix for the game to support, but at the moment the trader nanos permit me to just about fight SL mobs my own level, while making sure I have to pay attention. So, fun to play, but feels underpowered.

    My major current issue is a sequence of crits or nukes from the mob that I can't heal away fast enough. My major defence against this is that a fully drained mob doesn't hit that often, and Accumulator, perks and occasional health plunder can cope. So, the issue is addressed and the toon is playable.

    With the two drain lines only having 15s duration on NPCs, and the plunder skill lines still having 150% NR as defence (so it will not always land), it will be borderline at best to keep a single mob drained and still have time to shoot, health plunder, AC debuff, perk etc. If I'm dealing with an add that won't calm and need to debuff them, that clearly won't work. Maintaining the debuffs is also keyboard mashing, which is boring, and means for instance in-fight chatting is not an option in teams.

    I see no additional means of stopping damage coming in - unless the crit debuffing is much more effective than I'm expecting.

    An alternative existing tactic of calm, skill debuff, shoot also seems to disappear with that duration.

    In passing, 10minutes of of self skill buffing from the skill drains might be a boost in theory, but as others have commented, removes the "must keep the drains running to keep my skills up" vibe which I found fun. Given the skill debuffs on others can't be maintained (as above), why not just take it that traders have big 4hr skill buffs like everyone else, and split the effects of the skill drain nanos?

    My working assumption is I'll cease playing said trader come rebalance, and would never have bothered to level a trader under the new approach. Perhaps I'm missing an interesting new PvM style of play the changes enable, but I suspect not.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalv View Post
    My working assumption is I'll cease playing said trader come rebalance, and would never have bothered to level a trader under the new approach. Perhaps I'm missing an interesting new PvM style of play the changes enable, but I suspect not.
    If it's any kind of consolation, you're not alone.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Wow, if you can't see how this proposal is infinitely better for traders in PVM, I don't know what to say. I'm not sure what 'other' roles you are referring to but for PVM, I don't see anything but love in this proposal.
    Ok, I'll tell you what to say. For example, you can explain why you think proposed changes are love for solo PvM.
    From what I see, all we get is AC and crit buff, while sacrificing AAO, increasing nano casting (thus lovering chance to actually shoot and getting lower accumulator ticks). So we lose on dps, heals and all in all get hit for more (mobs in SL have min damage, so AC doesn't mean as much as higher chance for mob to miss you).

    For crying out loud, this SHOULD be DISCUSSION tread. Try to discuss concearns and ideas that contradict your views instead of simply dismissing them.
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  7. #107
    ^^ I don't see what you want to discuss. There isn't PVM love in the trader document? There is alot. PVM love doesn't only mean tools to solo inferno at 220.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Tester View Post
    If it's any kind of consolation, you're not alone.
    To me this graph proves a point i've been trying to make for years... if traders are so overpowered as everyone cries, why are we the least played profession? If we're so OP, how come we've never become a flavor-of-the-month? If it's such easymode and instawin, why aren't there double-digit percentages like the other "uber" classes (adv, enfo, sol, doc)?

    You know why, because we AREN'T! We aren't overpowered (we're about right in our current state tbh#) and anyone who actually pvps on a 220 trader for a long term (ie, not just one fight against some green or one BS where your side was already dominating anyway) sees this.

    I would love to see a graph that holds all 220 (regardless of AI level).


    PS- Yes i know traders are OP at lower levels and that they count too and that changes were needed there. But as i posted earlier, there are better ways to handle that than the changes i see here, which seem very heavy-handed.


    #: Let me clarify this point. To me being "about right" means that there are some profs you can generally "own" (not instawin, but you have a distinct advantage via toolset), some profs that "own" you (again not instawins, but significant disadvantage of toolset), and a lot of profs that are a relatively even chance. That's where traders sit right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    ^^ I don't see what you want to discuss. There isn't PVM love in the trader document? There is alot. PVM love doesn't only mean tools to solo inferno at 220.
    Can you please point out this PVM love to us lower beings? simply saying it is there doesn't make it so, regardless of what politicians think
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  9. #109
    We can grid faster now, allowing us to kill more RK-dynabosses in an hour.

    Ok, those will be the only mobs we can kill solo, but hey, i tried to find this PvM love Obtena is talking about!

    On a serious note, i doubt that soloing will be easier with the changes proposed in this document. Sure, theoretically we could heal more per minute as most mobs don't have that much NanoResist...*but* we would have to spend more time draining the mobs, casting lines we didn't had to cast before (crit debuff), and i'm not sure if we would even have the nano regain to spam the heal. We will get hit harder and the better heal will probably not compensate for that, esp. if we are running dry on the blue bar...

    I'm not too lazy to cast buffs every hour, so the 4h nanos are no love for me. And I only see stuff like 'increased nano cost/nerfed drains/"nerfed" heals'. Sub-level-205 trader might see this as pure PvM love because they get their calm fixed, but a 220? Come on..
    Syy

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Syyceria View Post
    I'm not too lazy to cast buffs every hour, so the 4h nanos are no love for me. And I only see stuff like 'increased nano cost/nerfed drains/"nerfed" heals'. Sub-level-205 trader might see this as pure PvM love because they get their calm fixed, but a 220? Come on...
    I agree and this is the point i'm trying to make as well. Lower level traders needed a lot of these changes to properly re-balance them, but at tl7 these changes are too much and seem to have been done by people without much trader experience (no offense intended, not everyone plays every prof).

    To those that say we have to see these things in light of the rest of the rebalance, trader is actually one of the professions that can get a pretty good view without it. I say that because these points are not about AR/def rating and comparing it to others... or root timing and comparing it to others... we have a very unique toolset that noone else has anything like and so it is easier to estimate what will happen.

    For example, does anyone really think it will be possible to keep more than one target drained in pvp the way the cooldowns and nanoresist checks are? In paper pvp sure, but in real pvp i highly doubt it. This completely nerfs the whole concept of a trader as our very livelihood and survival is predicated on being able to debuff everyone else so they aren't as strong (and thus we have a chance to survive with our sub-par AR and def ratings).


    I'm really going to miss my trader when this hits live; thankfully for us it's coming "soon" and we all know what that means
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Syyceria
    Whines and stuff
    You do realize this is the Trader forum, not the Shade forum? If you were expecting some kind of massive solo damage boost, you've truly been deluding yourself. These changes would be a definite boost in PvM for Traders where they should shine in a team environment.

  12. #112
    And regarding teamplay...lets say for example a pande raid: How many mobs can we keep drained at the same time with those changes? Used to be "after a short time all that are currently attacking us". Soon not enough to make a difference.

    We sacrifize our role of a debuffer to become a nanopool and crit dispender. I once got kicked out of a Tiun team for not AC draining mobs (teamleader slightly ignored the fact that i was also busy calming and offtanking, but whatever). Soon people will expect us to just cast the crit-buff every few seconds so that their ethingy grows another inch or two. PvM-love indeed if you also like running around with xp-pistols on and just making sure you press that xp-perk once it's ready...
    Syy

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    You do realize this is the Trader forum, not the Shade forum? If you were expecting some kind of massive solo damage boost, you've truly been deluding yourself. These changes would be a definite boost in PvM for Traders where they should shine in a team environment.
    Please point out this "definite boost in PvM for Traders". All of us seem to be missing it somehow

    Quote Originally Posted by Syyceria View Post
    And regarding teamplay...lets say for example a pande raid: How many mobs can we keep drained at the same time with those changes? Used to be "after a short time all that are currently attacking us". Soon not enough to make a difference.

    We sacrifize our role of a debuffer to become a nanopool and crit dispender. I once got kicked out of a Tiun team for not AC draining mobs (teamleader slightly ignored the fact that i was also busy calming and offtanking, but whatever). Soon people will expect us to just cast the crit-buff every few seconds so that their ethingy grows another inch or two. PvM-love indeed if you also like running around with xp-pistols on and just making sure you press that xp-perk once it's ready...

    THIS! This is not pvm love, this is pvm hate as it pigeonholes us into a totem class like crats used to be.
    Last edited by Bonghigs; Jan 22nd, 2011 at 14:50:46.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    You do realize this is the Trader forum, not the Shade forum? If you were expecting some kind of massive solo damage boost, you've truly been deluding yourself. These changes would be a definite boost in PvM for Traders where they should shine in a team environment.
    lol? So showing others that soemthing they think is a huge improvement or love might possibly be not is "expecting some kind of massive solo damage boost". Yeah, sure, you win.
    Syy

  15. #115
    Cutting the amount drained AND removing AAO from pvp AND 15 sec duration? this is our PROFESSION DEFINING ABLITIY and while i knew to expect some nerfage i have to say im pretty pissed. If the duration is gonna be cut by like 90% at least let it be effective for that small amount of time. How in the hell is draining 180 AR gonna have ANY effect in a pvp setting? Having one drain on should do SOMETHING. Having both drains on you should be crippling.

    I hope what with all this reworking of the AC drain line that AC's themeselves are being reworked to actually matter. Skill drains are no longer an active defense so maybe these are gonna fill that void?

    Other than the health drain line being extended im also not seeing the pvm love. No self heals, shorter calms, more drains to have to land more frequently, what am i missing?
    Traders need love too

  16. #116
    Saetos, I appreciate your honesty in my questions about pvp'ing. Do you know if our other professional is -currently- active in -end-game- pvp?


    (disclaimer to avoid dumb comments: yes i still know traders exist outside of 220 pvp, but whereas the lower traders are likely being put in line with these changes, the 220s are being drastically nerfed. hence my concern specifically about 220 pvp.)


    EDIT: I want to genuinely thank the mods for cleaning this thread up a bit and for cleaning up my lazy double-posts!
    Last edited by Bonghigs; Jan 22nd, 2011 at 16:19:54.
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  17. #117
    The general idea of nerfing drains is ok, but it looks like we have to cast useless drains to buff up to get the nanoskills (in nanoskill gimped setup) to cast the 1 nano and 1 nano only for dam and heal as everything else is useless in pvp. Why dont they just remove drains and give us buffs, would be fair at least the way it looks now we just have a hard time getting buffed while using weak debuffs that dont do **** for our defense. I just checked my trader ... all perks in nanoskills you can put there, 300er ncu, alappa nanopad, full cs and full alphas isnt enough to cast top plunder full drained.
    Last edited by Larafina; Jan 22nd, 2011 at 17:08:39.

  18. #118
    May I ask what tradeskill buffs became cast-able on others? The only ones I see are the maestro-line but those already are cast-able on others...

    I also think most of you are missing something: on NPC's the AAO is not removed from the drains, but there ONLY is the AAO (+ nanoskills). I don't know if the weaponskill debuff of the current drains has any effect on NPC's though...
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Syyceria View Post
    You are forgetting something...

    Executing Nano Program: Perfected Health Plunder.
    Your target countered the nano program.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we manage to fumble >50% of the time, and don't get me started on NR1+ opponents...


    A placeholder post on page 5? I doubt anyone will notice your answers there when you edit it, at least not those that refresh this thread every hour or so
    I was referring to pvm, where all the traders claim that they cannot solo anything anymore with these changes. Faction mobs have some decent NR and some RK bosses, but that is about it on the list of soloable mobs that might actually resist a couple health drains. In pvp, if people cannot resist a 2500 damage nuke that also heals the trader 2500 every 4 seconds while also taking 5000 (maybe 2500 nano drain hits, don't remember if nano drain is halved) nano point damage then pretty much every profession is screwed against traders.


    About the placeholder thing...I tend to reread my posts several times and quickly edit them several times lol. Usually it is before anyone actually reads them but I am generally fixing grammar or removing flames.


    I would also just like to say that even without any drain running on a mob a trader will still have higher static def than an enforcer in pvm. My enforcer evades a lot of damage from normal mobs and even evades some of the stronger mobs hits, so when you can also heal 3x as much per minute as well as calm or CC adds you have absolutely nothing to worry about in situations you should be able to solo.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    I was referring to pvm, where all the traders claim that they cannot solo anything anymore with these changes. Faction mobs have some decent NR and some RK bosses, but that is about it on the list of soloable mobs that might actually resist a couple health drains. In pvp, if people cannot resist a 2500 damage nuke that also heals the trader 2500 every 4 seconds while also taking 5000 (maybe 2500 nano drain hits, don't remember if nano drain is halved) nano point damage then pretty much every profession is screwed against traders.


    About the placeholder thing...I tend to reread my posts several times and quickly edit them several times lol. Usually it is before anyone actually reads them but I am generally fixing grammar or removing flames.


    I would also just like to say that even without any drain running on a mob a trader will still have higher static def than an enforcer in pvm. My enforcer evades a lot of damage from normal mobs and even evades some of the stronger mobs hits, so when you can also heal 3x as much per minute as well as calm or CC adds you have absolutely nothing to worry about in situations you should be able to solo.
    I'll go in paragraph order.

    First paragraph, without the additional drains we will be alpha-food for anyone equal or better equip within that 4second time frame most of the time as our defense is not that good. We don't really have any active defense except for the heal (requires passing a nanoresist check, unlike other heals) and a reflect nano that i haven't looked at the changes for but eats our nano and is thus hardly as reliable as the defenses other professions get.

    Third paragraph, comparing enforcers to traders like that is silly, ignorant (true meaning, not insult) or purposely misleading. Enforcers have 4-5 times a traders HP, they have coon/bioregrowth/etc, they have absorbs, they have mongo as a HoT. We may have slightly more static def (not sure if this is even true, it would highly depend on the personal setup), but we have far less overall defenses.
    Last edited by Bonghigs; Jan 22nd, 2011 at 17:31:00.
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