Friday with Means - January 29th, 2010 - Explosive database

[IHaveHugeNick]

The odds to be poped from concealment will be greatly improved towards Agents/Shades favour, so why do i see them doing nothing but crying a river in this thread? I know whine power is strong within you guys but shouldn't you, by the forum rules, defend this change not cry about it?

It will be no longer possible to pick out sneaked target using /assist macros, and i don't know about other people who play classes capable of AOE rooting, but myself when searching for concealed player , i rely almost exclusively, on 'target appears' message. Especially against Agents, as they are, you know, kind of small.

And as far as i understand this message wont be here anymore either.

So basically 2 classes out of 14 can pop you from sneak provided the root lands and they spot something that has a size of one pixel. Good lord, OVARPOWEARARAD.

[majere]

1st OMG!!!!

[Gatester]

The odds to be poped from concealment will be greatly improved towards Agents/Shades favour, so why do i see them doing nothing but crying a river in this thread? I know whine power is strong within you guys but shouldn't you, by the forum rules, defend this change not cry about it?

It will be no longer possible to pick out sneaked target using /assist macros, and i don't know about other people who play classes capable of AOE rooting, but myself when searching for concealed player , i rely almost exclusively, on 'target appears' message. Especially against Agents, as they are, you know, kind of small.

And as far as i understand this message wont be here anymore either.

So basically 2 classes out of 14 can pop you from sneak provided the root lands and they spot something that has a size of one pixel. Good lord, OVARPOWEARARAD.

Read the first quote in my sig. There is a difference between stating an issue, and whining about everything, and almost everything is pure QQ. People are whining so much that I can't even say a prof is great in one area and bad in another without apparently saying they are the nerfest....

Players want everything, they want to sacrifice nothing, and no matter how big a boost is, all it needs is one little problem and the tears start flooding out. Apparently no one understands that every advantage should come with an equivalent disadvantage. It is called balance.

[Body]

another Good FwM !

[Tyfowler]

The 2nd post is really exciting... Roofridge!

hahaha! didnt even notice that lol

[Dogtrauma]

It doesn't seem like an impossible/implausible solution to give stealthing toons a bonus to NR and Duck-Explosives, scaling with Stealth skill. Sneaking can ( or should) probably assume that the "sneakee" is hunkering down and taking cover behind trash-cans and dead keepers that the engine just cant handle drawing. You are after all, moving at mildew speed

This would make stealthers feel that their IP investment is not totally disregarded, while still allowing a chance of doing proper recon-by-fire.

That would be fair, no?

[PhoenixOfAges]

Regarding the whole conceal and AoE roots thing it is rather absurd that they would pop you out of conceal. All a root, AoE or otherwise is suppose to be doing is restricting your movement. Perception is suppose to be the thing that allows you to see hidden things, not spamming AoE nanos. With hidden mobs hitting them with an AoE nano provokes them to attack you and their attacking you is what pops them out. Players though should have the option to choose if they want to pop out to attack, whether or not the nano landed should not be a factor in that.

Adding an additional cool down to those as a supposed PvP balance as others have said would influence PvM as well. Then from some of the info mentioned in the more recent prof related adjustments it sounds like mobs will be given more toys which could make them more of a threat and make crowd control in PvM more important.

Different profs are suppose to have different advantages and disadvantages, high conceal or high perception are among them. Then IPing either and related bonuses is what should make each useful, not some other unrelated thing. As each of the profs is largely so different from each other 100% one on one balance with each prof is really just a pipe dream some PvPers have. FC has repeatedly said for years now they have no plans to provide complete one on one PvP balance in AO and as far as I know still don't.

People like to bring up Starcraft when talking about a game with balanced player vs player. To put AO in Starcraft terms each char in AO is the equivalent of different units in Starcraft, not different sides which is what you play in Starcraft. Clan, Omni and Neutral are also not different Starcraft sides but instead different divisions of one side, Terran I suppose. Each Starcraft side has more distinct differences than each side in AO and each side in AO does completely share units/chars which different Starcraft sides do not do. Then each side in Starcraft as well as other such games (RTS: Real Time Strategy) tend to have a number of equivalent units/buildings between all sides. There would be side related differences between them but each still would have for instance some standard infantry, tank and so forth. The number of distinct differences between sides in Starcraft or most other RTS games tends to not be that pronounced or numerous. There are of course a number of differences but compare to the differences between say a NT and a keeper they are far less significant.

The idea of AO PvP is like what you do in RTS games. You gather up some units of varying types and send them in to fight. You don't take in just one unit and wouldn't use only one type of unit for all things but would send multiple units at once and a mix of types as needed. So if you're going to fight some other people that could have high conceal chars bring some high perception chars with you to deal with them just as you'd bring good counter units in a RTS game.

[Cdogg421]

i'm sure this has been asked a few times already and prolly answered every time, but when are we going to see some extra char slots and possible char transfer between servers?

[Tanana]

You can see the aura from the root nano on a sneaked player, hence why they become unsneaked.

Ebon actually answered this problem himself in another thread and it turns out that the only thing here that needs fixing is the fact that apparently you can not see snare aura's that are running on a concealed player.

[Ayria]

You can see the aura from the root nano on a sneaked player, hence why they become unsneaked.

Ebon actually answered this problem himself in another thread and it turns out that the only thing here that needs fixing is the fact that apparently you can not see snare aura's that are running on a concealed player.

You also can't see them if you have nano effects turned off in graphic settings, should we just say in only unsneaks if someone in the area has it turned on?

The visual effect is a straw man argument. Get a new one.

[Liamboru]

I love Fridays.

The first page brings hope.... by the time the sixth page rolls around, everyone's in "speculative forum pvp" mode while flaming each other.

I do so love Fridays.

Do you think this forum is supposed to be for something different? Maybe that is the intent, but the reality is much different...you need only look at posts from GD on down.

[IHaveHugeNick]

As if there is a need any arguments, every action needs a counter, concealment gets area roots, get used to the idea. It doesn't need to make sense in your world from RP point of view (and there are plenty of viable RP explanations). Concealment needs a counter, and there it is.

Actually after the changes i dare to say concealment will be a mechanism with the least counters in entire game. Chew on that idea for a moment.

[Ayria]

As if there is a need any arguments, every action needs a counter, concealment gets area roots, get used to the idea. It doesn't need to make sense in your world from RP point of view (and there are plenty of viable RP explanations). Concealment needs a counter, and there it is.

Actually after the changes i dare to say concealment will be a mechanism with the least counters in entire game. Chew on that idea for a moment.

Concealment has a counter, perception. Don't want to IP it then tough **** you don't get to spot hidden things. Least that's the way it should be.

Beyond that, no other skill has two ways to attack it. You shoot a gun, it checks Dodge Range, shotgun checks Duck Explosion, swing a sword it checks Evade Clsc, fire a nano it checks NR. It's not like my gun checks against Dodge OR Duck, it's one or the other; not both.

Concealment is the only skill in all of AO that has two things it has to defend against, Nanos AND perception.

I want my gun to check against NR and Dodge Range so I can hit evaders even with perks up.

[Zandibel]

Concealment has a counter, perception. Don't want to IP it then tough **** you don't get to spot hidden things. Least that's the way it should be.

Beyond that, no other skill has two ways to attack it. You shoot a gun, it checks Dodge Range, shotgun checks Duck Explosion, swing a sword it checks Evade Clsc, fire a nano it checks NR. It's not like my gun checks against Dodge OR Duck, it's one or the other; not both.

Concealment is the only skill in all of AO that has two things it has to defend against, Nanos AND perception.

I want my gun to check against NR and Dodge Range so I can hit evaders even with perks up.

You know this argument is retarded. The classes that have AoE roots don't have a hope in hell of getting enough perception to see the real sneakers.

Why is it assumed by agents and maybe shades that they should be able to stand right next to someone on open ground and not be seen. TBH the whole sneaking system is a bit retarded unless the RP reason for the way it works is that
"some kind of nanobots or something occlude the target's vision"
Even if this is the case an AoE attack should still reveal you, you are still "there" you don't phase out of existence when you go into conceal you are just "invisible".

[IHaveHugeNick]

Concealment has a counter, perception. Don't want to IP it then tough **** you don't get to spot hidden things.

I have perception maxed, yet i don't get to see Agents nor Shades, perhaps dev team should do something about that? Hey guys, those checks shouldn't be 100% see or not see depending on what is higher. 3000 concealment vs. 1000 perception should result in me spotting concealed person 1/3 of the time. Right?

Beyond that, no other skill has two ways to attack it. You shoot a gun, it checks Dodge Range, shotgun checks Duck Explosion, swing a sword it checks Evade Clsc, fire a nano it checks NR. It's not like my gun checks against Dodge OR Duck, it's one or the other; not both..

I wholeheartly agree.

Too bad you forgot to mention everyone can take a swing of you with sword or shot you with a gun, while only 2 classes out of 14 have AOE roots and no one at all can get enough perception to spot an Agent who worked towards high concealment.

While there are two ways to "attack" concealment , one is possible only on paper and the other is only available for 2 professions, ones that aren't very common to begin with, and also depends on other things like actually spotting the small target.

Which makes concealment, who would have thought, the mechanic that is least possible to be overcome in the entire game.

So please, chew on those facts for a moment prior to making next post before i decide to debunk your whine river and divert it right back at you.

[Edta]

Beyond that, no other skill has two ways to attack it. You shoot a gun, it checks Dodge Range, shotgun checks Duck Explosion, swing a sword it checks Evade Clsc, fire a nano it checks NR. It's not like my gun checks against Dodge OR Duck, it's one or the other; not both.

Concealment is the only skill in all of AO that has two things it has to defend against, Nanos AND perception.

I want my gun to check against NR and Dodge Range so I can hit evaders even with perks up.

I don't really agree. If you have enough Evade Close, melee weapons won't be able to hit you. Ranged persons can still hit you unless you have enough Dodge ranged as well.
Same for hiding: if you have enough concealment, perceptive people won't be able to see you. AoE-users can still see you, unless you have enough nanoresist as well.

All skills only have 1 counter skill (concealment <-> perception / Evade Close <-> melee weapon / ...). It's the effect (being hit / being seen) that has multiple counter skills.

No matter what, the actual BALANCE is what counts. Come back if you experience that it is unbalanced. Thank you.

[Gatester]

If you really wanna look at it from a common sense point of view, if you use an AOE nuke and set someone on fire, would they not be easier to see as an "invisible" ball of fire? Snares and Mongo Taunts I do not see unconcealing players, but everything else should.

[Ebondevil]

Too bad you forgot to mention everyone can take a swing of you with sword or shot you with a gun, while only 2 classes out of 14 have AOE roots and no one at all can get enough perception to spot an Agent who worked towards high concealment.

Adventurers can get around 3180 Perception, which is enough to spot an Agent with about 3200 Concealment, as you don't need more Perception than concealment to see someone.

Fixers can get around 3290 Perception, Might even pull someone with 3400 Concealment out of sneak. Not tested it, wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Bureaucrat can fairly easily get 2950 Perception, enough to pull most Agents out of sneak unless they work on the concealment, will easily pull any shade out of Concealment.

Traders can fairly easily get 3100 Perception, enough to pull most Agents out of Concealment, unless they really work on their Concealment, will easily pull Shades out.

Agents can get around 2951 Perception, no support for perception in Xan Ear or Eye even though Agents have one of the cheapest IP costs for Perception, sucks really.

Takes a couple of outside buffs from Adventurer and Fixer to manage, but it's possible and at those levels, well you can skip quite a lot of the gear and still pull shades out of concealment. It does take an Expenditure of IP to manage though which is what it should take. Without spending IP you can knock about 1000 skill off those figures and you're not going to be seeing anyone, which again, you shouldn't be.

There's no reason why someone who doesn't spend IP in Perception should be able to spot someone who does spend IP in Concealment, when it's quite possible for everyone to pull shades out of concealment and there's a good chance of nearly anyone pulling an Agent out.

Gear generally includes: Combined Sharpshooters/Scouts (210), Xan Ear (144) and Eye (87) Symbs, ACDC (150), Improved Stare (900), Karma Harvest (130), Blood Makes Noise (107), SAM Battery (50) and Shoulderplates of Sabotage (30).

[NoGoal]

(...)

Bureaucrat can fairly easily get 2950 Perception(...)

Traders can fairly easily get 3100 Perception

(...)
Gear generally includes: Combined Sharpshooters/Scouts (210), Xan Ear (144) and Eye (87) Symbs, ACDC (150), Improved Stare (900), Karma Harvest (130), Blood Makes Noise (107), SAM Battery (50) and Shoulderplates of Sabotage (30).

Right.

[Ebondevil]

Right.

Yeah, right, pull out the Combined, the ACDC, the SAM Battery, drop the symbs a few QL's and those profs will still be pulling Shades out of Concealment.