Purpose and Function: Damage Professions

[Notcrattey]

Can't FC change dmg of perks or proc attacks to have a target=npc value or something so it doesn't interfere with PvP?

Pets would get killed, unless FC some how figured that out with the SP changes and whatnot.

[-XeI20-]

The specialization is what killing AO. Nothing compare in tanking abilities to enf and nobody heals like doctor. We got several DD profs, but only 1 healing and 1 tanking. There's not enough roles for 14 professions and even then some hugely excel over all others.

There should be more to gameplay then healing, tanking, or performing damage. The purpose of profs is not matching their function currently. If they were each prof would have their place within content. People would want -cost. People would want normal mezs. People would want a few more hundred evades. People would want +nanoskills. People would want back-up tanks and secondary healers.

It's not so much specialization of profs which is hurting AO as it is the negation of their specializations having an effect within content while not having anything given in return.

On a further note lets just look at what my suggestion does. It vaults NTs and Shade far above Crats and Engis. Crats are one of those profs who specializations have become far too good across a far too broad spectrum. Their not being a high dmg prof any more is a good thing. As to engis, I feel they should remain as they are and that mas should be brought to their level while nts and shades go above them.

You said that the specialization of profs is whats killing AO. Yet a prof which is not specialized in dealing damage is oding or coming close to oding a prof which is, and this prof they're competing with in damage can in no way or form compete with the other aspects of their tools. Not only this, but they excel above all others in these other tools they have.

My suggestion isn't so much as demanding to be only one thing as it is having the option to excel in what we were made to do. I like being able to be a decent tank. My team benefits from this capacity. I however would like the option to forgo tanking and deal damage while letting someone else tank, perhaps maybe one of those other profs which have the capability to tank, a soldier, keeper, or adv. This suggestion increases the specialization of one prof, while allowing the capabilities of others to finally be used. An increase in variety all around right?

[Philty]

Reflects are one of the most in-demand supportive tools there are. Two professions have them, soldiers and engis. When one can't find a soldier they get an engi. The engi blind is nothing to scoff at either. Reflects are far more useful then say, drains which only affect one mob, or mezs which won't mez half of anything people want mezed.

I will tell you one thing, engis are always secondary reflect, their reflect is weaker than soldiers one so if you can choose you will always choose soldier. On RK I have one word for you - RRFE.
Anyway speaking about soldiers, they are not top DDers acc to your oppinion? I can imagine that those with soldier mains must be really amused by this nonsense.
Anyway from your point of understanding of support role, mas have heal (oh even team one) and its surely great supportive tool mitigating damage and dont forget that MAs have also taunts so the can come handy as secondary tank - so they shold be desired in teams highly (and they have also mop which is one of most desired buff for combat). Speaking about blinds, most powerful ones have NT which was mentioned as top dmg dealer by you (and we do not speak about nullity sphere, mezz, roots and absorbs - pff..where is engi with his poor supportive toolset in comparison with NT).
So whats left from your damage rant - shades? You should say it clearly, not covered in this rubbish. You have to wrote - "I WANT MY SHADE TO BE BEST DD INGAME AT ALL CONDITIONS" and all idea behind would be said.

Anyway I suspect that all your whine was caused by the fact that you have lost in dd with engi or crat. Poor you, you should try harder, I know shades which cant be beaten by anyone.

[Notcrattey]

I will tell you one thing, engis are always secondary reflect, their reflect is weaker than soldiers

But engis have significantly more DD.

[Gunfytr]

But engis have significantly more DD.

Not ur avg engie vs ur avg sold.

[navycut]

Anyway from your point of understanding of support role, mas have heal (oh even team one) and its surely great supportive tool mitigating damage and dont forget that MAs have also taunts so the can come handy as secondary tank

lol a MA's heals are pathetic and so are our taunts Team heal has ultra stupid reqs and don't even heal for much.

[Notcrattey]

Not ur avg engie vs ur avg sold.

What dictates an average soldier or engi?

[-XeI20-]

I will tell you one thing, engis are always secondary reflect, their reflect is weaker than soldiers one so if you can choose you will always choose soldier. On RK I have one word for you - RRFE.

You did read the quote of me in your post right?
"When one can't find a soldier they get an engi."

Anyway speaking about soldiers, they are not top DDers acc to your oppinion? I can imagine that those with soldier mains must be really amused by this nonsense.

Actually they're not amused when they're incapable of holding agg from my Shade. The highest dmg output I've seen form a sol is 240k dpm. I can reach 270k dpm with 12man buff. Add sol +dmg aura and....

Anyway from your point of understanding of support role, mas have heal (oh even team one) and its surely great supportive tool mitigating damage and dont forget that MAs have also taunts so the can come handy as secondary tank - so they shold be desired in teams highly (and they have also mop which is one of most desired buff for combat).

Tbh I don't know a whole lot about MA's. This is primarily because well, I really haven't had the chance to team many MA's and parse their dmg, observe their capabilities within a team, etc. I added them in this suggestion simply for good measure.

Speaking about blinds, most powerful ones have NT which was mentioned as top dmg dealer by you (and we do not speak about nullity sphere, mezz, roots and absorbs - pff..where is engi with his poor supportive toolset in comparison with NT).

It was my understanding nt blinds stacked up for around 500 aao. While engi blind does -1200.

So whats left from your damage rant - shades? You should say it clearly, not covered in this rubbish. You have to wrote - "I WANT MY SHADE TO BE BEST DD INGAME AT ALL CONDITIONS" and all idea behind would be said.

Anyway I suspect that all your whine was caused by the fact that you have lost in dd with engi or crat. Poor you, you should try harder, I know shades which cant be beaten by anyone.

And I know how to achieve such a setup. I however do not feel such a setup should be necessary for a prof who's specialization is to deal damage. Should you need to farm endless hours just to cast your reflects? or to cast your blind? Should crats need to farm endlessly just to mez a boss? It's true I want my Shade to be the best dd IG in any endgame setup I decide to use. The same can be said that docs want to be the best healers in whatever setup they have. Or that enfs want to be the best tanks in whatever setup they have. They're given the tools to be so and these tools work for the most part. I'd like my tools as a Shade to work just as effectively. Why is this so wrong? Why is it so wrong to want my prof to function as it was designed to?

[JustinSane4]

I think a problem here is that fundamentally there are only 4 useful functions within a team: Tank, Heal, DD, CC. Three of those categories have clear winners, and thus Docs, Enfs, and Crats have little trouble finding teams. The fourth is the last remaining that is competitive. If Shades get a meaningful dd boost, will anyone ever want to team a trader or an MP? It seems it would leave a situation where half of professions would arguably not be worth rolling, given that whatever they do well, someone else could do it better without even really trying.

Personally I think a defensively focused Shade should be able to be OD'd by any number of professions in DD setups (though I'm not convinced Enfs or Crats should be in that list given their other PvM capabilities). A DD focused Shade should be able to OD anyone, but not by a vast margin over other DD focused professions.

[Klodovik]

Is this serious? Asking for shades to do more damage?

[SSK]

Is this serious? Asking for shades to do more damage?

DMG + detaunts to be safe and not to have drawbacks for insane amounts of it.

Also obsession about crats dominating PvM except tanking and healing

[-XeI20-]

Personally I think a defensively focused Shade should be able to be OD'd by any number of professions in DD setups (though I'm not convinced Enfs or Crats should be in that list given their other PvM capabilities). A DD focused Shade should be able to OD anyone, but not by a vast margin over other DD focused professions.

Other then Nts, Shades, and MA's, which other profs actually have their toolsets designed to do damage? It seems to me that you are confusing things a bit. Just because you focus on performing damage with a prof does not mean that's the profs function. I'm surprised this continues. Shade is to damage, as doc is to healing. Fixer with dd focus is not as to doc is to healing. As far as I'm concerned Oding a Shade should be a moot point. It's our toolset to do damage. Just because you can have a focus towards damage through equipment does not make it part of your toolset. For Shades it's in our nanos, our perks, our profession specific eqiupment. It is our toolset. FFS people. We Shades have only one 'other' buff and it buffs RS!! Our Toolset Is To Do Damage.

Just because your profs toolset has become unneeded because of various updates to equipment does not mean your profs toolset is suddenly to deal damage. Your toolset needs to become useful again. You have a prof, you're not playing it when your tools are not being used.

That being said, there needs to be far more done to pvm then just uping damage to Shades and NTs. Profs need some nerfing, some boosts, some revisions as to what their purpose in a team is to be. They do not need to become Shades or Nt's or MA's and be damage dealers.

To be quite frank, the moment everyone whose toolset is underutilized suddenly becomes a damage dealer is the moment we all might as well be using the same armor, the same weapons, the same nanos, perks, and specials. Variety is had through variance. There is no variance when everyone who isn't a doc, enf/sol, or crat simply does damage.

[Klodovik]

DMG + detaunts to be safe and not to have drawbacks for insane amounts of it.

Also obsession about crats dominating PvM except tanking and healing

Well, detaunts would be a good idea, but hell, no more extra damage for shades, please. -.-

[-XeI20-]

Well, detaunts would be a good idea, but hell, no more extra damage for shades, please. -.-

If crats got bumped down to 220k dpm, I'd be all smiles and stfu. I personally ccl about engis. Honestly there's too few of them around. However, I'd really like some adjustments to SR for a bit more damage on it. 10 more perk points would solve alot as well. The choice for PvP would then be between xtra dmg or CC protection, for which I'm confident I know what most would pick...

[keitelo]

Well, detaunts would be a good idea, but hell, no more extra damage for shades, please. -.-

OK! but extra defense plz especially for pvp...

On a side note i say it again but i'm quite worried about the uber incoming balance.

Besides all super threads on forum you have to only consider what "improvments" made it IN GAME.

adv ranged = LOL craziest defense in game by far
what FC gave them?AS and 80% checks on perks? wtf? OPed much FC?

crats also got CRAZY boost, half of inferno is swarmed by lolcrats 220.

Also many additions to many profs were totaly retarded and destroyed pvp/pvm fun even more.

GTH/AS traders huge drains, triples/doubles loluredeadm8 NTs, shield MP lol cant perk, etc etc.

On the other hand shades whom ALWAYS sucked in pvp(lolMR doesn't count sorry) only got minor improvments.Exemple with LE most profs got 160 AR boost via the research, shades only 110 or so.Thx FC the prof who need AR the most got the less ofc nothing surprising.The list can go on and on for pages.

FC just never had a clue about BALANCE, which requires smooth improvments and nerfs so that each prof can have fun and have something to do without being godlike or nerfed to oblivion.

FC = IWIN button specialists
Btw the IWIN button thingy in ICC, i always though that was very "oh the irony" but in a very very bad way.

[navycut]

Dont be a moron, engy blinds break on debuff and damage 100%, that means

Mongo
AOE nukes
Single nukes
Shield Damage
Reflect Damage
Player Damage
Init Debuffs
Drains
Perk Debuffs
Perk damage


....need i go on?

if engy blind is so damn useful, why do i never get asked to cast it?

Seriously asking for us to get less dd, because somewhere, sometimes if you just cant find a sold, you can use our reflect, or somewhere for some reason, someone is obsessed with a useless blind is an absoloute cop out.

Shades can evade tank
Engy Cant tank because our agg is split between us and pets

MAs can heal
Engy has BR/maybe survival

Agents have ubt/heals (and dont FING tell me agents arent the UBTer in pande raids)
Engy has no init debuff/heal

NTs have calms
Engineers do not

Good docs have no problems ubting and healing so agents really arent needed (so yeah agents are nice to ease up a doc's work but not very necessary).

MAs can heal what? A 1.7kish heal every 8 seconds wow.

But anyway, I don't have much of a problem with engis doin plenty dmg, just annoyed at crats' ability to have everything.

[-XeI20-]

Seriously asking for us to get less dd, because somewhere, sometimes if you just cant find a sold, you can use our reflect, or somewhere for some reason, someone is obsessed with a useless blind is an absoloute cop out.

If crats got bumped down to 220k dpm, I'd be all smiles and stfu. I personally ccl about engis. Honestly there's too few of them around....

I never asked for engis to do less damage. I asked for Shades and Nts to do more damage then them. With ma's able to do about as much as them. I in no way want engis to do less. That doesn't really serve any purpose.

With a few tweaks Shades could gain the ability to OD even the best engis at the expense of being able to tank, and stun/init debuff. It's not as if I'm asking you give up your reflects to have the damage you do. I'm not asking that. Instead I'm asking Shades have the option to do exactly that. Give up a great deal of our defenses in exchange for a substantial damage increase. I'm thinking on the order of a -600ish defensive loss which includes DoF.

[JustinSane4]

I think it's pretty arguable that only NTs, Shades and MAs have DD as part of their tool kit.

For instance, my profession (MP) has an attack pet, three nano lines to boost the attack pet's damage, a perk line to boost the attack pet's damage, two lines of nukes, +nanodamage in our research and ofab ring, a +nano damage perk line coming with a +200 nano damage short duration buff, DD perks from profession specific and group lines and creation nanos that create DD 2hb weapons (the best of which also increases the pet's damage). Clearly, DD is a critical part of the MP tool kit.

This doesn't make us unique of course. Every profession has elements in their tool set that aid them in dealing damage. Arguing that Shades should have more DD than other profs without basing their setup and perk choices around it because other professions don't have DD as part of their tool set confuses me.

Also, it's not entirely true that Shades' tool set consists entirely of DD. They also have strong evades and health drains.

[-XeI20-]

I think it's pretty arguable that only NTs, Shades and MAs have DD as part of their tool kit.

For instance, my profession (MP) has an attack pet, three nano lines to boost the attack pet's damage, a perk line to boost the attack pet's damage, two lines of nukes, +nanodamage in our research and ofab ring, a +nano damage perk line coming with a +200 nano damage short duration buff, DD perks from profession specific and group lines and creation nanos that create DD 2hb weapons (the best of which also increases the pet's damage). Clearly, DD is a critical part of the MP tool kit.

This doesn't make us unique of course. Every profession has elements in their tool set that aid them in dealing damage. Arguing that Shades should have more DD than other profs without basing their setup and perk choices around it because other professions don't have DD as part of their tool set confuses me.

Also, it's not entirely true that Shades' tool set consists entirely of DD. They also have strong evades and health drains.

It's true many profs have many ways of increasing their damage. They have damage perks true. They have prof specific weapons which do damage true.

But do their damage perks buff damage twice over at around +500? Do their damage perks hit for over 50k of damage in total? Do their weapons normal hit for 2.2k and crit for 4.5k with an attack speed of 1s? Even our evade drain line debuffs a mobs aad which increases our crit chance, and even dot's them. Our dmg perks have dots on them, buff our normal damage as well. All of our prof perks have a heavy focus on dealing damage, while also allowing the Shade to last long enough to continue dealing said damage.

[Gatester]

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=148322

I would like to see someone OD that honestly. Viable? Sure, you cannot tank or solo well but the option for ridiculous damage is there. Also, if you want to really increase your damage increase your piercing skill. Team with a trader and your perks will do more damage, and I am unsure where the cutoff is but im sure if that setup used CC instead of crit gear the damage could be increased despite our piercing weps doing so much crit damage.

You can't be a massive DD and tank well, but we can still be DD and tank or solo as a shade. I do not know how much damage you think shades are doing, or where they should be, but I can tell you I am nearly double my enforcers damage in my current unfinished setup that tanks well compared to my enfs nearly 100% tanking setup. The only issue could be the damage other professions are doing themselves, and how it should be reduced, but shade damage is already very high from levels 100-220.