Balanced ways to reduce Enforcer and Soldier mass pvp/pvm surviviability?

[Gatester]

Need some fair ideas to balance this because, quite frankly, Enforcers and Soldiers are quite ridiculous in Mass PVP.

Good enforcers have 70-80k max health, stacking over 3k def, 30% reflects (usually), and have 3200+ NR with Root/Snare immunity (No NT can spare the time to Root the enforcer). I may not feel overpowered in most pvp situations, especially without using MR, but my ability to survive in mass pvp is laughable.

Soldiers have similar strengths. They are ranged heavy hitters, able to sit back with the heals. Only traders will really be able to affect them with BR, as NT's are rare and hit soldiers for a lot less % of their health than most other professions, and engineers cannot get close to soldiers without being killed quickly as they are prime/rootable targets.

In addition to mass pvp, which is more relevant to player satisfaction, I would like to see some suggestions regarding pvm ability of both profs as tanks. I think it is too easy to do most pvm content anymore, but the playerbase has diminished so much has to be taken into account.


With that out of the way, we can get to some questions.

1) Do you think enforcers and soldiers in mass pvp are in fact ok and why?

2) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?

3) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?

4) Do you think enforcers and soldiers are ok in pvm raiding or teaming and why?

5) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?

6) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?


Please keep in mind this will be largely opinionative, and if you can try to respect each others opinions. I will try as well, and I know I forget it sometimes, but as I feel this is a serious issue I will work on keeping a level head along with everyone else hopefully

[Gatester]

1) Do you think enforcers and soldiers in mass pvp are in fact ok and why?
No, especially if pvp as a whole is slowing down, and their support could be possibly harder to kill.

2) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?
For enforcers, I would reduce the amount of max health they can reach and if possible, reduce how much they can be healed. As far as soldiers are concerned I would rely on others for a more experienced based opinion.

3) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?
If spec blockers were reduced, and healing ability by doctors was less effective on these two professions, I believe enforcers and soldiers would both become easier targets to deal with. Engineers reflect reducer could also be made to clear a lower reflect amount, maybe 25%, but have a much better land rate and range.

4) Do you think enforcers and soldiers are ok in pvm raiding or teaming and why?
No, it has become far too easy.

5) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?
Enforcers were doing just fine without 70k-80k health and it has reduced the need for quality enforcers in most raiding and teaming. Soldiers also use their AMS+Heal Delta over effectively (soloing Keeper in Alb for instance) and make a strong team with a doc in instances where the soldier can tank, provide DD, and provide support for the doctor.

The DB/SL essence lines could be reduced significantly in max health buffing, 9000 instead of 29000 for instance, reduce the snaring effect maybe, and at least get enforcers to require some twinking or a very strong team to tank.

Soldiers, again, someone who plays a 220 would have better knowledge of their strengths as well as a balanced reduction in it. Best I can think of is more reflect reducers by bosses.

6) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?
Reduced doctor healing effectiveness, reduce crat pvm effectiveness. Massive init debuffs+ massive healing have made pvm encounters a joke.



My only concern is the playerbase, and if it becomes harder to find a good enforcer and enough healers again, well people might actually have to take longer to do raids. In pvp, I hate the feeling of being nearly invincible in mass pvp, however I am also not a debuffing or supportive threat and can be somewhat ignored. Either way being unkillable and still dangerous is a bad situation in my opinion.

[Gunfytr]

I cant speak for Enfos, but there are enuff proffs out there to completely negate a Soldiers defense, making him only defended by HD/HP...which by itself, IS no defense.

Soldiers will be fine...you got ur AS/hotswap nerf, now leave us alone.

[Moonbolt]

if an enforcer is using his SL ess in mass pvp he will never reach his target due to the massive snare.
he doesnt have full auto and burst that he can use at range etc.

in large pvp battles i often find myself reaching the target just as it dies´due to soldiers agents etc unloading their alpha into it before i can press my /follow macro and reach the target.
my 35k HP i usually are running around with in mass pvp doesnt keep me up a very long time when i get called since its usually 4-5 9k FA/AS landing on me before the docs have time to react.

[DaChains]

Soldiers have similar strengths. They are ranged heavy hitters, able to sit back with the heals. Only traders will really be able to affect them with BR, as NT's are rare and hit soldiers for a lot less % of their health than most other professions, and engineers cannot get close to soldiers without being killed quickly as they are prime/rootable targets.

With that out of the way, we can get to some questions.

1) Do you think enforcers and soldiers in mass pvp are in fact ok and why?

2) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?

3) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?

4) Do you think enforcers and soldiers are ok in pvm raiding or teaming and why?

5) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?

6) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?

Your assumption on soldier side are false or drug induced.
1st of all Nts abound in BS on RK1 i think you must be from other dimensions clearly and NTs do kill soldiers, you cannot have high hp and high ar, you gotta make amends so your statement is false, on RK1 we usually get trader nt combo so good luck with that.
2nd Engineers being rooted ? by who cause i checked my soldier nanos and none had roots i must be missing something.
Now:

1) No soldiers are not ok, they have 1 defense which can be interrupted, nsded, stolen, ignored.

2)Too strong? are we playing same game ?

3)Redo the reflects ignoring nanos, kick BR in the shin or delete nano shutdown after ams

4)Soldiers can tank high level mobs only with ams after that it's kite kite and kite

5)Too strong? are we playing same game ?

6)What do other professions have to do with soldier's ability to tank ?

[Alternity]

@ OP: What enforcer in his right mind would imub in mass PvP?

[Moonbolt]

@ OP: What enforcer in his right mind would imub in mass PvP?

i was thinking the same thing.

[Questra]

With that out of the way, we can get to some questions.

1) Do you think enforcers and soldiers in mass pvp are in fact ok and why?

In mass PvP, I think soldiers are ok. Chances are there are going to be multiple soldier nemeses in any mass PvP situation. The changes I want for soldiers are all small, balanced, and reasonable requests, as well as a fix for bugs like not being able to RRFE team members.

Enfs... well... if breaking 3k def and 3k NR meant having not too much more than 3k AR, I'd say yes, especially with the new fear nano. But that's not the case. I think enfs either have a bit too much def or a bit too much NR. But the AR is fine, they should be masters of successfully bashing the **** out of people.

2) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?

I think the enfo community would have much better input for that. My enfs are OPed as hell but they're a lower title level then tl7.

3) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?

Well, I think that engie NSD is fine, and LE nukes are acceptable (though I still think soldiers should have a small bit of reflect vs them) but I think BR being adjusted would be very fair.

Something which makes the death of the soldier incredibly likely (-50% reflect for example), but leaves the trader with about 80% reflect so that the sold's team can still kill the trader afterwards. Also, BR should be in the same nanoline as RRFE so the trader should have to hump a friendly soldier's leg again after 1-button-owning an enemy one

4) Do you think enforcers and soldiers are ok in pvm raiding or teaming and why?

Yes. Many PvM encounters are a walk in the park, but if you co-lead s42 raids every week you really DO NOT WANT any PvM nerfs for any profession!

5) If you think they are too strong, what would you change?

N/A

6) How would changes to other professions help balance this situation (if it is needed)?

N/A

Now... if you don't fill this out and pass this on to 10 friends in 10 minutes, something horrible will happen to a little 10 year old boy with cancer! GO GO GO!

[Hacre]

Well, I think that engie NSD is fine, and LE nukes are acceptable (though I still think soldiers should have a small bit of reflect vs them) but I think BR being adjusted would be very fair.

Actually I think the reflect piercing part of doubles/triples should only pierce radiation. 1v1 Soldier vs NT can be an interesting fight, however an NT pressing the double button on a called soldier shouldn't result in instasplat, imo.

Soldiers are fine in mass PvP. In fact since LE they're not the best callers from what I've seen, as they're no longer able to consistently call for 80s with light healing.

I can't really comment on Enforcers. My SL roots and Nemesis nano suggests I should be able to cause them problems, however with new rage and root resist flying around, this isn't the case. Best I usually manage against an Enfo is if I get the drop on them and make them run away, much much faster than I can hope to catch up to them. NBS ganks notwithstanding.

[Questra]

Actually I think the reflect piercing part of doubles/triples should only pierce radiation. 1v1 Soldier vs NT can be an interesting fight, however an NT pressing the double button on a called soldier shouldn't result in instasplat, imo.

Yeah, this would be a wet dream. And with that, I'm going to go to sleep...

[Hacre]

Yeah, this would be a wet dream. And with that, I'm going to go to sleep...

Added to the OP of my NT thread.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

cap sold reflects at 80%
make the AMS lock out, but lose the nanoskill debuff. (ommh during AMS downtime+grafts, etc)

lower borrow reflect to only taking a max of 40% reflects if reflects are above 30%

So, sold will always have 36%-40% minimum.

That would help imo. lower the extremes. (100% reflects or close to it is too high), but the debuffs on AMS runout are too big too.


IMO, the thing with enf in mass pvp is that while they are big HP and survivability is good, they can't do THAT much damage. They last long because callers don't call them. If there is a doc anywhere within 2 zones, that enf will get a Ich before his damn HP is out. The problem is escape if they are called and no heals inc.

Imo, maybe give rage a 40% chance to break roots or something. So, they might have to spamm it a few times to break free. That way if callers DO call enf, they will have the benefit of him having to TRY to escape, not just 1 button 90000RS and there he goes.

[Kopecz]

@ OP: What enforcer in his right mind would imub in mass PvP?

This ^

[Neccoz]

@ OP: What enforcer in his right mind would imub in mass PvP?

I might have missed something, but if we're talking mass pvp with a fixer in team, an enf with SL ess loses only 60 runspeed given he has all buffs (including rage). People in mass pvp are too crowded/rooted/snared/lagged to actually move from a single person rushing them, and quite honestly, if the guy actually runs away, do escape, tab, rinse, repeat...

[Gatester]

Stuff having nothing to do with the OP

Battlestation and duels are not mass pvp or pvm raids. If I was talking about those I would have said "Battlestation and Duels".

@ OP: What enforcer in his right mind would imub in mass PvP?

i was thinking the same thing.

Enforcers that know what they are doing.

Mass pvp = Tarasque and tower wars. Profs like fixers and advy have RS buffs, its how enforcers raid pande with SL/DB esses running, for years now. Neccoz has it spot on btw. Where are the experienced enforcers?

[Moonbolt]

ok... original runspeed = 2016
SL ess = -2500
GSF = 720
rage = 1200
calias wolf = 390

2016+720+1200+390-2500 = 1826.

closing the gap on the called target before hes either dead or has moved away is very unlikely when hes gonna have over 3k runspeed.

[Daiken]

as NT's are rare and hit soldiers for a lot less % of their health than most other professions

You dont own an NT or soldier do you? they kill is in 2 tripples or 3.. without defence against them lol

ANyway we soldiers are front line assault class, yes we are ment to take dmg
Supports are what makes us last, this is Notum wars. Now get some experience

[Hacre]

You dont own an NT or soldier do you? they kill is in 2 tripples or 3.. without defence against them lol

Uh no. You don't own an NT and don't pay attention when one is attacking your soldier do you?

NTs that use triples in a fight against a Soldier, unless it's a kill shot, are morons.

The only bigger moron than an NT that uses only triples against a Soldier, is a Soldier that dies to an NT that only uses Triples.

Perhaps TL6 Soldiers die to 2 Izgimmer's Triples.

[Perskules]

Uh no. You don't own an NT and don't pay attention when one is attacking your soldier do you?

NTs that use triples in a fight against a Soldier, unless it's a kill shot, are morons.

The only bigger moron than an NT that uses only triples against a Soldier, is a Soldier that dies to an NT that only uses Triples.

Perhaps TL6 Soldiers die to 2 Izgimmer's Triples.

it dont have difrence if nt uses doubles or triplas on soldier both kills solja very fast. most NTs uses triplas in mass pvp like in bs because they want solo kills

[Vetusleet]

I think that they are fine in mass PvP, however I would like to see evade debuff on MuIB. Something like -500 evades. I mean it is supposed to be trade of speed for uber HP =)

PS: also make ICH completely wipe doc's nano and it'll be a start in the right direction :P