Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[swedoc]

This is what i can make out of cost/regain in a strictly pvm scenario:
It's MY playstyle, if you don't agree you can think on how you play and come up with different numbers i'm sure.

For example, i don't think we will be able to easily be able to self the BEST health plunder so i'm doing the math with what i can use NOW without any hassle.


nano regained.
--------------
btw, lend nano 1000 is prolly affecting self as well, but i'm NOT counting it in atm since i'm unsure.

131 nd
13500 pool
505 nano per hit (30 hits a min) on proc, 30% chance

nanodrain proc, 30% chance with a 30 hit/min weapon = 505*30 = 15150*0,30 = 4545
guesstimating we can get 4 nanodrains drains per min = *4 drain ~20000
gth = 13500*1,5 = 20250
nanodelta = 30*131 = 3930
your enemy nano regain = 500*15 = 7500

~56225 nano regain per minute.
the big kicker here is IF we can drain a mob 4 times per minute with plag notum


nano used up
------------
-22% nano cost self atm

this is very cost dependent, do your own math if you have more/less than 22% self

gth = 1099*0,78 = 857 / min
yeeiyf = 1801*0,78 = 1404
plag notum = (1121*0,78)*4 = 3497
Diverst Damage (Premium) 20 sec dur, (1801*0,78)*3=4212
Abolish Polonium = 20 sec dur, (1755*0,78)*3= 4106 / crit buff last for 5 mins, but if you want to keep the -10k ac up spam it 3 times / min

Supreme Health Plunder 2330 * 15 / min ( (0,78*2330)*15 = 27261 /
Divest Skills (Nanite Improved) 15 sec, so *4 for 1 min, (1801*0,78)*4=5616
Plunder Skills (Nanite Improved) 15 sec, so *4 for 1 min, (1801*0,78)*4=5616
(11232 for both drains)

grand total of 52569 cost

This is very very theoretical, but it seems like you'll have to focus a bit more now, indeed.
I also still think it's stupid to have 15 sec on drains in PVM.


Edit: proc chance WILL increase to 30% according to the old perk docs we have, atm it's a bit lower.
I THINK the proc gives nane EVEN when the targets pool is empty.

[Gatester]

1) If a trader can drain nano from a target he can maintain an indefinite supply of nano pool.
2) If a mob has no nano pool left, nano cannot be drained from the target.

Therefore

3) For a trader to have an indefinite supply of nano pool, mobs must have nano for the traders to drain.

The solution to the complaints would be to either alter mobs to greatly increase their nano pools or to alter the nanos so that target nano pool is not required to gain nano back.

Simple enough. Now to further previous arguments.

A) What is best for new or inexperienced traders? If FC's goal is to make what is described as a hard to play profession easier to attract new players to the profession, what is the best way to manage the trader profession's nanos to accomplish this goal?

B) Should the trader profession be more difficult than other professions to play and how do you rank the trader profession's current difficulty to play?

C) If the trader profession should have strengths and weaknesses against other profession encounters, what should they be?


Now for my own take on these questions:

A) When I first rolled my trader about 5 years ago, I initially found it a difficult profession to play just as it said in the character creation description. The understanding of evades and the ability to utilize a full def aggro setting was not something I knew well as a new player. I was unable to properly benefit from drains because I lacked the corresponding tools, inits for my weapon and casting to adjust aggdef, and evades or AAD to avoid damage. The tools I did make use of were max health, AC's, and twinking a better weapon for more damage.

If other traders who are new to the profession have similar experiences as I had starting out, then the best way for them to survive will be simple tools. I would have an easier time in the beginning if my focus was on healing and maintaining nano. Forcing a profession to rely on complicated tools, or tools that are simply unpractical like a full def evade setup for a level 40 trader, makes the profession unattractive for use.

What is best for at least early levels of traders in pvm are simple heals and nano management based on my opinion.

B) No, at least not at early levels. If a profession becomes more challenging as the difficulty of encounters increases, then that seems logical for a player to develop and enjoy the gameplay as they progress. I currently believe the difficulty of the trader profession to play in pvm is rather high because it focuses on mechanics that are not effective at low levels, ie evading damage.

C) If I were to assign pvp strengths to the trader profession it would be against nano pool reliant professions offensively, and damage mitigaters defensively. If I were to assign pvp weaknesses to the trader profession it would be against high AR professions defensively and high CC resistant or NR based professions offensively.

To elaborate on the damage mitigaters aspect, if traders could borrow some of the defenses of every type or profession defense (not evades but consistent damage mitigation), in a way to meet their opponent half-way, I think their play type would make more sense and be more enjoyable in pvp. If the opponent has blockers, take half, if the opponent has absorbs, take half, if they have reflects, take half, and so on.d

Again this is how I would prefer the profession based on my opinion and not on the current or proposed toolsets.

[Sunny-D]

i currently have little or no ip in MC. . . if the AC drains are going to be as important a tool as the nerfing of other drains makes it seem, im gonna want that maxed, and that means giving up what little tskilling ability i have at the moment. I imagine that even a pure pvm build with no aimed shot is gonna have a hard time doing endgame tradeskills w/o seriously gimping nanoskills or evades. . .

i like the absorb/blocker drain idea, it would be very useful as i see us having a hella time killing profs with serious damage mitigation, it also fits into the overall trader theme of draining opponents abilities to use against them

i also just cant see the logic of reducing drain duration to 15 sec, and MORE than halving the effect on the target. Short and powerful or long and not so powerful makes sense, short and not very effective puts em in the class of the old ac drains.

[Esqi]

Well short and powerfull is better than long and OP :P

[Plat150]

1) If a trader can drain nano from a target he can maintain an indefinite supply of nano pool.
2) If a mob has no nano pool left, nano cannot be drained from the target.

Therefore

3) For a trader to have an indefinite supply of nano pool, mobs must have nano for the traders to drain.

The solution to the complaints would be to either alter mobs to greatly increase their nano pools or to alter the nanos so that target nano pool is not required to gain nano back.

Simple enough. Now to further previous arguments.

A) What is best for new or inexperienced traders? If FC's goal is to make what is described as a hard to play profession easier to attract new players to the profession, what is the best way to manage the trader profession's nanos to accomplish this goal?

B) Should the trader profession be more difficult than other professions to play and how do you rank the trader profession's current difficulty to play?

C) If the trader profession should have strengths and weaknesses against other profession encounters, what should they be?


Now for my own take on these questions:

A) When I first rolled my trader about 5 years ago, I initially found it a difficult profession to play just as it said in the character creation description. The understanding of evades and the ability to utilize a full def aggro setting was not something I knew well as a new player. I was unable to properly benefit from drains because I lacked the corresponding tools, inits for my weapon and casting to adjust aggdef, and evades or AAD to avoid damage. The tools I did make use of were max health, AC's, and twinking a better weapon for more damage.

If other traders who are new to the profession have similar experiences as I had starting out, then the best way for them to survive will be simple tools. I would have an easier time in the beginning if my focus was on healing and maintaining nano. Forcing a profession to rely on complicated tools, or tools that are simply unpractical like a full def evade setup for a level 40 trader, makes the profession unattractive for use.

What is best for at least early levels of traders in pvm are simple heals and nano management based on my opinion.

B) No, at least not at early levels. If a profession becomes more challenging as the difficulty of encounters increases, then that seems logical for a player to develop and enjoy the gameplay as they progress. I currently believe the difficulty of the trader profession to play in pvm is rather high because it focuses on mechanics that are not effective at low levels, ie evading damage.

C) If I were to assign pvp strengths to the trader profession it would be against nano pool reliant professions offensively, and damage mitigaters defensively. If I were to assign pvp weaknesses to the trader profession it would be against high AR professions defensively and high CC resistant or NR based professions offensively.

To elaborate on the damage mitigaters aspect, if traders could borrow some of the defenses of every type or profession defense (not evades but consistent damage mitigation), in a way to meet their opponent half-way, I think their play type would make more sense and be more enjoyable in pvp. If the opponent has blockers, take half, if the opponent has absorbs, take half, if they have reflects, take half, and so on.d

Again this is how I would prefer the profession based on my opinion and not on the current or proposed toolsets.

I am not a second account of anyone and what I said is not a flame bait. You are a lousy trader and you don't know how to play the profession. You can't mezz an add. You cant win with an add and your healing sucks at 202.

All of this means you don't know whatever it is you are talking about the profession.

[Gatester]

I am not a second account of anyone and what I said is not a flame bait. You are a lousy trader and you don't know how to play the profession. You can't mezz an add. You cant win with an add and your healing sucks at 202.

All of this means you don't know whatever it is you are talking about the profession.

Definately someone's alt, no one is this much of a noob on purpose.

[Bonghigs]

Well short and powerfull is better than long and OP :P

I (and i believe most traders) completely agree with this. Unfortunately, what this document provides is short and underpowered.

[mcnurja]

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes burn in hell traders yes yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!

[Noer]

For the most part I think most of these changes makes sense.

Except - traders are left with no defense. And no - the health funnels are not enough defense to keep a TL7 trader alive. If you have to rely on a nano that gets countered a lot in order to survive its not really defense. So either this has to go to like 10% NR defense check or some other means of defense has to be found - and even with that I am not even sure its enough defense to keep us alive.

I know we didn't have a whole lot of defense before either - but at least the health hagglers gave us a bit.

And with the proposed changes we loose almost all our hit and run offense.

[Cryfreman]

For the most part I think most of these changes makes sense.

Except - traders are left with no defense. And no - the health funnels are not enough defense to keep a TL7 trader alive. If you have to rely on a nano that gets countered a lot in order to survive its not really defense. So either this has to go to like 10% NR defense check or some other means of defense has to be found - and even with that I am not even sure its enough defense to keep us alive.

Working like MP's blockers then, maybe they should put a full nano lockout on it even if it fails so at last some other Prof feels our pain
Seems obvious to me fc have zero idea of end game pvp, compare trader docs to engi, enfo and crat

[Shareida]

Working like MP's blockers then, maybe they should put a full nano lockout on it even if it fails so at last some other Prof feels our pain
Seems obvious to me fc have zero idea of end game pvp, compare trader docs to engi, enfo and crat

If that "lockout" means +aao and a mild DOT, i can live with it.

[Cryfreman]

If that "lockout" means +aao and a mild DOT, i can live with it.

aoo on target? and the lockout is a nano recharge so no using any nanos, still, I was kinda saying it in jest

[Gatester]

For the most part I think most of these changes makes sense.

Except - traders are left with no defense. And no - the health funnels are not enough defense to keep a TL7 trader alive. If you have to rely on a nano that gets countered a lot in order to survive its not really defense. So either this has to go to like 10% NR defense check or some other means of defense has to be found - and even with that I am not even sure its enough defense to keep us alive.

I know we didn't have a whole lot of defense before either - but at least the health hagglers gave us a bit.

And with the proposed changes we loose almost all our hit and run offense.

I think FC has heard enough suggestions that they will offer us at least one reasonable static defense or working emergency tool. I was thinking of a "when attacked activate this defense" type nano for reactionary survival, but then we have issues of people adapting to it so I'm not sure that is a good idea either

If the health drain had a 90% NR def check it would land most of the time against all but MAs and Enforcers. MA's are greatly effected by drains and a crit removal buff and enforcers can kill you with regulars but the only true threat is an alpha, which is being heavily nerfed post balancing. Anything more and traders could equip %nano damage gear, go max defensive, and spam the health drain to kill people like a massive nuke. Although this is mixing current knowledge with post-balancing so even this could be entirely innacurate.

[Saetos]

New summary added to 1st page.

Please look over it and critique it if you can - this is what'll be sent to Kintaii and Genele officially for review.

[Shareida]

* NanoPool maintaining will be a nightmare, considering the spiked cost of nanos, the reduced duration, and the need to constantly update the drains so that they do not run out on the target. NanoPool drains will not give back NanoPool if the target has no nanopool to drain, and considering the massive amounts the nano can drain (up to 5k) NanoPool will vanish on the target extremely quickly.

Noting much to add, except that Trader's won't be of any use against boss type monsters in Raid encounters, due to the mentioned Nano pool dependance.

[Bonghigs]

Basically, we are now meant to sling debuffs like mad, due to the very low recharge time of them (1-2 seconds), short durations, shortish cooldowns, and our Health drains becoming actually very strong nukes. Every debuff now has a purpose, and has values now to where it doesn't feel extraneous.

I don't like this wording Saetos, as it implies that right now we cast drains and sit back and /afk. This is not the case for a trader in end-game pvp if they want to be any good. I'm constantly spamming heals, health drains, nano drains (RK and SL), recasting CP/IS and that doesn't count spamming debuffs on anyone else who has just entered the pvp area (mass pvp talk here) and speciality nanos (no good trader spams GTH, they save it for ppl worth using it on or maybe a situation when they need to use the shield; BR; etc).

My point is that to be ultra-effective as a trader we are already spamming casting nanos non-stop and with drains going down to 15 seconds i just don't see how we will have time to do all of this going forward. Don't get me wrong, 3:30 is a bit long (cough use virus scanners cough) but i think 15 seconds is just too short.

[sultryvoltron]

* Enforcers become even more ridiculously powerful than before, because our inability to drain much AAO from them (total of 276, instead of previously 1500) will allow them to get in range and absolutely floor us with stuns and strong weapons and associated perks.

How do you balance this? If you increase drains to be effective on Enfos, they are too effective on some other professions. If you leave the drains as weak as they are proposed, high AR profs will rip Traders in two.

It's possible to circumvent an emergency tool, so I feel it needs to come in some sort of static buff, or always available debuff.

Also, AOE roots have a 10s longer cooldown than Crats. Both AOE and Single roots have 3s shorter duration, 10% higher NR check, 5% lower chance to break than for Crats. Notice how the Trader roots have a lower chance to break, which means Crat roots aren't favored in that aspect. I don't know if the goal here is standardization, or randomly selecting values that are kinda close giving different profs different advantages to their roots/snares.

P.S. Great job here Saetos. Top notch job at being a professional.

[Niles]

New summary added to 1st page.

Please look over it and critique it if you can - this is what'll be sent to Kintaii and Genele officially for review.

I can only say that for my point of view, you have a very good grasp of outstanding issues. Hard to accumulate and agree to all points of the forum, but you have done so eloquently.

[Wrangeline]

I don't quite get this bit:

"15 second durations on drains... meh. In PVP it's manageable and at least fair"

15 seconds is not "manageable" or fair in my opinion (in pvp).

A lot of people have voiced that 15 seconds is incredibly short (and not just for PvM) so I don't see it as an extremely good idea to make it sound as if we all think 15 sec is "fine" in PvP

Other than that, glad you are putting effort into this. Keep it up

[Bonghigs]

I don't quite get this bit:

"15 second durations on drains... meh. In PVP it's manageable and at least fair"

15 seconds is not "manageable" or fair in my opinion (in pvp).

A lot of people have voiced that 15 seconds is incredibly short (and not just for PvM) so I don't see it as an extremely good idea to make it sound as if we all think 15 sec is "fine" in PvP

Other than that, glad you are putting effort into this. Keep it up

I agree. As has been said before (albeit sarcastically by a troll), drains should either be short and powerful or long and weak. What we have no are short and weak, which just doesn't do.

The sad truth of the matter is that for many professions a trader would be better off not bothering to cast the drains at all. Not that we have other tools that would be useful instead, but the drains would be useless so why bother...