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Thread: 18.7.0.20 - Traders!

  1. #21
    I've gotten a message or two regarding concerns about the cooldowns of some of our nanos, the drains in particular. Here's the recharge and cooldown of all of our nanolines:

    DEPRIVE/DIVEST/SABOTAGE: 1 second recharge, 6 second cooldown (10 seconds for Industrial Sabotage)
    RANSACK/PLUNDER/PROTECTION: 1 second recharge, 6 second cooldown (10 seconds for Corporate Protection)
    MY ENEMY'S ENEMY: 2 second recharge, 180 second (3 minute) cooldown
    YOUR ENEMY'S ENEMY: 2 second recharge, 120 second (2 minute) cooldown
    THEFT HUMIDITY: 1 second recharge, 120 second (2 minute) cooldown
    GRAND THEFT HUMIDITY: 1 second recharge, 60 second (1 minute) cooldown
    PLAGIARIZE NOTUM: 2 second recharge, 8 second cooldown (of only the SL nanodrains, Pay the Pauper line is unaffected)
    DRAW AC: 6.49 second recharge (probably bugged), 12 second cooldown
    SIPHON AC: 1.5 second recharge, 12 second cooldown
    EVISCERATE DEFENSE: 1.5 second recharge, 3 second cooldown (the prep nano)
    ATTENUATE DEFENSE: 1.5 second recharge, 6 second cooldown (the heavy nano)
    ABOLISH BISMUTH: 1 second recharge, 8 second cooldown

    If I didn't name a nanoline, they have no cooldown. And again as noted, Improved Health Plunder (the Bronto Burger quest nano) has had its recharge nearly halved.
    Last edited by Saetos; Feb 13th, 2015 at 15:59:58.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetos View Post
    I've gotten a message or two regarding concerns about the cooldowns of some of our nanos, the drains in particular. Here's the recharge and cooldown of all of our nanolines:

    DEPRIVE/DIVEST/SABOTAGE: 1 second recharge, 6 second cooldown (10 seconds for Industrial Sabotage)
    RANSACK/PLUNDER/PROTECTION: 1 second recharge, 6 second cooldown (10 seconds for Corporate Protection)
    MY ENEMY'S ENEMY: 2 second recharge, 180 second (3 minute) cooldown
    THEFT HUMIDITY: 1 second recharge, 120 second (2 minute) cooldown
    GRAND THEFT HUMIDITY: 1 second recharge, 60 second (1 minute) cooldown
    PLAGIARIZE NOTUM: 2 second recharge, 8 second cooldown (of only the SL nanodrains, Pay the Pauper line is unaffected)
    DRAW AC: 6.49 second recharge (probably bugged), 12 second cooldown
    SIPHON AC: 1.5 second recharge, 12 second cooldown
    EVISCERATE DEFENSE: 1.5 second recharge, 3 second cooldown (the prep nano)
    ATTENUATE DEFENSE: 1.5 second recharge, 6 second cooldown (the heavy nano)
    ABOLISH BISMUTH: 1 second recharge, 8 second cooldown

    If I didn't name a nanoline, they have no cooldown. And again as noted, Improved Health Plunder (the Bronto Burger quest nano) has had its recharge nearly halved.
    Are the 3s Cast Time caps still in place for the SL AC Drains?
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  3. #23
    Seems like it, yeah. 2 or 3 seconds.

    Testing in PVP... it's definitely a whole new ballgame. We absolutely need the jump on certain professions, especially those that just gained SneakAttack (MAs, Keepers) or we're toast.
    Last edited by Saetos; Feb 12th, 2015 at 07:27:31.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  4. #24
    imo traders could use some insta defence that actually provides some decent defence for a short period (i.e. something to eat MR alpha or capping special onslaught)...

    Like, this nano could use a rework:

    http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=263293 for lower levels

    http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=260761 for TL7

    Something like: 12s 40% reflect + 60% damage to nano until nano <1000 or something would be ideal

    That gives you a few seconds to get your drains sorted at start of fight, or soak some damage from an alpha

  5. #25
    I would rather we get Shutdown Skills back. As it stands, TL7 PVP relies on the Trader having prep time for her to do anything. We're on a relatively even keel once our drains are online and we can control the flow of battle - at least in a one-on-one scenario - but TL7 characters have VASTLY more perks and excellent weapons to cut down our HP. If Protection (130% NR) doesn't land, then we can't protect ourselves and probably will not be able to throw out Vital Shock to buy us not only those crucial few seconds but also recover a modicum of HP. Especially against Pistol professions this will ensure our death.

    This is not a problem whatsoever in the tl5 spectrum. Sans Vital Shock we still have pretty much everything we will get at tl7, just in miniature, and due to weaker weapons, weaker perks, and less collective NR, a TL5 Trader will be able to play her opponent like a conductor, almost to a frightening degree. Yet at TL7, we are one resisted Protection/Divest away from becoming a splatter on the floor.

    If there is going to be true balance made between the professions here there must also be a way to give us a fighting chance when we see an opponent coming to us, at all levels, not just tl5.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  6. #26
    Out of curiosity, do I have to upgrade my Diamondine Kick Pistol with the apf thingy before "perfecting" it? All the upgrade did was remove the atrox req and slam a silly lvl req on the gun.
    Why play melee when crat pets can do your job?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldebeast View Post
    Simple, why the melee hate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    ...Melee people/pets are needed...

  7. #27
    I'm glad SS is being removed. I think its crit decrease combined with very low NR check made this nano pretty OP at lower lvls and for ganking purposes. I'm fully aware of trader's squishiness (is that a word, lol) but SS was more of an offensive nano rather than defensive one. This is why I think McKnuckle's option is better. In duel scenario you would still gain some time to land your drains and other debuffs without wtfpwning others under 5 seconds (not unusual at lower lvls) or preventing your opponent from doing anything before your drain lands. In other words I'm all for removing (or toning them down at the very least) nanos that pretty much wins you a combat at the very start.
    Last edited by Scottik; Feb 13th, 2015 at 14:25:14.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    I'm glad SS is being removed. I think its crit decrease combined with very low NR check made this nano pretty OP at lower lvls and for ganking purposes. I'm fully aware of trader's squishiness (is that a word, lol) but SS was more of an offensive nano rather than defensive one. This is why I think McKnuckle's option is better. In duel scenario you would still gain some time to land your drains and other debuffs without wtfpwning others under 5 seconds (not unusual at lower lvls) or preventing your opponent from doing anything before your drain lands. In other words I'm all for removing (or toning them down at the very least) nanos that pretty much wins you a combat at the very start.
    I'm sorry, but I fail to see how a nano with a 3 second duration is in any shape or form an offensive one. SS is by and large the single reason why we actually possess any fighting chance against alpha profs, remove it and we might aswell not bother PvPing at all
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by wyldebeast View Post
    Out of curiosity, do I have to upgrade my Diamondine Kick Pistol with the apf thingy before "perfecting" it? All the upgrade did was remove the atrox req and slam a silly lvl req on the gun.
    You need to make it a Low Recoil DKP, then just slap a Screwdriver on it.

    And then have three thousand WeaponSmithing but we're working on that.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    I'm glad SS is being removed. I think its crit decrease combined with very low NR check made this nano pretty OP at lower lvls and for ganking purposes. I'm fully aware of trader's squishiness (is that a word, lol) but SS was more of an offensive nano rather than defensive one. This is why I think McKnuckle's option is better. In duel scenario you would still gain some time to land your drains and other debuffs without wtfpwning others under 5 seconds (not unusual at lower lvls) or preventing your opponent from doing anything before your drain lands. In other words I'm all for removing (or toning them down at the very least) nanos that pretty much wins you a combat at the very start.
    Then the solution is simple - remove the positive element on the Trader. We don't /need/ the 100% crit boost (I agree, it's rather powerful), we just need something that'll "short-out" the opponent for a few crucial seconds every so often.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetos View Post
    Then the solution is simple - remove the positive element on the Trader. We don't /need/ the 100% crit boost (I agree, it's rather powerful), we just need something that'll "short-out" the opponent for a few crucial seconds every so often.
    The Crit boost is realistically irrelevant in PvP against all except low HP builds. And who really does that anymore? Even if they had, capping attacks is still going to happen regardless of Crit outcome.

    There is literally nothing wrong with SS in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by raggy View Post
    there is literally nothing wrong with ss in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of evade profs.
    qft
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    I'm sorry, but I fail to see how a nano with a 3 second duration is in any shape or form an offensive one. SS is by and large the single reason why we actually possess any fighting chance against alpha profs, remove it and we might aswell not bother PvPing at all
    You should read my post again then. I'm concerned about the effect this nano has mainly on lowbie pvp (tl1-3 and 4 to substantial degree) where trader with 199 ithaca can cap crit on you no matter what HP build you have and shuts down your ability to defend yourself against incoming alpha almost completely at the same time. Sure, locking it to lvl150+ or so would make it much more reasonable but then again if defence against incoming alpha is your only concern then improving nanos that are already ingame and serve for this very purpose sounds a tad more reasonable to me.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    You should read my post again then. I'm concerned about the effect this nano has mainly on lowbie pvp (tl1-3 and 4 to substantial degree) where trader with 199 ithaca can cap crit on you no matter what HP build you have and shuts down your ability to defend yourself against incoming alpha almost completely at the same time. Sure, locking it to lvl150+ or so would make it much more reasonable but then again if defence against incoming alpha is your only concern then improving nanos that are already ingame and serve for this very purpose sounds a tad more reasonable to me.
    Which is why I advocated the removal of the positive effect on the Trader. The fact that the Ithaca exists is paramount to why we don't need a humongous buff like that in low level PVP - while cap is 30%, Chaotic Assumption and/or Kizzermoles very easily provide the rest of the damage necessary for an instant kill - though it also doesn't justify just ripping out the nano entirely.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    You should read my post again then. I'm concerned about the effect this nano has mainly on lowbie pvp (tl1-3 and 4 to substantial degree) where trader with 199 ithaca can cap crit on you no matter what HP build you have and shuts down your ability to defend yourself against incoming alpha almost completely at the same time. Sure, locking it to lvl150+ or so would make it much more reasonable but then again if defence against incoming alpha is your only concern then improving nanos that are already ingame and serve for this very purpose sounds a tad more reasonable to me.
    There are a million and one problems with Lowbie PvP. While yes, SS may contribute in some small fashion, you fail to see how little it means in the big bad scheme of things. If you want to complain about something Traders do at low level to horrifically unbalance the proceedings, go have a look at all the JAME Blaster Traders around level 23 that have cropped up. SS or not, they will cap every single time and they have Burst to boot.

    Neutering high level play to give the impression of balance at a low level is a lesson in futility, especially in AO. The PvP in this game is many things, but balanced is not one of them and it never will be by design, you can thank aggressive twinking for that.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  16. #36
    Then something has to change there.

    1) You completely remove the JAME. It's a super powerful weapon for its requirements and as shown, Traders don't even have a problem with the Burst requirement, to say nothing of Assault Rifle. However, you deny Soldiers and Doctors a potential leveling option (and Doctors have used this gun well into TL6).

    2) Nerf the JAME - particularly by dropping its max damage from 425 to 300 or even 250, and then dropping its min damage to 150. This would neuter the gun for Soldiers but still keep it relatively good for Doctors

    3) Titlelock the JAME. This would further necessitate a mechanic where failing the TL lock would put it OE or unusable. Soldiers and Doctors wouldn't be too affected by this.

    4) The most extreme solution: prevent the ability to ladder drains, essentially requiring a 3:30 cool down on Divest/Plunder. This is not recommended as it kills a major element of the class from day 1.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There are a million and one problems with Lowbie PvP. While yes, SS may contribute in some small fashion, you fail to see how little it means in the big bad scheme of things. If you want to complain about something Traders do at low level to horrifically unbalance the proceedings, go have a look at all the JAME Blaster Traders around level 23 that have cropped up. SS or not, they will cap every single time and they have Burst to boot.

    Neutering high level play to give the impression of balance at a low level is a lesson in futility, especially in AO. The PvP in this game is many things, but balanced is not one of them and it never will be by design, you can thank aggressive twinking for that.
    I'm fully aware it's not the only issue low to mid lvl twinks have to deal with and I also understand it's not possible to fully balance PvP across all TL ranges. But I believe it's possible to make it more fair without nerfing or unbalancing other TLs. Once again according to your words your only reason to keep SS ingame is for defence reasons (surviving through alpha) which is something I can understand however it should not cripple opponent at the same time. And 3s is plenty for unleashing your alpha. Saetos solution seems reasonable but it'd remain OP tool for ganking. Take trader vs sol for example: trader ganks sol, landing SS first, then unleashing alpha and landing first (pre-drained) drain just for good measures. Even if sol manages to survive thru trader's alpha he'd be done for because he could no longer cast TMS and there's nothing he could do to prevent that (other than not getting flagged). Because of this I still think some sort of short-duration nanobot or reflect shield would be better for your purpose. But then again I'm no trader pro so I might be wrong. I just know what SS does to other profs at lower TLs from experience (from both sides of view).
    Last edited by Scottik; Feb 13th, 2015 at 21:30:04.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetos View Post
    3) Titlelock the JAME. This would further necessitate a mechanic where failing the TL lock would put it OE or unusable. Soldiers and Doctors wouldn't be too affected by this.
    Or you could just raise Burst reqs by substantial amount (I have no idea what would be the right number tho).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    Take trader vs sol for example: trader ganks sol, landing SS first, then unleashing alpha and landing first (pre-drained) drain just for good measures. Even if sol manages to survive thru trader's alpha he'd be done for because he could no longer cast TMS and there's nothing he could do to prevent that (other than not getting flagged).
    This right here is the problem. Traders are so hilariously reliant on getting the first cast in a fight, if they don't they are completely worthless. All of the arguments against SS are simply "If the Trader gets the drop on the target". Sorry but that really is not a valid argument.

    If Shades get the drop on the target...
    If Agents get the drop on the target...

    etc.

    Any profession is good if they get the chance to catch an opponent off guard, but only Traders have no method of surviving if the first strike fails.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    This right here is the problem. Traders are so hilariously reliant on getting the first cast in a fight, if they don't they are completely worthless. All of the arguments against SS are simply "If the Trader gets the drop on the target". Sorry but that really is not a valid argument.

    If Shades get the drop on the target...
    If Agents get the drop on the target...

    etc.

    Any profession is good if they get the chance to catch an opponent off guard, but only Traders have no method of surviving if the first strike fails.
    Then again, if you had nano that would help you effectively withstand alpha (Improved Nanobot Defense or something along those lines) you would have time to debuff your opponent while the opponent would have time to do something about that (casting TMS, landing UBT etc.). If shade or agent jumps on me, then yeah, I can die rather fast, but at least there's something I can do to prevent it from happening if I'm quick enough. I could cast TMS/AMS as a sol, pop coon+rage and run away as an enf, cast CH or BI as a doc etc. Sure, some profs have it easier than others but point is if you are SS'd all you can do is to run away (and coon doesn't really help at lower lvls especially since trader's alpha is virtually instant). Unless you get rooted with graft. Then you're doomed.

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