Are Enfs Even Going To Be Needed?

[Towerblock]

<insert random non-point information here>

Talking to you is like purposely pushing my face into a sharp spike. Every time you and I have a debate or even a simple conversation, it leaps from facts and figures and reporting of what is going on, into stupid whirling games of overblown non-sense ad nauseum from you.

I conclude you have nothing useful to add to anything. I am embarassed we share human genetic makeup. If you must find a toilet to throw up in, i'm quite certain the Balance Discussion threads have no lack of like minded folks.
---------------------------------------------


Back to enforcers: I feel that main bosses can, and should require a main tank. That main tank should be the prof who is specialized at doing so. If FC wishes to create mini-bosses to add to boss encounter events, that is a great idea. Those bosses can and should be tanked by anyone who can step up to the job. If the role of a off tank can be that any of the taunting profs can have a gear and build setup for that role, then more power to them. But, I will not capitulate to a raid situation where enforcer's will not longer be in demand. I will not capitulate to a raid where any role other than a DPS role can be redundant. Docs should be top choice of healing as well. If this is the future that FC is hoping to carve out for themselves then this a good thing. However, I'd like to stress that by giving people flexibility in roles, you might as well expect one of the superstars of that profession to go beyond the norm in certain areas and expectations.

So, if a soldier/keeper/advy/shade/MA are all being given abilities that exceed the main tanks role (that being an enforcer) then you doom an already dying game of redundancy in all roles where no one feels special or needed. Its that specialization that makes social games (specifically MMO's) what they are in terms of community involvement.

There are far more soldier's/keeper's/advies and MA's then there are enforcers, and players will 99% of the time find ways around things that are meant to be limiting factors. This will take the spectrum of flavours: from outright doing things to purposely bug certain aspects of the game, to purposeful exclusions of certain profs from participation from events (when is the last time you saw someone need an MP in a full raid before?) to outright verbally slandering profs to the point where the larger community takes a blanket negative stance on them.

The history of AO's playerbase is chock full of that sort of thing. That is the truth, boys and girls. If someone on the development staff thinks this wont happen, they would be lying to themselves.

Helpful developer insight posted here.

[sultryvoltron]

Agent damage is not worse than adventurer damage. Agents can push their DPM to equal or better levels than adventurers. You have no argument.

This is very VERY wrong.

You are drawing a conclusion based on 100% completely max DD Agent setups, probably using Bows, that require Crit Utils, Crit Huds, Crit Armor, CSS or CC, Arul Sabas, and possibly Mimic Enforcer or Trader. Or, said Agent is using the infamous multi-AS. Either way, this Agent gives up all chances of tanking to maximize this damage output.

Then you compare that, most likely, to completely defensively setup Advys.

For comparison, my Agent is currently wearing +HP/-Cost armor since I'm mostly doing solo and small group PvM atm. While tanking DB2 with a Crat/Agent combo I hit 2k regular hits, 3k crits with roughly 30% crit chance with slightly more DPM from perks and Procs.

[Bagooka]

only got 1 thing to say about all this :P

WE are TANKS! Suck it up, f.. the rest and show em what you guys are .. drop the complains and make the best outa the new tools we get .. show em you master your class and you got nothing to worry about , WE ARE ENFORCERS ! WE ARE TANKS, AND WE LOOK DAMN GOOD WHEN WE DO OUR JOB "

ps : all those not atrox reroll and make a real enfo :P

Ba****a
The Enut
Tank of The Union
RK1

[Hometown]

Talking to you is like purposely pushing my face into a sharp spike. Every time you and I have a debate or even a simple conversation, it leaps from facts and figures and reporting of what is going on, into stupid whirling games of overblown non-sense ad nauseum from you.

I conclude you have nothing useful to add to anything. I am embarassed we share human genetic makeup. If you must find a toilet to throw up in, i'm quite certain the Balance Discussion threads have no lack of like minded folks.

And I thought I am alone on this.

[Saetos]

Agent damage is not worse than adventurer damage. Agents can push their DPM to equal or better levels than adventurers. You have no argument.

AHAHAHAHAHA....

Good one.

Adventurer perk damage is much faster, they have a constant spike-special (Backstab or FullAuto) that can be used out of sneak, are not affected (much) by crit decrease on certain mobs (in which a lot of SL mobs, sided especially, seem to have in spades).

Rifle Agents suffer greatly from the fact that their damage cannot flow in a constant stream over time. Their perks rely on chains and sub-chains to execute, not to mention the multi-second attack times of almost all of their perks, and they solely have Fling as a special to use during combat. While a stalwart Agent can skyrocket his crit chance to near constant 100%, the fact remains that Adventurers either have Burst/FullAuto, which contributes 6-8k/9s + 11-13k/11s, on top of their own Fling, or Backstab, which will almost always hit for 13k/20s and, when used in a crit setup to maximize the chance of a 13k, melee damage skyrockets.

[Blessed]

only got 1 thing to say about all this :P

WE are TANKS! Suck it up, f.. the rest and show em what you guys are .. drop the complains and make the best outa the new tools we get .. show em you master your class and you got nothing to worry about , WE ARE ENFORCERS ! WE ARE TANKS, AND WE LOOK DAMN GOOD WHEN WE DO OUR JOB "

ps : all those not atrox reroll and make a real enfo :P

Ba****a
The Enut
Tank of The Union
RK1

Dear god u missed out more than i did past few years and ive been outta game year and half....fckn NM enf now tanks same as my own IF not bttr(God i hope not 'cos ima reroll:P)...been to sec 42 raid in which NM enf had spot for main tank instead like 6-7 troxes(me included---which lead to me not going to sec 42 for like 3-4 weeks till they started beging for me again^^). And might wanna recheck our new toolsets FC is making us more like bad version of keepers then acctuall tanks...aura's wtf is that we are ENFORCER's pure blunt headtroughwall proffession only good thing is they put in team ess and stuff like that makes easyer buff whole team as normally we do buff every1 anyhow rest is just junk in my opinion.....

[lainbr]

I fixed that for you because you're assuming that's a problem with the enfo toolset when it's not. A good players know how to deal with that. I don't think enfo toolsets should be adjusted for easymode gameplay to accommodate people that are dumb enough to take aggro they can't handle.

So... You call noob shades that perks, soldiers that FA and MAs that crits? LOL

[Obtena]

Glad you think it's funny. I'm not changing my position though. Maybe you want tanking as an enfo dumbed down so that every noob can act irresponsibly with their toolsets, I don't. Maybe you just aren't taunting enough to hold aggro like you should be. If they are outfitted to pull aggro from a good PVM setup enfo, they better know how to lose it if they can't handle the damage because that kind of gameplay is just stupid on their part. That's not an enfo-taunting problem. That's a noob that doesn't know how to play problem.

[Gatester]

This is very VERY wrong.

You are drawing a conclusion based on 100% completely max DD Agent setups, probably using Bows, that require Crit Utils, Crit Huds, Crit Armor, CSS or CC, Arul Sabas, and possibly Mimic Enforcer or Trader. Or, said Agent is using the infamous multi-AS. Either way, this Agent gives up all chances of tanking to maximize this damage output.

Then you compare that, most likely, to completely defensively setup Advys.

For comparison, my Agent is currently wearing +HP/-Cost armor since I'm mostly doing solo and small group PvM atm. While tanking DB2 with a Crat/Agent combo I hit 2k regular hits, 3k crits with roughly 30% crit chance with slightly more DPM from perks and Procs.

The adventurer toolset cannot massively exceed agents simply because people say it will. If you actually calculate the damage benefit of perks then it is incredibly minor, maybe 5000 to 15000 points per minute at the most. Agent crit chance is also quite high, and contrasts the damage add and slightly higher perk damage adventurers have.

To contrast your 2k regulars and 3k crits, adventurer regulars with the jobe pistol are incredibly low because of the MBS, and they do not always hit 15000 FA's either because of the 10 bullet clip. The reflex/twitch pistols do nice damage, but they benefit more from crits which the jobe pistol gains better FA's from but lessens their damage from regular hits and burst when sacrificing damage add. A ranged advy cannot maximize damage add and crit chance simultaneously, thus those claims are impossible to meet in a realistic situation. Ranged advy damage can be slightly higher than agents, but not enough to claim that ranged advy damage would let them tank where an agent could not.

1he is similar, in that the weapons hardly benefit from crits at all, much like agent rifles. While the 1he options do produce a large amount of regular hit damage, the crit benefit of agents should still balance this out. While you can include backstab in this argument, in any case that one can use backstab for a possible 13000 hit every 20 seconds, I can also point out that agents can utilize a 13000 AS every 11 seconds. When tanking, neither agent nor adventurer would have use of those abilities and would rely, again, on their normal damage contributions.



My first claim that adventurers and agents do similar damage was based on the agent and adventurer using the same relative setup. There is nothing in the adventurer toolset to push a standard setup to incredible levels of damage and the same is true for agents, they are both moderate DD in a standard setup at best.

My second claim was based on a setup that maximizes damage dealing potential. In this case, the toolset of agents which can utilize a high crit weapon, high crit setup, and supportive damage from pets or nukes will far surpass the damage capable by adventurers. The setup would not be viable as a tank but it is viable in a discussion concerning profession capabilities and agents are more capable than adventurers given enough sacrifice.


Simply saying I am not right without offering evidence to back it up may be effective for discussions but not in the eyes of people who actually test these calculations (not directed at you sultry as you offered at least something about your agent). Both professions have tools to increase their damage, but nither profession has a standard way of reaching enormous damage levels. If someone can offer an aspect for adventurers that puts them 25000 to 50000 DPM over agents that is not also countered by an aspect in the agent toolset, then I will agree that I was incorrect.

[Biancha]

been to sec 42 raid in which NM enf had spot for main tank instead like 6-7 troxes(me included---which lead to me not going to sec 42 for like 3-4 weeks

o.O

I'm a solitus 215 enforcer that has tanked s42 and looked cuter than you doing it. Nothing to boycott raids over though :O

btw: I think I will still be wanted and tanking raids even after all the changes coming. Tanking big raids sucessfully will be more work, more intense, but will also give us more chance to shine. Tanking smaller stuff will be like it is now; we are already not needed for that stuff. You big brave tanks should try not be so scared and get to work ^_^

[Blessed]

o.O

I'm a solitus 215 enforcer that has tanked s42 and looked cuter than you doing it. Nothing to boycott raids over though :O

btw: I think I will still be wanted and tanking raids even after all the changes coming. Tanking big raids sucessfully will be more work, more intense, but will also give us more chance to shine. Tanking smaller stuff will be like it is now; we are already not needed for that stuff. You big brave tanks should try not be so scared and get to work ^_^

Well IF u use wolf for trickle on RS in sec 42 u can't look cuter is all ima say on that subject. And my enf is cute...i can make my groopies post here to proove). <3

[Hvyshadows]

Well IF u use wolf for trickle on RS in sec 42 u can't look cuter is all ima say on that subject.

Actually, she can. Apparently you have never seen a wolf morph with pigtails...

[Blessed]

Actually, she can. Apparently you have never seen a wolf morph with pigtails...

If/when i see that ima ask her to marry me hell ill even find 300 engagement ring just for teh occasion cos i r piggytail fan.

[Kopecz]

If/when i see that ima ask her to marry me

It's a morph only available to Bianchas called Bia-Morph and adds blonde pigtails to all meshes.

[Biancha]

my enf is cute...i can make my groopies post here to proove). <3

lol fair enough

& omg i made kopecz's signature!

[sultryvoltron]

I can also point out that agents can utilize a 13000 AS every 11 seconds.

Using questionable game mechanics that we are not allowed to discuss on the forums. Or by being a bad teammate.

[Gatester]

The agent and advy disucssions asside, my point is that it does not matter what tools a profession has if no one will utilize that profession over our own.

If you give TMS to doctors, would most soldiers feel insulted? Yes, until they realize that every doctor using TMS dies.

If you gave Mongo to traders, would enforcers scream and rant that traders could tank now? Yes, except no trader would ever tank a raid simply because having one part of several necessary tools for a good tank is not enough.


Unless Keepers or Soldier recieve spammable AOE taunts, we are irreplaceable tanks.

[Otansaanpas]

But I see Shades, Soljas, NTs and MAs dyeing cause NOOB Enf didnt managed to keep aggro. 18k Taunt on last single taunt is a joke. Btw, this is the only enf nerf i'm really against.

obtena misplaced the 'fix' :/
there is no way anyone could overagro properly played enfo. I've tried..

[lainbr]

obtena misplaced the 'fix' :/
there is no way anyone could overagro properly played enfo. I've tried..

Yes true. In current state with 50k taunt on imalice. Now imagine tha it is 18k taunt. Can you still afirm there are no way to overagro?

[Obtena]

^^ No, but then it's back on those aggro-grabbing players to play non-stupidly.