The Problem with PvP Level Balance

[Chereee]

I know of a 210 soldier that can kill 75% of 220 twinks.

Are you implying that because you know this 210 soldier that can kill 75% of 220 twinks, that there's no problem between 207s and 220s? Unless you can claim it as a generality, it's as strong an argument as 'I know this NR 165 Agent that can pwn any 207 NT, therefore 165 vs 207 is fine'. Wait, now that I think about it, if you can claim it as a generality, it's a stong argument on why 220s need more love when facing 210s.

What should be the generality: X-level is at a severe disadvantage against 220s, but still can be effective against them in numbers or strategy. I don't believe 207 is that X-level due to the behavior of 207s, that behavior is in turn based on of the power difference between them.

Besides, the reason they don't "stick around" is because its usually 1 vs 3-4 and they use all of their attacks on ganking the lowbie.

That tells me nothing of what differentiates 207s from any other twink level. Everyone who's outnumbered by 3-4 upperrange twinks will try to get away, but what makes 207s so special to meep in the other scenarios where any other twink level wouldn't?

Besides, if you had a fixer, you could kill, meep, fgrid and be back to the site in 1 minute without the possibility of dying.

Again, how is that specific to 207s? Any lvl 100+ fixer can meep and fgrid back to the site. How does it justify that 207 vs 220 is okay?

[erozc]

Would you care if your twink was renderred useless of no fault of your own? Rebalancing is fine, but nerfing to the point of not having any reason to play a toon you invested so much in -- not fine.

I have a 219 twink that will be ruined if I can't attack 174s anymore. No reason to play that anymore.

[bitnykk]

anyway i'm all for nerfing the MRlolsplat naabs lower range, just to piss off chereee.

... & THAT WAS A JOKE, cooldown !

beside that :
"I know this NR 165 Agent that can pwn any 207 NT" >> legend or lie ! please stop trying to state 207-165 is fair until 220-207 isn't, because we all know those gaps are totally uncomparable on every aspect (buff, perk, gear, whatever).

201+ should be a league while their access to TL5/6 need entightment, especially at the level accessing Mongo Rage. so you see, wasn't completely a joke after all.

[Chereee]

because we all know those gaps are totally uncomparable on every aspect (buff, perk, gear, whatever).

165 - 207
skill cap difference: 35 regular levels (TL cap hits at around 161).
ip difference (not considering you get more ip the higher you are, also not considering you spend more ip the more you have invested in a skill): 60 regular levels
sl perks: 11
ai perks: 7
important gear difference: HHAB, ql 300 ai armor (compared to what, ql 225 for 160s?), better symbs, LOX stuff (so I hear)
nanos: 165 unlocks some important ones, don't know enough to comment on anything gained since then until 207

207-220
skill cap difference: 65 regular levels
ip difference (not considering you get more ip the higher you are, also not considering you spend more ip the more you have invested in a skill): 65 regular levels
sl perks: 13
ai perks: 0
important gear difference: hud/utils stuff (alb, professional star), best symbs, 210+ gear (apf stuff)
nanos: DB nanos, all end game nanos and pets (widowmaker, carlos, rhiwen), best token board

Not a clear picture yet, one thing I haven't taken into account yet is the quality of the perks gained for each range. Research...

[bitnykk]

207-220 (...) ai perks: 0 (...) important gear difference: hud/utils stuff (alb, professional star), best symbs, 210+ gear (apf stuff) (...) Not a clear picture yet

yes, no offense, it seem you don't have a clear picture of the 2 gaps ...

to start with, if we consider 161 cap and SL = 5xRK, 207-165 makes a gap of 74 level, while 220-207 make 65.

add to that : most of the HUD/utils (LE, alb e.g.) are 201+. most level 10 perks, LE research included, are restricted to 201+ also. the symbiants difference between Beta (201+) and Alpha (219+) ain't that much that you might believe. to be around truth, i'd state they might add something like 10% AR/Def at the VERY max.
so the only big difference would be dbquest nanos (as apf nanos ain't restricted), and a few stuff like apf belt or 2500 boards. okay with you on pets but that concerns only 3 professions if i'm correct.

to be accurate we'd need average good-geared stats at those levels in different professions, but anyway now compared to what 165 can reach in AR/Def/perk & gear, that 220-207 difference is ridiculous. honestly.

[erozc]

How do you figure that? And what does that change to my claim that it's too wide a power difference? My justification: these twinks don't exist aside from ganks/meeps and 220 support, indicating that the range is too wide for them to be able to reasonably stand their ground to the same extent every other pvp level does (except for maybe tl5+). Your justification: it could be worse? LOL, it's true. 207s can be attacked by players of level over 9000. You've sold me there!

Well, this actually made me realize that I was wrong on the next part. You still didn't understand what I was trying to say, though.

Why is 220 attacking 175 not the big issue? Cause there are no 175 to complain? Dunno about you, but when I see that there are no twinks at a certain level, to me it sounds like it's a bad twink level. 220s should attack down to a reasonable level that allows them to put up a fight, but still be at a disadvantage, just like how 76 vs 60 is. If they attack down to too low a level, that low level range either won't exist or will find a way to gank/meep. Don't you think that should be the focus of solving this problem? How low should 220 attack? Cause once you balance that, the rest will just fall into place.

175 versus 220 is clearly an issue. Hence, if 207 vs. 9000 is going in the wrong direction, how about making it better. Say, if one were to limit the range for 220s down to 190, it would clearly be a step for the better as perfect balance can be hard to achieve.

I'm all for fair level ranges, sure, the above suggestion is not fair from all aspects though for reasons explained next. How realistic it is to expect a fair solution to be found is debatable, since the definition of fair (you used "like 76 to 60", is 150 to 119 still fair?) is hard and reaching consensus on that quite likely impossible.

Nobody likes their toons becoming outdated for any reason, be it toolset changes or mechanics changes. I'm sure there's examples of both from before (hai halved PvP crit, UVC on others/FP, 40% caps, absorb change, FFA range 150->175, etc). Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs though.

[Mazzarin]

apf nanos ain't restricted

No level restriction, but Cyberdeck requirement, which in turn is 215+

[Chereee]

Eroz, there's nothing in your last post I disagree with. One warning though, if there is no attractive reason to twink in a certain range, other ranges will be effected. If my 207 has no one lower to attack, and all I'm pvping is 220s, why wouldn't I go to 220 myself? If 190 vs 220 is too big a range, 190 will be a dead twink level. So imagine 190-219 having no twinks. TL5 will have no one to fear and they will dominate their range, while at every other level range, no one dominates cause there's always someone higher.

yes, no offense, it seem you don't have a clear picture of the 2 gaps ...

to start with, if we consider 161 cap and SL = 5xRK, 207-165 makes a gap of 74 level, while 220-207 make 65.

I'm talking about TL skill caps okay? Not just the face value of levels. For your best skill, you get 5 skill per level if you're uncapped.

Example 1: Opifex Agent Concealment
Keeping abilities constant so to ignore trickle
Maxed Concealment at 161 = 672
Maxed Concealment at 207 = 897
Difference = 225
Equivalent Difference in Regular Levels = 225 skill / 5 skill per regular level = 45* regular levels
I notice I made a mistake when I said 35 levels. Still, that's nowhere close to the 74 regular level you are saying.

Example 2: Opifex Agent Concealment
Keeping abilities constant so to ignore trickle
Maxed Concealment at 207 = 940
Maxed Concealment at 220 = 1265
Difference = 325
Equivalent Difference in Regular Levels = 325 skill / 5 skill per regular level = 65 regular levels

About albtraum, you're right. The most important unlocks for that type of gear comes at 201. About level 10 perks, just because they're level 10 doesn't make them the most powerful perks a toon can have. Consider agents who get most of their perk power at 170 or acrobat that reaches its potential at 140.

Here's a another stat. My 207 twink without MR had about 2332 AR at the time (if I had maxed CoHA instead of CoLI, it would be closer to 2400 AR). He was all out offensive. My 220 agent at the time had like 2900 AR in a full def setup. 500 AR difference. No telling what def difference. Only reason I could gank some 220s was MR. While TL5 could probably gank me if I wouldn't meep.

[bitnykk]

what you're stating is interesting but still, i'm convinced 207-165 gap is way more then 220-207.

as you said, to start with, for thoses with MR, when atrox is of best choice for that kind of PVP.
also, in your comparison, you take a "neutral" skill (concealment) while we'd need AR (all included : gear, all perks, baffs) to have a more precise idea of that hittability gap.
about level 9/10 perks, even if i agree some lines are completable early TL4/5, this is far from majority and that matters a LOT in the damage you can spit during alpha.
and also, i understand your theorical need of comparison BUT trickledown matters much according to me : what 207 would NOT raise abilities for the purpose of fighting TL5s only ?

so : not only based on a "virtual level difference" taking account of skillcap and SL levels, but also comparing gear (wich is closer between 220 and 207 than 207 and 165), AR/Def and prolly DD output : i'm convinced 207-165 isn't fair, as for 220-175. those ranges need entightment, while i think 220-207 is closer from 220-190 or 207-175.

> "TL5 could probably gank me if I wouldn't meep"
man ... you're talking about a TL5 zerg against you solo, do you ? then yes, i hope they would gank you if you don't meep. but if you talk about only 1 level 165 don't count on me to believe that

[Flyingengi]

EHere's a another stat. My 207 twink without MR had about 2332 AR at the time (if I had maxed CoHA instead of CoLI, it would be closer to 2400 AR). He was all out offensive. My 220 agent at the time had like 2900 AR in a full def setup. 500 AR difference. No telling what def difference. Only reason I could gank some 220s was MR. While TL5 could probably gank me if I wouldn't meep.

So, was a the 207 twink an agent? I didn't know they could meep. If it wasn't, you are comparing apples to oranges. Agents can get more AR than fixers. Your 207 twink has more AR than my 220 MP if it makes u feel any better.

[Chereee]

Yes, it was an agent and with the right mimic, agents can meep. And I don't think I wanna go through explaining TL skill caps to bytnikk again. ><

[Flyingengi]

Yes, it was an agent and with the right mimic, agents can meep. And I don't think I wanna go through explaining TL skill caps to bytnikk again. ><

Agents in the right mimic can also get 252 more AR.

[Chereee]

For comparison's sake, agent AR in mimic fix vs agent in mimic doc is the same. Or make them both mimic enforcer or trader, still the difference is the same.

[Flyingengi]

Actually, trader can give you 348 AR pushing your 207 AR to 2680. I'm also pretty sure a 207 enfo could push close to 3k AR in a pure AR setup. My enfo was pushing 2.6k around that lvl in purely defensive setup.

[Reids]

So imagine 190-219 having no twinks. TL5 will have no one to fear and they will dominate their range, while at every other level range, no one dominates cause there's always someone higher.

Why wouldn't there be someone higher? Make TL5s attackable by TL6s (up to like, 195 or something perhaps). Then TL6s would get picked on by TL7s, like the rest of the pvp system. Problem solved.

[Chereee]

Why wouldn't there be someone higher? Make TL5s attackable by TL6s (up to like, 195 or something perhaps). Then TL6s would get picked on by TL7s, like the rest of the pvp system. Problem solved.

Would you roll a TL6 twink if you were open to 220s? TL5 being attackable by TL6 is fine, but TL6 being attackable by 220s is not fine. Because it's not fine, TL6 twinks won't exist, hence, TL5 have no one higher to attack them. If you're saying TL6 should be attacked by like max 207 or something, then the cost of being a 190 twink might not be so high.

[Flyingengi]

Would you roll a TL6 twink if you were open to 220s? TL5 being attackable by TL6 is fine, but TL6 being attackable by 220s is not fine. Because it's not fine, TL6 twinks won't exist, hence, TL5 have no one higher to attack them. If you're saying TL6 should be attacked by like max 207 or something, then the cost of being a 190 twink might not be so high.

Which is what this thread is about if you would stop derailing it.

Equal power distribution.

[Wulf-GTI]

Meybe make so TL7 only PvP wit TL7?

[Reids]

Would you roll a TL6 twink if you were open to 220s? TL5 being attackable by TL6 is fine, but TL6 being attackable by 220s is not fine. Because it's not fine, TL6 twinks won't exist, hence, TL5 have no one higher to attack them. If you're saying TL6 should be attacked by like max 207 or something, then the cost of being a 190 twink might not be so high.

195 being attackable by 220s = wrong
165s being attackable by 207s = right

I see a bit of a contradiction here.

[Chereee]

195 being attackable by 220s = wrong
165s being attackable by 207s = right

I see a bit of a contradiction here.

I never made the claim of 207 vs 165 being fair. To clear things up, I think it's too wide.

What I did point out a few times in this thread is the contradiction in:
Saying 165 vs 207 is broken
Continuing to play a 165 twink