The Problem with PvP Level Balance

[Mazzarin]

Debump, splitting up the pvp ranges up like that makes no sense and eliminates twink level variety. You'd just get that all twinks will be lvl49, 74, 174, etc... Low level pvp ranges are fine, the only concern is lvl200-220. As discussed in several other threads on this subject, the best solution is to count each Shadow Level as 5 normal levels, like so:

Max	Min
200	159
201	163
202	167
203	171
204	175
205	179
206	183
207	187
208	191
209	195
210	199
211	201
212	201
213	202
214	203
215	204
216	205
217	205
218	206
219	207
220	208

[Taranide]

Original pvp level ranges are thrilling enough with one exception: 201-220 should be a league of its own.

[RedWatr]

I actually think this is the best re-scaled effort I've seen:

CLICKUMZ

[Scottik]

I actually think this is the best re-scaled effort I've seen:

CLICKUMZ

Yep, exactly my thoughts. Bump

[Chereee]

I actually think this is the best re-scaled effort I've seen:

CLICKUMZ

Basing ranges ENTIRELY on what the so called equivalent of a SL is to a RL should not be the final answer. It's a good start though.

Just one example of what I mean:

182 145 - 205
187 149 - 207

going from 182 ---> 187
is much less of a gain than
going from 205 ---> 207

Consider TL caps, consider gear, consider what your upper pvp range has as an upper pvp range, consider nano locks, consider huge perk gains from some profs... We do that when choosing a twink level and I can already tell that some jumps do not make any sense and were chosen only because it fit the formula.

Also, it doesn't address the situation of 207 twinks. Answer me this, do you see 207s out in the open without TL7 support? They're either ganking or have 220s supporting them. They can't be out in the open, that's why they resort to ganks n' meep. Isn't being free to be out in the open what TL5 want? Yet, the people they want protection from don't even have that. To make it even worse for them, the suggestions so far put their faith up in the air to see whether there's going to be any twinks in their range to gank.. not fight, gank. Cause when you're open to 220s at 207, you're not going to stick around long if you don't have 220 support of your own.

[erozc]

If there were 240 levels as opposed to 220, current 207s would get ganked by 240s. There are no level 240 players. This means you are already protected from getting wtfganked by a much higher level - they don't exist.

There's always going to be a lower bound where you are prey to the highest levels. Currently this level is 175. As a 175, getting ganked by a level 220 isn't really any fun at all, though it isn't the big issue here. The level 207 "twinks" are. Level 207s are taking advantage of the upper bound on character levels and consequently no risk of getting attacked by a vastly superior character, in addition to being healable to characters out of their target's pvp range (though the latter happens at all levels).

I don't think that level 207 is a really valid twink level from the game's point of view at all due to the upper bound on their attacker level as described above. They're just freaks created by the game mechanics. Such characters will, with the currently used sliding window PvP range system, always exist. It's just that currently the power gap between the intended targets of these 'freaks' and their own ability is huge.

Mechanics often have their weak spots - the current twink killer levels are an example. Should we care whether they are viable in the future?

[bitnykk]

I actually think this is the best re-scaled effort I've seen:

CLICKUMZ

this proposal ain't greatly accurate. eg :
204 175 - 215 doesn't work with 215 203 - 220
same for 207 187 - 218 that makes no sense if 220 207 - 220

but i agree with those surroundings wich are close to a proposal i made myself
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...4&postcount=85

i also disagree on applying purely the same % ranges with a curve of SL = 5 * RK, because it leads to too much restriction imo.

[Darkirbiska1]

this proposal ain't greatly accurate. eg :
204 175 - 215 doesn't work with 215 203 - 220
same for 207 187 - 218 that makes no sense if 220 207 - 220

but i agree with those surroundings wich are close to a proposal i made myself
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...4&postcount=85

i also disagree on applying purely the same % ranges with a curve of SL = 5 * RK, because it leads to too much restriction imo.

Change it how you want, do you think it will stop new 204 tl5 killers?
Another level range means only another profession for tl5 ganker.

[Chereee]

If there were 240 levels as opposed to 220, current 207s would get ganked by 240s.

How do you figure that? And what does that change to my claim that it's too wide a power difference? My justification: these twinks don't exist aside from ganks/meeps and 220 support, indicating that the range is too wide for them to be able to reasonably stand their ground to the same extent every other pvp level does (except for maybe tl5+). Your justification: it could be worse? LOL, it's true. 207s can be attacked by players of level over 9000. You've sold me there!

There's always going to be a lower bound where you are prey to the highest levels. Currently this level is 175. As a 175, getting ganked by a level 220 isn't really any fun at all, though it isn't the big issue here.

Why is 220 attacking 175 not the big issue? Cause there are no 175 to complain? Dunno about you, but when I see that there are no twinks at a certain level, to me it sounds like it's a bad twink level. 220s should attack down to a reasonable level that allows them to put up a fight, but still be at a disadvantage, just like how 76 vs 60 is. If they attack down to too low a level, that low level range either won't exist or will find a way to gank/meep. Don't you think that should be the focus of solving this problem? How low should 220 attack? Cause once you balance that, the rest will just fall into place.

Level 207s are taking advantage of the upper bound on character levels and consequently no risk of getting attacked by a vastly superior character, in addition to being healable to characters out of their target's pvp range (though the latter happens at all levels).

If 207s were a 'good twink level' by the same standards that lvl 10-164 is, then you would see them standing their ground vs 220s. You would see them dominating 165s even more than they do now. They are at no risk of getting attacked by someone vastly superior IF they meep.That rules out like 10 professions already, and it severly limits gameplay. If they don't meep, their life is in the hands of the 220 battle. Whoever wins that battle decides who wins the 207 battle, decides who wins the TL5 battle. What's so different? 207s found one way to play the game, which the 165s tolerate. 207s have their downsides, don't pretend like they don't. Removing their only reason to exist and not replacing it with any other reason is an unwarrated nerf.

Should we care whether they are viable in the future?

Would you care if your twink was renderred useless of no fault of your own? Rebalancing is fine, but nerfing to the point of not having any reason to play a toon you invested so much in -- not fine.

[Flyingengi]

Btw...I just ganked a 172 soldier twink in less than 3 seconds flat on my purely pvm 208 enfo yet again. Without trying.

There is a difference between a 150 vs a 126 and a 207 vs a 170. The 150 isn't going to instasplat the 126.

[Chereee]

Btw...I just ganked a 172 soldier twink in less than 3 seconds flat on my purely pvm 208 enfo yet again. Without trying.

There is a difference between a 150 vs a 126 and a 207 vs a 170. The 150 isn't going to instasplat the 126.

I don't disagree with anything you say here, I'm just pointing out that the 208 enfo will instasplat to a 220, something which people are conveniently ignoring when posting their pvp rebalance scheme.

[Flyingengi]

I don't disagree with anything you say here, I'm just pointing out that the 208 enfo will instasplat to a 220, something which people are conveniently ignoring when posting their pvp rebalance scheme.

Not really, 220 keeper tried to kill me and I got away quite easily.

[Chereee]

Not really, 220 keeper tried to kill me and I got away quite easily.

Is that indicative of the power difference or the profession matchups? Cause I too can say something similar about my 184 froob fixer getting away quite easily from 220s.

[Esqi]

Why not use wow's system, with a little variation..

1-19
20-31
32-43
ETC ETC..

And when you get to 201. all you can fight is 220.

Pvp ranges allow for exploitation of the mechanic, for instance a tl5 force gathers to fight another and gets on with it, then you have the 207 enf/fix/agent/sold/whatever come along and wtfpwn you, well your tl5 force target's the player and unleashes a combined alpha strike, but the 220 doc who is in gas but cant be attacked by the tl5 force quickly heals the 207 gank machine with zero effort.

Then 22's come out to help out and it quickly degenerates into a tl7 fight with the LCA remaining unharmed as the twink army had to log mains to ward off the tl5 ganker and 220 doc poket healer.

So no one wins the LCA, cept the defending side who dont actually have to defend other than logging the twink 207 toon and have a friend come out and heal them... while the CT remains the same.

[Mazzarin]

Why not use wow's system, with a little variation..

1-19
20-31
32-43
ETC ETC..

Because then you'd need to have like 20 twinks to defend all your towers, while you can only fit 8 on your account...

[bitnykk]

imo the 207 twinks should be able to attack 174+ so they ain't rendered useless.
that's the choice people make to come in war with 175ish to gank 150 easily, so they deserve to have some upper gankers too. but there's no point to let them splat 165ish.

on the other hand 220-207 is *WAYYYY* less gapped than 207-165 on every aspects (symbiants, buffs, perks, items, etc ...) : don't deny, that's senseless to, we all know it ! & that fails to be asking for no nerf (= keep 165 access) and get protection lub (= from 220) at the same time for 207 lolzors.

we all know the best 165 got no freaking chance VS any 200+ (even a rotten PLer) whereas a correct 207 can deal pretty much against an average 215+. everybody here agrees that 201+ power increase ain't the same linear scale than under 200 included.

so the goal is to balance high PVP ranges, so plz keep it fair in the debates as we all try to.

[Techwizard]

IMHO, pvp is about twinking. Your pvp title says how good you are in pvp. If you have 2k solo kills then measure your skills against guys with 2k solo kills. You may be at the same level.

pvp ranges should be defined by TL, and pvp title (solo, team, duel). I guess you can find the right combination how to define the ranges.

With a simple logic, what result would you expect for duel of two TL7 where one has pvp title 1 and other 5. Isn't that obvious?

[Chereee]

...whereas a correct 207 can deal pretty much against an average 215+.

Explain to me why 207s resort to ganks and meeps then? Why wouldn't they stick around to fight off 220s like most other pvp range facing someone at their upper range? If they can deal with the average 220, why don't they?

[Tanana]

Explain to me why 207s resort to ganks and meeps then? Why wouldn't they stick around to fight off 220s like most other pvp range facing someone at their upper range? If they can deal with the average 220, why don't they?

Because these guys only like one sided fights!

[Flyingengi]

Explain to me why 207s resort to ganks and meeps then? Why wouldn't they stick around to fight off 220s like most other pvp range facing someone at their upper range? If they can deal with the average 220, why don't they?

I know of a 210 soldier that can kill 75% of 220 twinks.

Besides, the reason they don't "stick around" is because its usually 1 vs 3-4 and they use all of their attacks on ganking the lowbie. Besides, if you had a fixer, you could kill, meep, fgrid and be back to the site in 1 minute without the possibility of dying.