Friday with Means - November 13th, 2009 - Friday teh 13th 110100101!!!

[erozc]

Please change all perk actions of Nanomage Primary Genome to Nanomage Secondary Genome and vice-versa.

Nanomages are less likely to train their Primary Genome (+intel/+psy) but yet would benefit more from the attacks/debuffs/heals present on this line.

This is unless you seriously nerf nano-regeneration going forward. And by serioulsy, I mean seriously.

Hint: Chaotic assumption + guesstimate AR.

[Kintaii]

Awesome! But I think you forgot about the NSD effect for NT's Program Overload.

You can just find this text and do your little red color/strikethrough thing to it


TIA

Sorry - Keep forgetting that we need to do that in the document. >< It was confirmed before this, but yes - The chance of debuff happening on Program Overload has been removed.

[Ayria]

We tend to look at Mongo Rage as an emergency button - Something that should be pressed when everything else has failed. However, as it stands, Mongo Rage has the tendency to be an "I splat stuff" button - Once Mongo Rage is over, most things standing around the Atrox are pretty much dead. We've removed the debuff based on that logic - There's little point in punishing someone for pushing an emergency button if there's no one else around to aid in that punishment.

Do you know how bad that sounds?

"Lolol, Atroxs used this perk and it results in most everything being dead so we removed its downsides because there's no reason to punish them for using their emergency button without anyone around to help punish them (BECAUSE THEY KILLED THEM ALL)."

Emergency? What was the emergency? That they had the sudden need to slaughter everyone around them so that they could safely AFK and get their lunch from the microwave?

If it's supposed to be an emergency "boost of survival (via killing)" then make it only be usable when they actually need it not just as a passing fancy. As it stands now they could have a pocket doc keeping them at full health and they can still pop MR and slaughter everyone. To me, that's not an emergency button that's an "I win" button.

And from my understanding balance is about not having "I win" buttons. Or at least giving one to everyone, not just one out of four breeds.

[Hacre]

Hehe ye.
The name "easy shot" went from being accurate to being sarcastic

I see you guys are still getting the shaft here.

Alright - So this is the big one. Mongo Rage. We all knew this would be the focus of the Breed Perk document (even though there are a lot of other changes in there that we'd really like feedback on in general), and I figure it bears a bit of explanation in terms of our thought processes.

The first thing a lot of people have latched on to so far is the fact that the debuff portion has been removed. We tend to look at Mongo Rage as an emergency button - Something that should be pressed when everything else has failed. However, as it stands, Mongo Rage has the tendency to be an "I splat stuff" button - Once Mongo Rage is over, most things standing around the Atrox are pretty much dead. We've removed the debuff based on that logic - There's little point in punishing someone for pushing an emergency button if there's no one else around to aid in that punishment. Note that a lot of our changes throughout the perk documentation have included removals of such debuffs, in an effort to try and remove 'down time' and harsh side effects from characters - Drawbacks are fine and all, but when dealing with a main part of a character's toolset it really sucks to have to try and keep track of that sort of information; "Since I used this perk, can I cast my nanos after it?" just isn't that entertaining in the long run.

Instead of debuffing the character after the effect of Mongo Rage has died, we've attempted doing the following - Giving a visual indicator to the player facing the Atrox that MR is incoming. Previously, the smart PvPer would queue up MR and time the rest of their perks to go off as soon as MR was active. With the way perks work, this gave zero warning to the opposing player that Mongo Rage was incoming, and they were caught completely by surprise when they went splat. Now, with Mongo Rage chaining from Mongo Fury, the player has a window of opportunity to realize that MR is coming and do something about it.

When Mongo Fury is activated, there will be a visual indicator (the familiar "wobbly body" effect) on the Atrox - When the opposing player sees this effect, they know that Mongo Rage will be coming very soon (MR has a three second activation time, but may be activated at any point while "Affected by Mongo Fury" is running on the Atrox). This gives the opposing player time to activate their own emergency defenses, or attempt to get the hell outta dodge. In this case, the change to Mongo Rage was all about telegraphing the incoming boost in AR to the opposing player.

That said, we do realize that a more advanced PvPer might choose to activate MF and MR out of sight, and then charge in like a berserker - This is ok, as it implies some form of tactics on the player's part and also decreases the amount of time they have under the influence of Mongo Rage. This sort of tactical thinking is something we don't want to decrease in AO in the slightest, and we hope that some of the changes we're making to perks influence this in a positive way.

All of that said, we've stated before that nothing here is final and things will be altered going into the future. If, after feedback and testing, we decide that Mongo Rage needs further tweaks we will look into them, potentially including adding the debuff portion of the perk action back. Right now, though, we're hoping that our current implementation adds in a noticable difference in the way that characters are able to react to and defend themselves from the perk while not directly nerfing the abilities of the Atrox.

Again - We're posting these because we want people to offer their feedback and opinions. So by all means discuss, debate and let us know what you think. But hopefully this will help you guys better understand where our mindset is with the change-over. =)

It's not ok when you have:

Opi/NM/Soli perks about here on the scale of power, then moving up the scale............................................. ....................................Atrox is about here, just from Mongo Rage. Because it's a BREED perk. Not a profession perk. BREED.

Also what Ayria said. Does that mean I can have the nanodrain from NBS removed (as well as the lockout changed to 3 minutes) as well as instant recharge on CB, because you know, once I've used it, my target(s) are dead so, you know, why penalise me for using it? That's totally, utterly, flawed logic. I really question just how many people behind all this actually PvP regularly and it's the first time I've ever felt a real need to question that, apart from when the abomination of GTH appeared.

Nanos, Items, Research - These things will also be changed. There are more things incoming than most people realize. =) Heck, you should see what Means had me working on today for you guys...

Nanos/Items/Research are all things we've seen zero, zip, nada documentation on, what we -have- seen is continued ignorance of all PERK BASED feedback from Keepers who currently play as well as Keepers who still have a 220/70/30 Keeper sitting on their account, stripped and inactive because we didn't all have the foresight to roll the Funcom Love Breed Atrox to fix all our perking issues.

Plus, it doesn't matter -what- you do to Keeper nanos/items/research so long as the problems innate to the Keeper perk layout remain, which given all the documentation we've seen around Keeper perks, DESPITE all the feedback, they still remain which means we've been completely ignored.

We've also seen FC's idea on "good nanos" for Keepers, or "mediocre to crap improvements for a HOLYWTF increase in casting requirements" so you will forgive us if this luke warm statement of "hey guys good stuff coming, just you wait!" doesn't make us pipe down and shut up.

Fix Keeper perks, or get the other non perk toolset changes made available pronto instead of changing the odd line/stat here and there across a few PDFs (a lot of which is still utterly vague btw, like how things scale depending on level, despite this complaint being leveled many times in the balance forum) so that we can then turn around and say yeah great but can you fix our perk issues now please?

I'm normally pretty defensive of most of the things Funcom do looking at the bigger picture, but right now this latest batch of docs just brings right back the pre Means adage of: "Funcom, putting the FU in FUn".

Also unless you're intending to slow PvP right down to a complete snails pace, which given the complete consequence free use of MR, you're not gonna, all the fancy new "if this or that or the other is running, UBERDAMAGE" is going to fall flat and rarely be used, just like it was rarely ever used before.

Don't ask for feedback if you're going to outright ignore it, or go straight on the defensive when it's given. Another good example is Quark Containment Field, not only have you nerfed an already largely useless outside of PvM perk root down to 10s duration, meaning even a lesser QL FM than 125 will instantly remove it, you -still- haven't listened to it needing to cast an additional affected by... on the target so that the next damage perk in the line can be used. Very few PvP people perk that line out, because by the time you get around to launching the damage perk, either the root has been removed with an easy click or the root never landed in the first place due to innate root resist.

and *sigh*.

[IHaveHugeNick]

I love these boards sometimes - as always everyone is focusing on one change and meanwhile NTs getting mini-NBS every 2 minutes will quitely slip through unnoticed by everyone, only to launch new wave of THEY NUKE ME FOR OVER 9000000!! threads 2 months later.

What they did to MR doesnt' actually have any impact on balance at all.

[Glarawyn]

Giving a visual indicator to the player facing the Atrox that MR is incoming. Previously

In addition to the wobbly effect, could we have a "Mongo Fury" text floating above the players head? The Mongo line of taunt nanos and Mongo Rage have that floating text. Consistency is good.

It completely negates Evades. MA/Shade/Fixer/Crat/Advy/Engies/MPs are ALL at MR's mercy the moment it is popped. That is all Evade and Pet proffesions' toolsets become completely worthless for 15seconds every 3mins.

Bio Shielding professions can throw up a Bio Cocoon, Bio Rejuvenation, Bio Regrowth counter. The new chaining and visual effects should make this easier to do.

A Nanomage can hit the opponent with Notum Domination. -1000 to inits is going to lessen the number of attacks the Atrox gets off under Mongo Range.

Optifex Blinded by Delights + Brimstone could open up the Atrox to more attacks by reducing defenses.

Solitus...meh. I'd fall back to my profession and group perks before using Solitus Genome perks to survive Mongo Rage.

I don't even mind MR itself, but the 3min cooldown is retarded. Make it 30mins or something.

Indeed. If Mongo Rage meant to be an emergency button, why is the recharge 3 minutes? That's 20 emergencies per hour. At 3 min recharge it's not an emergency action that you keep in reserve. Dimach is a much better example of an emergency button.

[Louderer789]

A Nanomage can hit the opponent with Notum Domination. -1000 to inits is going to lessen the number of attacks the Atrox gets off under Mongo Range. .

You don't use MR to land normal hits Glara!

[Wrangeline]

I'm a littlebit curious about traders after these changes.

Right now, half of the professions will evade all our DD perks except easy shot, which does like.. 1500 pvp damage.

This means that against half the professions in AO, we only have AS and easy shot as any dependable source of damage.

After all these changes, Easy shot checks 100% duck exp (it was 5%), which means it will also not land, just like the rest of our perks. AS will be changed to 3s "cast time" for the initial attack and then a nerfed version of AS after that, if I understood it right.

So all in all, we can't really do any useful damage to half the professions after these changes.

Anyone with a defensive rating above 3k, which is easy to get, will apparently take veeeery little damage from a trader

My trader has 2850 AR with both divest and plunder running. Sounds like we're only going to be able to do any dependable damage against docs and soldiers.

[Hacre]

I love these boards sometimes - as always everyone is focusing on one change and meanwhile NTs getting mini-NBS every 2 minutes will quitely slip through unnoticed by everyone, only to launch new wave of THEY NUKE ME FOR OVER 9000000!! threads 2 months later.

What they did to MR doesnt' actually have any impact on balance at all.

Mini NBS every 2 minutes? You're referring to Program Overload which is not changing aside from the 1% chance to NSD us, yes? A net 10% nano damage bonus is a "mini NBS" in your eyes when NBS is a 100% net increase in damage in PvP?

A Nanomage can hit the opponent with Notum Domination. -1000 to inits is going to lessen the number of attacks the Atrox gets off under Mongo Range.

:facepalm: weren't you a professional?

Also, why are Nanomages getting UBT-in-a-perk?

[IHaveHugeNick]

Mini NBS every 2 minutes? You're referring to Program Overload which is not changing aside from the 1% chance to NSD us, yes? A net 10% nano damage bonus is a "mini NBS" in your eyes when NBS is a 100% net increase in damage in PvP?

No, read through perk changes again and you'll see.

[Hacre]

No, read through perk changes again and you'll see.

I think you'll find it's MPs getting that, and WHAT THE CHRIST?

Oh and it's a 60s recharge.

[IHaveHugeNick]

I think you'll find it's MPs getting that, and WHAT THE CHRIST?

Oh and it's a 60s recharge.

Nope. Lurk moar!

[Technogen]

I agree with Nick....

Also...

Everyone, please do some memory exercises, the whole reason the documentation was delayed at start was because they were making large changes, and now you are all "OMFG OTHER CHANGES!?" It makes you all look very very dumb and doesn't show much hope for FC getting accurate balance input.

[Herkulease]

Tbh I don't understand all the whines about MR. (I even unperked it already)

I see 1 person use Mongo Rage for every 30 people I see use Dance of Fools.

Mongo Rage has (had) draw backs, Dance of Fools does not.

Mongo Rage is very short duration, really obvious to see. Dance of Fools is 4x the duaration and harder to pin-point, impossible to be 100% sure.

Mongo rage = 10 perks, Dance of Fools = 4 perks. The passive benefits from those perks, are much greater for Acrobat then for Atrox Primary.

Mongo Rage allows for one alpha to land, Dance of Fools allows for 10 alphas to /fail.

Mongo Rage requires you to stay near your target to benefit from it, Dance of Fools does not.

Every time you die to someone with Mongo Rage...How many people do you think killed you, or got away from you because of Dance of Fools...?



Tbh, I would like to see them both removed from the game. But you can't nerf one without nerfing the other. You evaders are gonna dig your own grave... I won't mind. 8p

[PhoenixOfAges]

This is very disturbing. So you guys give us documentation on half the picture (the perks) and expect feedback while not disclosing the other half of the context? How can you expect feedback from people who do not see the big picture?

We evidently asked for it. So blame the community for begging for scraps more than FC for throwing them down.

Oct. 16th

Last week we decided to not release the perk documentation based on the idea that we felt it would only create more questions and provide few answers in terms of the "big picture". The general feeling from the community was that you would all rather see "some" information until ALL the information was available.

They have also said more than once I believe that the balancing will effect more than just perks but nanos, items and such as well. Why do I seem to be the only one that remembers that and keeps telling people about it?

Also what we have seen thus far may not even amount to half of the total changes. We have only seen some of the perk changes I believe and those could be changed further as they keep saying. We've still not seen any nano changes, research changes and item changes plus maybe others so there could be far more changes in coming than have been made available at this point.

[Calamite]

I wonder if he's referring to the 50% nanodamage buff from primary genome or 25% damage-to-nano from secondary?

Imo +50% damage is nothing compared to +1500 aao which allows profs with high DD perks land like 500% of the Damage they'd do if they couldn't perk the target?

[Berserkmc]

When Mongo Fury is activated, there will be a visual indicator (the familiar "wobbly body" effect) on the Atrox - When the opposing player sees this effect, they know that Mongo Rage will be coming very soon (MR has a three second activation time, but may be activated at any point while "Affected by Mongo Fury" is running on the Atrox). This gives the opposing player time to activate their own emergency defenses, or attempt to get the hell outta dodge. In this case, the change to Mongo Rage was all about telegraphing the incoming boost in AR to the opposing player.

1. There is no emergency defense similar to +1500 AAO from breed perks. Even Solitus one adding just +125.
2. They already have "Mongo Rage" text on atrox head, and this wont stop them use MR and kill much easier even under debuff. So it become much easier for now. If i remember right, you guys, dont want balance PvP in 1 in 1 situation. But all that visual signalisation work only in 1 vs 1 PvP. No chance to see any of this visuals in mass-PvP, when all peoples in morphs, running around and such.

[Hacre]

I wonder if he's referring to the 50% nanodamage buff from primary genome or 25% damage-to-nano from secondary?

Imo +50% damage is nothing compared to +1500 aao which allows profs with high DD perks land like 500% of the Damage they'd do if they couldn't perk the target?

Yeah I just saw that, but that's not an NT perk. Not all NTs have access to it, unlike profession or group perks. It's as silly as saying Mongo Rage is a Keeper perk.

In fact it's serving to push NM NTs even further from the Solitus/Opifex pack. As it stands now the Soli genome perks and slightly better HP sort of make up for not having NM cocoon/better DtN/better nano cost cap. % nanodamage stuff should be prof or group specific imo, especially as +25% (pvp) is better than all the self temporary perk nanodamage % buffs an NT has access to -combined-.

Having things on a Genome line that are -better- than anything a profession line can do is highly stupid. Things like +25% nano damage (PvP), +1500 aao...just, what? 3 professions benefit from +nanodamage, it should be on a group, not a breed and +25% in one perk for PvP damage is serious overkill, considering it will stack with Program Overload and Knowledge Enhancer for 10%+25%+7.5%=42.5% nanodamage bonus, on top of the +7.5% nano vulnerability perk as well.

WTF? I seriously hope this is some kind of a dark, pervert joke. WTF? MR being improved. What the ****ing **** **** are the Dev's smoking these days... and can I please have some of it?

And how the **** do I run away from a enfo in rage popping MR when they have like twice my runspeed? WTF?

WTF?

Twice your runspeed, snare on fear...

[Saetos]

Not to mention it's +25% in PvP, whereas +aao isn't halved in PvP.

Percentage based damage boosts aren't halved in PVP. The amount of total damage is of course halved, but it doesn't mean it's 25%.

If you have a nuke that does 100 PVM damage and you have a 50% modifier, you'll do 150 points of damage.

In PVP you'll do 50 PVP damage, then with 50% you'll do 75 total. 75 being half of 150, this works out

[Technogen]

1. There is no emergency defense similar to +1500 AAO from breed perks. Even Solitus one adding just +125.

Nanomage Primary: Notum Domination Run Speed: -1000, All init types: -1000 15 seconds pvp

Opifex Secondary: Adapt 20 seconds (Absorbs one normal/special hit every four seconds)

Solitus Alpha: Sprained Ankle Root: 10 seconds pvp


It looks like they put in Emergency defenses similar to MR, if the target cant hit you MR is a waste.