The New Icons, Sci-fi or Fantasy?

[Marketplace]

If someone 3 years ago would have told me that the new engine will come out after TSW and that TSW will come 9 months AFTER Duke Nukem Forever.... I would have slapped him silly...

Just saying..

Please don't misunderstand, I'm saying I hope it will be out before TSW, and it most likely will be out way way before the release of TSW.

I am not sure what the procedure is with the new engine and resources... they are putting it on the public test server for a while, or would it be going straight to the live server after internal testing?

I personally couldn't care less about when the new graphics engine will be released myself, I just want players and friends to come back to the game and resubscribe, I really miss some people that are now in other MMOs or games.

[Lusos101]

You is silly. Moar shainnees may tempt more people to try the game. But as long as the gameplay is fubared as much as it is now, it will only increase the number of people quitting the game before they reach midgame.

[Lusos101]

And on the point of icons. More and clearer icons is always better. The style is different and we may or not like them but it is a win anyways, after all if we dont play the game for the graphics what do we care for the icons?

[Marketplace]

And on the point of icons. More and clearer icons is always better. The style is different and we may or not like them but it is a win anyways, after all if we dont play the game for the graphics what do we care for the icons?

Mr Taste Like Chicken. Just because I couldn't care less about when the release of the graphic engine occurs does not mean that I don't want to see it.

You is silly. Moar shainnees may tempt more people to try the game. But as long as the gameplay is fubared as much as it is now, it will only increase the number of people quitting the game before they reach midgame.

I think you have an extremely good point. Let me rephrase it towards "old players coming back". Showing "shinies" here and there, does that have an advert affect to veterans (genuine question)? Say for instance a veteran goes to the AO Webpages, he hasn't played the game in ages and sees the shinies and says "hellz yez, thatz lookz awesomez" and then proceeds to subscribe for a month to check out good old AO, and gets bored within the month? Positive reinforcement?

-EDIT: Ops, sorry Lusos101 I just read what I wrote above, and I see how it can be misinterpreted. My apologize.

[Legion84]

I'd like to say good job with the icons, something new and different is welcome, i agree with kintai, hope i got that right.. that the reason we are used to the ones we have is cause we have played for several years, but think of it as a new playing coming to AO, there isnt enough distinction with the nano icons/perks to see what is what without Shft Click.

Only problem is getting used to the new ones, but i can't say without trying them, and to be honest i'm sure after a few hours and buffs later we will all be loving them, cause they look so colourful and great i can't wait to see them in my nano program window and hotbars!! yay.

[Marketplace]

I'd like to say good job with the icons, something new and different is welcome, i agree with kintai, hope i got that right.. that the reason we are used to the ones we have is cause we have played for several years, but think of it as a new playing coming to AO, there isnt enough distinction with the nano icons/perks to see what is what without Shft Click.

Only problem is getting used to the new ones, but i can't say without trying them, and to be honest i'm sure after a few hours and buffs later we will all be loving them, cause they look so colourful and great i can't wait to see them in my nano program window and hotbars!! yay.

Don't disagree with you Legion84, the classical saying "Form follows function" I guess applies. In it's entire the question initially asked is kind of silly, I just thought they looked a bit to colorful. But if they serve their function...

[Lheann]

I should also say that trying to make things visually distinct AND managing to cram 'em into a 48x48 texture space also limits your options significantly.

And here is one of those times that while working on the game GUI that maybe seeing how 64x64 would have helped visually and how much effort it would have taken to adjust everything would have been a nice effort.

I mean in this day in age if you are not playing in 1280x1024(4:3) or 1366x768 (16:9) or better screen resolutions it is time to use a better monitor. And 64x64 icons would look much better with ~40% more pixels to work with over 48x48.

As many have said. It is the little things that really make a difference and Icon we look at every day every minute we play would be a big impact.

Nuff said.

[Mastablasta]

Well since they have your hardware data, and that was likely what flipped the decision on actually keeping the old engine around, for all kinds of noobs to download by mistake, they know what screenres you're running at. I'm willing to bet that something like 50% of AO players play at like 1024x768 or the only slightly better than default from 15 years ago 1280x800 and 1366x768 because that's what their laptops or old stationary can do.

Sitting around looking at google analytics data every day at work, not 100% accurate, I know, but it serves a decent enough purpose, I see that on average ~37% of people sit at 1280x800, 1024x768 and 1366x768 (17%, 8% and 12% respectively) and that's not a lot of screen realestate. Pull in 1440x900 and 1600x900 (wide, but no vertical height) and you are at 50% of all visitors to a bunch of consumer webpages (totaling around 75k unique visitors a month). Other 20% use various combinations of these resolutions, and some other esoteric ones, but most of them are below 900px tall and less than 1300px wide. Only ~27% of users are at 1280x1024 (~9%) to 1680x1050 and up.

With the amount of interface people are already spending screen realestate on, having icons suddenly take up 40% extra would certainly be a significant impact to all those visitors. I personally wouldn't notice it, would be fine.

[Kintaii]

There's also coding for and around our GUI being a very different beast than working with other systems in AO. Changing the default size of the icons would require (A) recreating every icon in-game to work with the new system, (B) exporting every old item/nano/perk/etc. etc. to pick up the new changes (aaaaahahahahahahahah *no*), and (C) recoding the GUI display system for the game. Out of all three of those, (C) is the one that's the biggest bottleneck (though (B) comes damn close ><), and is the main reason why we'll be sticking with 48x48 for the time being.

[Rktim]

There's also coding for and around our GUI being a very different beast than working with other systems in AO. Changing the default size of the icons would require (A) recreating every icon in-game to work with the new system, (B) exporting every old item/nano/perk/etc. etc. to pick up the new changes (aaaaahahahahahahahah *no*), and (C) recoding the GUI display system for the game. Out of all three of those, (C) is the one that's the biggest bottleneck (though (B) comes damn close ><), and is the main reason why we'll be sticking with 48x48 for the time being.

A) Well you are already doing that
B) Not if you make the new GUI stretch out old icons like a bad windows wallpaper until you get around to update them
C) Ok fine you got me there (all tough that will probably be needed in the next 5 years or the ugly GUI will nullify the effect of shiny graphics...)

[Traderjill]

The icon updates come when batches of them are ready. A good number of them already exist in-game, and have been for some time now.

And this is my issue with it. I'm tired of all of these minor icon adjustments. Can we just get all of the remaining updates at once.. get used to the change and then call it a day? The onesy twosy.. maybe because I've been looking at the old stuff for so long is frankly annoying.

Change is fine and I know in a MMO you will always have changes.. but these types of changes should just be done in one big blast and I would have thought that would have come with the new graphics engine.

[MyGift]

Any new person staring at, say, the Trader nano icons without the benefit of the name/description sitting right next to 'em, would most likely be confused as it gets.

New icons ( beside heals ) dosnt say a thing so ppl will still get confused...only imporvement is diversity so u can say which nuke is higher ql by scaling on symbol on icon.

[Lheann]

There's also coding for and around our GUI being a very different beast than working with other systems in AO. Changing the default size of the icons would require (A) recreating every icon in-game to work with the new system, (B) exporting every old item/nano/perk/etc. etc. to pick up the new changes (aaaaahahahahahahahah *no*), and (C) recoding the GUI display system for the game. Out of all three of those, (C) is the one that's the biggest bottleneck (though (B) comes damn close ><), and is the main reason why we'll be sticking with 48x48 for the time being.

A) A said before, already doing that effort. I would hope that the new source files are some form vector image. That would prevent ever redoing because of size desired by itself. If the sources are not vector type images then I have to ask WTF?

B) Exporting this and that. In what is now a 14 year project no one has stopped to make the import/export tools a bit more friendly and batch capable yet? Friendly tools are a must on any project.

C) We hear this a lot how the old game code is hacked together. I am finding it more and more disturbing. As a lead software engineer on government programs we routinely get handed millions of lines of fortran and ada code and have to work in it because it is an upgrade. Oh complain we might but in the end at least my team looks for the strength of the project and build on them to accomplish the upgrade. There are several neat programming tricks I have learned from these old code projects (such as a fast math library in pure assemble) that really show top notch engineering vice today's "development" heavy style. I seriously doubt the people 14 years ago where stupid or not capable. I seriously think it is a lack of understanding of the older engineering methods that hold back changes in the legacy code of AO. But GUI interface is critical to all games and with SVG and other vector art formats now becoming common maybe it would be time to make a significant update to these pieces.

Means says all this is to keep AO running another 10 years. Well heads up if you dont change it now some of this stuff will be 24 years old if Means gets his 10 more years. Think the code will be less scary then?

Overall it is great the team is making progress. But there are some things that really would make a difference. Consider Apple and MS are both saying "retina" style displays will be here in 12 to 24 months means that somewhere in the next 3 years 48x48 is really going to look crappy on those displays.

[Kintaii]

A) A said before, already doing that effort. I would hope that the new source files are some form vector image. That would prevent ever redoing because of size desired by itself. If the sources are not vector type images then I have to ask WTF?

We don't support SVG files in our engine, and displaying scalable vector art is a completely different bag from displaying other file formats. Something like this would require a fairly hefty coding effort (not to mention hiring new artists with specialization in using Illustrator [or some other vector program] just for icon work - not really that cost-effective, when we have other things that would be better served by hiring artists who are focused in other areas).

At the same time, the style and feel of vector graphics is completely different from what you're able to achieve using a static image. Vector graphics for the nano icons might work (and definitely for perks), but regular item icons would look really out of place unless we redid every single one in the same style.

Also, the work that Docaholic is doing with is *not* completely comprehensive - We're are replacing the *nano* icons across the board, but otherwise are mostly only replacing duplicate *item* icons where applicable.

B) Exporting this and that. In what is now a 14 year project no one has stopped to make the import/export tools a bit more friendly and batch capable yet? Friendly tools are a must on any project.

We can do batch processing just fine. But editing and exporting, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of items is another ballgame. And before someone tries with the "you're already doing it!!1!" bit again, we are not exporting every single thing for the rebalancing.

I seriously doubt the people 14 years ago where stupid or not capable. I seriously think it is a lack of understanding of the older engineering methods that hold back changes in the legacy code of AO. But GUI interface is critical to all games and with SVG and other vector art formats now becoming common maybe it would be time to make a significant update to these pieces.

Means says all this is to keep AO running another 10 years. Well heads up if you dont change it now some of this stuff will be 24 years old if Means gets his 10 more years. Think the code will be less scary then?

Overall it is great the team is making progress. But there are some things that really would make a difference. Consider Apple and MS are both saying "retina" style displays will be here in 12 to 24 months means that somewhere in the next 3 years 48x48 is really going to look crappy on those displays.

Again: Small team size + Legacy code + a multitude of much higher-priority issues = some things having to wait. Would it be great to have a new GUI display system with support for vector graphics and brand new icons and the whole nine yards? Definitely. It would also mean taking staff off of projects like the rebalancing coding, the engine work coding, the engine asset creation, and the whole nine yards. We'd also have to hire on additional people, as stated earlier, which if we were to do so would really be better served on one of the initiatives we already have rolling.

Technical limitations can *always* be overcome - It comes down a matter of time, manpower, and priority. *Could* we grab new hires and put them and our current code/art team on focusing solely on GUI for the next year or so? Sure, definitely. But at the same time, when we have an opportunity to upgrade our *existing* system to where it isn't as bad as it currently is, without it being cost/time/resource-heavy*and* without it taking away from the other projects the team has on its plate. Wouldn't you say that it was worth it?

I also wanna clear up, before anyone takes me the wrong way - I have not, nor will I call the older AO teams "stupid" or "not capable". That doesn't mean that I think they always made the smartest of decisions, but I also don't lay "blame" on them. In 1997, how many MMORPGs were on the market? How many games did what AO set out (and in most ways accomplished) to do? Anarchy Online was built in the pioneer days of making online titles - If they "didn't know what they were doing" its because they *had* no real examples to follow. They were making the best decisions they could based off of the scant few other games that were around and otherwise filling in the blanks themselves. Does this mean they were always the *right* decisions? No. But no one is immune from making bad decisions, particularly when faced with a virtual vacuum.

Again - With an opportunity to, for virtually "free" in terms of resources used, help take our icons from being a gigantic mess to something more visually distinctive and appealing, I think we'd be crazy *not* to. Would it be great if we *could* switch over to a system that utilizes scalable vectors for everything? Definitely. But the time *is* better spent in other areas, particularly right now. Instead, we have a dedicated and talented individual who is volunteering to help us in a way that will be a massive improvement for our game, and hell if I'm not gonna take 'em up on it. =)

Also, if a retina-style display can't show something that's 48x48 pixels, then pretty much every single thing made for a computer in the last 30 years is screwed. ;P

[Mastablasta]

What is a "retina-style" display anyway, a LED backlit IPS panel? I personally have a conventional catode lit IPS panel using high quality monitor (Dell U2711) and everything looks better on it than it did my old catode lit TFT monitor (Samsung 2443BW), or these LED TFT monitors I use at work (AOC e2243Fw). A high quality display by default makes everything look better, even 10 year old AO stuff. The color vibrancy, the crispness and added depth just improves anything you're viewing on it.

[Kintaii]

What is a "retina-style" display anyway

i actually have no idea and should probably look that up

Edit: Apparently it's Apple marketing's term for the display used on the iPhone 4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Display

[Mastablasta]

Well, I knew that it was somet mumbo jumbo marketing from Apple, just wondering if it had become something that actually meant something But if one is to gain anything from it, I would say it means extremely high density displays. My monitor only has a 109ppi (15% higher ppi than an average 24" 1920x1200 monitor) compared to the 326ppi of the iphone, but then, it's not intended to be viewed from 30cms as the iphone is. And, not to mention, the hardware drain running things at a resolution that would be required to have 300ppi on a 22-24" monitor O.o We'd be at something like 5760x3600, on a 24".

[Lheann]

Retina style (Apples term) displays are consider "High DPI" displays in the range of 250+ dpi. Apple has been preparing and discussing them for about a year and at the just over Microsoft Build Conference 2011 where Windows 8 was previewed Microsoft stated that it would support these High dpi style display that should be arriving in the next 12 to 24 months from display vendors. The expectation is that all displays will be High DPI in the next 36+ months.

So the same week Microsoft made their annouce, Intel briefed at IDF 2011 that the next generation CPU "Ivy Bridge" on board GPU will support 4096x4096 display resolution so that it can be used effectively with future High dpi displays.

The advantage of such high dpi displays is that is makes AA and AF much prettier as the pixel density is so high and that they are so small that jaggies are no longer visible even with low or no AA/AF. The down side to this however is that very low resolution images stand out as being low resolution. that is why there is a need for high resolution assets in software to support the displays.

All that said, the hardware is advancing where graphics will be able to be displayed in outstanding quality in a few years. But software will have to take advantage of these changes. It it is a shame that the icon work for AO is not being done in a scaling vector format even if the in game images stayed 48x48 fixed size format for now. Just means in 8 to 10 years they get to do it all over again.

But there you have what I meant by Retina display. Take it all with a grain salt of flame it all you want. Either way static size base art will come back to haunt the team if AO stays around 10 more years.

[lainbr]

FC should just train all of their artirts (and docaholic) in Ilustrator or whatever vector image programs. Why hire new when you can make the old better? :3 /troll

[Mastablasta]

Retina style (Apples term) displays are consider "High DPI" displays in the range of 250+ dpi. Apple has been preparing and discussing them for about a year and at the just over Microsoft Build Conference 2011 where Windows 8 was previewed Microsoft stated that it would support these High dpi style display that should be arriving in the next 12 to 24 months from display vendors. The expectation is that all displays will be High DPI in the next 36+ months.

So the same week Microsoft made their annouce, Intel briefed at IDF 2011 that the next generation CPU "Ivy Bridge" on board GPU will support 4096x4096 display resolution so that it can be used effectively with future High dpi displays.

The advantage of such high dpi displays is that is makes AA and AF much prettier as the pixel density is so high and that they are so small that jaggies are no longer visible even with low or no AA/AF. The down side to this however is that very low resolution images stand out as being low resolution. that is why there is a need for high resolution assets in software to support the displays.

All that said, the hardware is advancing where graphics will be able to be displayed in outstanding quality in a few years. But software will have to take advantage of these changes. It it is a shame that the icon work for AO is not being done in a scaling vector format even if the in game images stayed 48x48 fixed size format for now. Just means in 8 to 10 years they get to do it all over again.

But there you have what I meant by Retina display. Take it all with a grain salt of flame it all you want. Either way static size base art will come back to haunt the team if AO stays around 10 more years.

The expectation is that all displays in the world will be swapped out in a 3 year period? That's bizarre and completely unrealistic

But hey, if you're running at that high PPI you can run at a lower resolution easily and you won't notice any scaling, like today with the higher PPI. Didn't consider that in my previous post. So, nothing will need to change in AO. Especially since noone will be able to run games at such resolutions, if they even support it