Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[Obtena]

^^ You think that's unreasonable to encourage people to team with a profession that is meant to be played as a primarily team support role? That's interesting. I mean, what is your motivation for playing a trader in the first place? i would expect that for most of the newer traders, it's simply for massive PVP e-peen but you have been around a while. I'm willing to think your perspective on this is reasonable.

[Syyceria]

^^ You think that's unreasonable to encourage people to team with a profession that is meant to be played as a primarily team support role? That's interesting. I mean, what is your motivation for playing a trader?

When I started nothing said that trader are primarily a team supporter. It mentioned "Difficulty to play: High" and coming from other games i assumed that if something is harder to do, it is also more powerful if done right (for example using manual gears in a driving simulation).

The description said that i could drain opponents, transfering those benefits to myself (or my allies if i wish). Turning others into cracked shells of their former selfs sounded like fun. It didn't mention that i should only leave 100% zones when i'm surrounded by a crowd of people with actual skills that might spare a moment to keep me alive, but will probably fail as we seem to be supposed to be alpha-fodder.

Dunno where you got your idea from how a trader is meant to be played, but I'm sure you will enlighten me.

And you will probably enlighten me why a team should invite a trader for PvP. Rouse Outfit only has a range of 1m and the reclaim terminal/decontamination room is further away...

[Obtena]

Dunno where you got your idea from how a trader is meant to be played, but I'm sure you will enlighten me.

And you will probably enlighten me why a team should invite a trader for PvP.

You're right I will ... My idea is from the tools we get and those that are being proposed. Sure the description of traders isn't all that accurate but that isn't a revelation you make once you reach 220. It also doesn't say anything specific about being a solo artist or how you will perform in PVP either, so using it as a basis for claiming the new nano documents somehow 'stray' from the trader concept is a fallacy. The nano document, perks, i.e. all the tools we get define a trader, not a short paragraph at the beginning of the game. If those tools are team-focused, it's pretty clear that traders are primarily team focused profession.

As for why people should team traders in PVP, that's been covered. For me it was obvious from looking at the nano document and associating that to many other changes, one example out of many being the increased nanocosts for all professions across the board.

[sultryvoltron]

You're right I will ... My idea is from the tools we get and those that are being proposed. Sure the description of traders isn't all that accurate but that isn't a revelation you make once you reach 220. It also doesn't say anything specific about being a solo artist or how you will perform in PVP either, so using it as a basis for claiming the new nano documents somehow 'stray' from the trader concept is a fallacy. The nano document, perks, i.e. all the tools we get define a trader, not a short paragraph at the beginning of the game. If those tools are team-focused, it's pretty clear that traders are primarily team focused profession.

As for why people should team traders in PVP, that's been covered. For me it was obvious from looking at the nano document.

In short, you're making this all up as you go based on your opinion.

[Obtena]

In short, you're making this all up as you go based on your opinion.

Not unlike anyone else, except my version is inline with the reality of the situation. Did YOU or anyone else have some insider information from FC prior to the release of this document to indicate that traders would be THIS and now it contradicts the nano document that says traders should be THAT instead? I don't think so. It's really not my fault that people have invented their own expectations that FC haven't lived up to, but to be fair, FC never said they are going to meet any expectations other than the ones they made. It's their game, they define what traders are as they see fit.

That's no entirely fair to accuse me of 'making it up' either. What you call 'based on my opinion', I call 'analysis'. At least my opinion is supported by the changes being proposed. What is yours supported by? What YOU think things should be? That's nice, but it's completely irrelevant and likely much farther from reality than mine will be.

[Gatester]

And you will probably enlighten me why a team should invite a trader for PvP.

I can handle this one.

150 weapon skill
150 nano skills
Nano regain so that I can spam my nasty new nukes and heals
15% crit so that I do more damage

In the list of professions I would rather team in mass pvp though, it is a bit harder to guage. I would probably team an engie soldier or keeper guaranteed, a crat, a doctor, and enforcer would be good for the emergency absorb. Nano regain professions will be nice but until some actual experience in post-balancing pvp I tend to put them as one of the least necessary compared to damage mitigaters, AAO/AAD enhancers, healers, and a 15k emergency absorb is just plain excellent for zerg/counter zerging.

[JustinSane4]

I'm not sure I buy the "of course Traders are meant to be alpha fodder that must team to survive- just look at the doc!" argument. Partially this is because I don't see why FC would intentionally separate out one victim profession - maybe so every other profession has someone else they can alpha? But mostly it looks to me like FC is trying to keep Traders a profession that survives by their debuffs, but since the debuffs they have now have drawn epic levels of forum agg, they've nerfed the debuffs and buffed Traders' damage and healing through the improved health plunders. I'm guessing that the increased healing is intended to keep them alive.

Personally I kind of doubt it will. And if beta testing shows it doesn't, my hope is that the numbers will be tweaked so that Traders have at least some level of survivability - without being teamed with an engineer, crat, doc and enf at all times that is.

[Obtena]

That is one point I will give to the haters that Gatester is pointing out correctly ... I also don't think the values (requirements, strength, duration, etc...) for the nanotools are significant enough to make traders a HIGHLY desirable teammates over other profs. To be fair, that's a numbers issue, not necessarily addressed by adding new stuff or keeping older broken stuff. As I have said, the direction is there. The numbers will have to be confirmed from actually PVPing with the new changes.

[Syyceria]

Not unlike anyone else, except my version is inline with the reality of the situation. Did YOU or anyone else have some insider information from FC prior to the release of this document to indicate that traders would be THIS and now it contradicts the nano document that says traders should be THAT instead?

I used to be perfectly fine without a team. Even in Tower-PvP i stayed teamless although i was on the tablist of 99% of the people there.

Now there's a plan to nerf us to hell and leave with no defense.

I ask why.

You say "Because you are supposed to be a team supporter. So why do you play a trader?"

I ask "since when am I a primarily team supporter, who says that?"

You say "Look at the nano document of the coming changes, it's the reality".

The document is highly flawed, but you are telling me it is fine because it's how we are supposed to be, according to the document.

Yeahhh....facepalm.jpg.

[Obtena]

I used to be perfectly fine without a team. Even in Tower-PvP i stayed teamless although i was on the tablist of 99% of the people there.

I really don't believe that because TL7 tower wars is based on calling, AS and the bigger zerg. How well you are twinked or know your prof almost becomes a wash in that environment. So unless you have some special tricks, I don't think you were doing 'perfectly fine' once you got called, teamed or not. If you were doing as well as you say once called, it certainly wasn't because traders PVP performance vs. a zerg is one of the best available. Traders PVP awesomeness curve starts high at Opponent = 1 and it's downhill as you get more opponents. We all know this because of the nature of the current tools used primarily in PVP. If you going to claim otherwise and say you have it working vs. the zerg aswell, then you only strengthen the case for nerfing those things that allow you to do that. We know what those things are.

[Syyceria]

Well, sorry, it's not a debate here, but I really don't believe that because TL7 tower wars for the longest time have been based on calling, AS and the bigger zerg. How well you are twinked or know your prof almost becomes a wash in that environment. So unless you have some special tricks, I don't think you were doing 'perfectly fine' once you got called, teamed or not. If you were doing as well as you say, it certainly wasn't because traders PVP performance vs. a zerg is one of the best available. Traders excel at 1 vs. 1 and it's downhill from there.

Autotarget on was my friend. When called i notice that very quickly and run away. Easy since i didn't stay in the middle of the blob. And while busy rooting the people that get called i would also notice if some lone cowboy tries to go for an easy kill. I used to be able to survive that by rooting him or draining him or just playing a bit 1vs1 against him. Don't see that with the new change. And sooner or later those mass-pvp's shrink to a fewvsfew encounters or some 1vs1 when you manage to trick an opponent away.

Maybe I didn't support the zerg as best as I could by blindly hitting assist, aimed shot and happily standing there and tanking incoming damage, but I had fun.

And just to add, I shouldn't be forced to /follow a doc/engineer inside the battlestation. Leave me with a toolset that manages to survive at least 1vs1s for a bit. I'm not even asking for the possibilities I had with my untwinked PvM keeper...

[Larafina]

Being a proffession that cant survive the walk to the toliet if not teamed is only fun, if you can really do something "amazing" when teamed. Traders can`t do that. As gatester stated quite on the point traders are still last on the wishlist, so what was the point in nerfing traders solo ability then ? And it is not about numbers... team absorb, massive heal, massive defense buffs are what matters. If you want nano take a nt, nts at least survive and do dam

[sultryvoltron]

That's no entirely fair to accuse me of 'making it up' either. What you call 'based on my opinion', I call 'analysis'. At least my opinion is supported by the changes being proposed. What is yours supported by? What YOU think things should be? That's nice, but it's completely irrelevant and likely much farther from reality than mine will be.

So everyone's opinion that's different than yours is further from reality because you base your opinion around a few nanos while you ignore a slew of other nanos? Right, that's flawless analysis.


Here's a much more reasonable analysis: Taking a profession with already weak self defenses at high levels, removing some of that defense, removing a grotesquely huge amount of the debuff-based defense, and countering with ... no defense increase at all and a more cluttered up casting queue for a predominantly caster class is a very bad balancing design.

[Obtena]

So everyone's opinion that's different than yours is further from reality because you base your opinion around a few nanos while you ignore a slew of other nanos? Right, that's flawless analysis.

Sure, if that's the limits of your comprehension, then you go with that. If it makes you more happy to spin what I'm saying than understand how this nano document is going to unfold and try to make it better, then I guess your contribution to this thread is over right?

[ArienSky]

Not unlike anyone else, except my version is inline with the reality of the situation. Did YOU or anyone else have some insider information from FC prior to the release of this document to indicate that traders would be THIS and now it contradicts the nano document that says traders should be THAT instead? I don't think so. It's really not my fault that people have invented their own expectations that FC haven't lived up to, but to be fair, FC never said they are going to meet any expectations other than the ones they made. It's their game, they define what traders are as they see fit.

That's no entirely fair to accuse me of 'making it up' either. What you call 'based on my opinion', I call 'analysis'.

You claim that you are right and that FC does not need to and will not listen to this debate..
Obtena, this project is hosted by Kintaii, mentioned in the FW(o)M.. -ofcause- this is to hear feedback.. not to present "tablets set in stone", didn't you see that the note was called "first draft".

Things are not set in stone
We have some clay tablets we still can mold all we like, before -later- hardening them in the oven.

So no, you are not right.
1) the documents are drafts.. even 1st drafts
2) it is OUR(the players) game, not YOUR(FunCom, quite apparently you feel like one of them)

The trader we have "invented" as you call it is based on the principle:
Drain mob -> strong trader
Buff team -> weaker trader
it is in the name TRADER

it is in the description of the profession.. it is how it has worked forever.. it is not an imagination, but reality..

You keep on the "buff team"-track, but neglect the "drain mob" part..
and FunCom also invents new nanos that just -give- buffs, without draining the trader..

now.. what is the profession called again?

That is why we have "1st draft" and drafts in general, so we (FunCom family & friends, meaning FunCom AND the players in a happy union) can get around adjusting things to be fair and fun for everyone
the "FunCom are dictators not listening to you and WE are right!"-approach does not make good costumer service nor games..

Obtena, please let the Trader professionals take care of this debate
if you want to comment as a player, fine, but when you start to use your "I am professional" as bullets in a crusade against other players, then I think you have crossed the line of inappropriate behaviour..
Now you say my interpretation of what a trader is, is not right, can you then please define it for me?
What I have gotten from you so far is:

Needs a team to survive
Buffs without draining that skill/nano from anywhere else

Then my next question is: does that sound fun?
Doctors have always complained over low DPS.. because it is not that fun.
They do manage and survive without a team though, just slow.

You argue to create a profession that -only- works in teams?
[that is a direct question, to see if I have understood you (and FunCom?) right]
one that will die without a team..

Being able to do something on your own, solo is fun and rewarding, at least to me. I like teams better, but they are not always there. Should there really be a profession where you only sit waiting for teams, while other professions can solo while they are waiting?
A very principal question, if such professions should exist in the game.
I have not mentioned "trader", but the principle of an inherent gimp profession, not able to solo.

Such a gimp profession should be a HUGE boost to teams though, to compensate for being fragile, dieing and dealing less damage than the tougher professions (eg. soldiers).
So what should the team do when the fragile profession dies?
are they reliant on his/her buff so much that they need to stop killing, waiting for him?

In that situation I think the team would take on easier mobs, where the fragile profession is not needed, rather than having to risk frequent waits of 5-10 min. whenever the fragile profession dies..

--you think this is a fairytale? I personally know several doctors not wanting to team Agents they do nto know or that are nto spoken for as skilled.. Better to take someone with less DPS, but a steady stream, than one with high DPS that dies every 10 min..

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

PS. Obtena, at least stop insulting people and -argue- the pros of your opinion and the cons of the other part, stating someone/something is "fail" and your opinion is "the obvious right one" is not an argument, those are insults.

What I mean with this last paragraph is:
Please be professional in your behaviour, not using words like "fail" when talking about opinions contrary to your own, also you are indeed an elected professional, but you are the -enforcer- one.
Get down the professional horse and talk like you are just one of us, regular players, without godly inspiration

Things are not set in stone
We have some clay tablets we still can mold all we like, before -later- hardening them in the oven.

[Shareida]

I just think, someone got very upset, because he got killed by traders too often, and now thinks it's time to take revenge. I do not like putting people on ignore lists on forums, but sometimes i have no choice. I hope more people will take this advice.

[Obtena]

I used to be able to survive that by rooting him or draining him or just playing a bit 1vs1 against him. Don't see that with the new change. And sooner or later those mass-pvp's shrink to a fewvsfew encounters or some 1vs1 when you manage to trick an opponent away.

I don't see how that matters. AGAIN ... balance isn't focused around 1 vs. 1 encounters. The holistic approach doesn't allow it. You can't play trader like you have been for the last few years? Well, that's the point really. The concept of traders is being defined as these new tools come out, just like some of the roles that are being changed for PVM tanking on soliders or secondary healing for MA's. There isn't some set of rules or guidelines for what defines a trader that FC needs to adhere to. They define it WITH the tools they make available. If that means traders will suck for 1 vs. 1 PVP, I don't really have a problem with that. From all indications with the other nano docs, not alot, if any, of professions will be very successful in PVP being unteamed anyways. From that respect, I hope the current toolset only gets MORE focused on the teaming aspect, to ensure traders get the BEST teams to be successful in PVP.

If you don't feel that the whole 'teaming' thing is going to work for you in PVP, your problem is much bigger than trader drain nerfs. It's going to be all of AO PVP.

[ArienSky]

I just think, someone got very upset, because he got killed by traders too often, and now thinks it's time to take revenge. I do not like putting people on ignore lists on forums, but sometimes i have no choice. I hope more people will take this advice.

I agree if someone is just unreasonable and insulting, Ignore is a good feature..
sadness comes when the insulting person is a company representative..

if the one you are hinting on to ignore is Obtena, I will advice you to not do that, he is a FunCom representative in his job as Enforcer professional..
What I can encourage is for you to get your friends to vote on someone you know and like, or at least not the one(s) you dislike, at the next election.

That is how democracy work
We fix problems, rather than ignore them.

But yes, I have considered the same thing, as I have issues with my opinion being called "fail" and "far from reality", with the counter-argument of "it is obvious"..

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

I hope this encouraged you to stay with and believe in the democratic professional system, rather than hit "ignore", Shareida

[sultryvoltron]

If you don't feel that the whole 'teaming' thing is going to work for you in PVP, your problem is much bigger than trader drain nerfs. It's going to be all of AO PVP.

And we should just throw PvM to the wayside in the process? Really, the issues are alot more diverse than you acknowledge, slyly brushing them under the carpet simply as 'trader drain nerfs'.

[Syyceria]

If you don't feel that the whole 'teaming' thing is going to work for you in PVP, your problem is much bigger than trader drain nerfs. It's going to be all of AO PVP.

Dear Obtena,

a lot of experienced trader contributed with concerns and worries about the draft. You defend the draft by refering to the dubious draft itself. It's all obvious and we just fail to see it. And this doesn't seem to be enough, now you start with what seems to be personal attacks towards me.

Dunno, but to me it seems you are acting like a troll here instead of a professional. Maybe you should return to your enforcer forum, or continue dancing with the 'nerf trader' squad in the balance forum, but at least I don't need to see another contribution from you in this thread, esp. if they only consist of personal attacks or your awesome line of argumentation.

Thanks a lot,