Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress
MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds
Is the number of 25-30k pvp damage in 10 seconds including the 45% reduction soldiers get? as that would come out to dealing around 50k damage in 10 seconds? And granted engi's will still be able to reduce that 45 to 15 when their pets hit you.
Over 40 seconds may be an issue but that just makes it more imperative to kill your enemy in the 40 seconds you have AMS (if they can kill you in 40s through a min of 45% reflects at end game why can't you kill them? theres many classes that don't have as reliable defense as reflects and last I checked soldiers are one of the better damage dealers...)
I would ask where the 5-25% more damage in 2 seconds comes from? The reflect reduction only lasts the 2 seconds it takes you to take the 30% damage from the hot (which is supposedly meant to be after you killed your enemy but I can see it happening while still fighting)
Sure AMS has been reduced, but other peoples had big reductions as well and are still getting some, and the hot... im a bit jealous of that hot, it seems so much better than the fixers short hot that its insulting.
Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 13th, 2010 at 22:06:22.
My gut feeling is that end result of "rebalance" will be a simple shuffling of the current profession stacking order. These changes will lower the soldiers position.
Only sensible thing to do is vie for your profs place/advancement in said order. Just as every non-sold supporting the nerfs is doing here... call me a pessimist, maybe I've played too long, I dunno, my 2 cred.
For all the people who have put effort into this with the genuine good faith interest of balancing, I apologize if i hurt any feelings. Obviously I have a 220 sold, so I am somewhat dismayed.
Yes. Remember awhile back when reflects got nerfed and it became easy to cap through reflects... even cap through TMS at TL5?
Depending on your prof and your setup, whether it's 10 seconds or 39 seconds, it will now be twice as easy to kill a soldier and that HoT isn't a last resort for us, it's something we must cast if any opponent is attacking us.
If you see good soldiers fighting good crats, shades, and MAs, the "squishy profs" currently, you notice that most of the fights last longer than 40 seconds (but not much longer than 80, go figure). We didn't see any change to DoF and Limber in the public perk docs, did we? Evade profs are still going to be ignoring alot more damage than 80% AMS will protect from, and the only prof soldiers will be able to kill in under 40s are agents, because RI in its overpowered state seems to be staying ingame.
It's very easy to watch for a soldier mysteriously taking two big chunks of HP in damage and pour your fast-landing heavy DD in then. When NTs nuke people now it only lasts 1 second and I can still get Burst and FA into that hole on enemy soldiers 8 out of 10 times.
Last edited by Questra; Nov 13th, 2010 at 22:14:03.
After rebalance when AS has been nerfed and evades have been reworked?
I know at the moment (disclaimer, my fixer is not the best but not the worst built) soldiers are one of the few classes that can actually hit me reliably without AS, heck there one of the few that have managed to kill me through dof/limb/deceptive though that was back while I was capping and they had free roam to blast me without being shot at.
Generally I lose to soldiers simply due to the large amount of unevadable damage I receive from the shields coupled with the luck normal shots and lethal specials that can actually hit through a fixers base (and even limbered) defenses plus removal of my healing. Which is why I tend to just leave them and run past until AMS is down, where a more even fight can happen.
And yes, im sure there's plenty of fixers that can beat you as well but again that is now, afterwards it may be a lot lot different.
And questra, I'm not sure what could cap through 80% reflects, 45% perhaps with the top damage specials, but through 80% against your own lowest hp score of 25k you'd have to do a 37.5k damage hit to cap through ams... who the hell can do that? And with that same score only full auto will cap (aimed shot will be close to cap as it takes 13.7k damage) to cap through 45% reflects.
And yes it may be easy to see a soldier take a large chunk of damage (if you see the second one your already too late) unless of course its more than 1v1 as you never know what others are doing to them. And while its easy-ish to hit with the NT nuke pierce you do have a fairly obvious que for that (see big lightning hit specials)
If it is 1v1 then ideally the soldier would have finished you off before that happens.
And of course I still work with the belief that no one should be able to go 2v1 or more with ease.
Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 13th, 2010 at 22:21:49.
Well whatever happens, we can always buy XP stims now and make new 220s if we aren't happy with our profs after the rebalance.
If I'm still around then I'll be going for a 220 ranged or melee advy. It's just a shame that research is capped at 5%
Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress
MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds
The hot could use some adjustment considering OMHH is replaced by it does seem a bit limited in use.
I'm not quite following your line of though about the enf team absorbs. They are on a 8/12 minute timer and only give the team a huge absorb (the enf is excluded from that buff) and also self nuke the enf for 7,515kpvp dmg hp. It's not a personal survival tool.
Right. And stackable with the nemesis heal eff debuff I take it?As for RI: GTH and BR got nerfed and rightly so. I think the only way to make RI fair would be to make it into a general 20 to 35% heal effeciency debuff. Agents have been expecting a nerf to RI for a long time and while one may believe that they will have other Mimic options that are appealing other than doc, one soldier with RI around will turn Mimic Doc into a vastly inferior option, and soon very few TL7 agents will be using doc. Most PvP soldiers have admitted that RI is unfair and have called for a long time for it to be nerfed.
Last edited by XenonDe; Nov 13th, 2010 at 23:02:02. Reason: doh pvp damage
Deadly Whisper - RK1
too many alts for to little space
Well i dont mind adjustments, i hope stuff outside prof rebalance program like aad/etc, special AR, reflect/coon order may help us.
Though most have various forms of def, that have ether 30 or 20 sec durations, so when cycled they gain in essence over a minute of defense in some form, yet sold's will only get 40secs of ams. Sure we gain some HP but that gone in one hit from anyone decent (or say two).
So im concerned about soldier survivability post 40seconds, the hot/heal aint supposed to be used all time and cant be., it's a last resort style nano not a cyclic style defense mechanism.
Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )
Said the pixels lol..
Agreed gun.
Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )
Said the pixels lol..
I always find issue with things when people say "without this we have no defense".
Specially when you do have defense you just don't seem to find it useful.
I mean a 220 soldier, after ams will still be reducing damage by nearly half, thats a still very major reduction that no one else really gets, on top of that with some of the HD number I've seen thrown around in this thread your getting healing practically equal to a fixers top self hot (if my maths was correct it came out as around 132 hps for the soldier and 150 hps for the fixers 6% hot which only heals every 8 seconds rather than every 2) and a better short hot in emergencys (fixers has the advantage of always being on, soldiers has the advantage of healing a decent amount quickly during the period its useful)
Add to that a large hp and above average AC's (may not be as effective as people would like but they are better than many people think) I don't think there in such a bad position.
Not when there's classes out there that don't really have any sort of defense or those defenses they do have can be completely negated.
Now Im not saying soldiers are uber unkillable beacons of death, but I certainly won't say their completely defenseless once AMS is down.
I think in many 1v1 situations after rebalance soldiers will be able to hold their own fairly easily. Specially considering the main enemies that might draw a fight out over 40seconds are the healers and you have great anti-healer tools.
Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )
Said the pixels lol..
So your saying any one that has defense that can be cycled to last over 40s is better than 40s ams?
That depends entirely on how effective that cyclic defense is, and I assume this is dof/limber your talking about.
For all we know 200 AAD will be next to useless by itself and requre DoF to be used just to get a reasonable defense out of it (which would then stick it to a 40s period of defense). Or it could be boosted to the point where 3.2k base AR wont have a chance of hitting even just the 200AAD.
If we look at how it works now (which we really shouldn't) the dof/limber cycle would remain fairly potent if still luck based defense against weapon damage and still prevent almost all perks hitting but still nullified by the window cause by mongo rage, still useless against nano programs, and ignored entirely by AS (slower though it will be) and lucky hits not to mention completely removable/countered by certain nanos from other classes while AMS will be a permanent 80 hd boost, and a reliable 80% damage reduction against any incoming damage bar that done by engineers or traders who can reduce it to the base 45% (or 50% for traders) that soldiers will have normally.
Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 14th, 2010 at 04:05:04.
Xenotic, if/when DoF/Limber remain the same and people are still popping 1k AAD perks and noone is able to perk anyone else, are you going to retract everything you've said here, or will you just be sitting back and smiling while you eat soldiers on BS?
If anyone can have a fair change to kill anyone else in under a minute that's balance. However, I can't see any prof with access to Acrobat dying that quickly considering the majority of profs who currently use AS will be losing it.
I really don't want to play a prof that anyone can kill in under a minute because all nukes, all debuffs, all specials, all damage, and all perks land easy.
45% reflect isn't much of a secondary defense when many profs can 1) Cap you through that and 2) Evade and/or outheal more damage than AMS mitigates without any cooldown or downtime. All of the evade profs ingame can easily be unperkable during Limber, and that includes advies and shades. And this is coming from someone with TL7 Ransacking and AAO towers and Assault Rifle contracts playing against evade profs with ql 100 Transfer towers at the most.
Last edited by Questra; Nov 14th, 2010 at 04:22:54.
If it remains the same then yes I will retract some of whats said (even if that isn't changed lots of other parts of those professions have/will so overall power will still have dropped)
I'd also point out that unless the AS pistol and stuff like the onehander are actually being removed, no one is "loosing" AS, its just being reduced in power (14s instead of 11s with a 3s interuptable period against melee classes isn't removal, just nerfage)
And unless Im missing some major things here, only the large specials have a hope of capping through 45% reflects, full auto being the only one for definite, any other with a 13k damage cap falling just short of completely capping (but close enough that it makes no difference I guess) and thats against your own minimum hp estimation (which may change with rework of items and such).
This of course only relates to those professions that can hit damage caps after pvp reductions as well and you've stated some of these are apparently getting removed from people?
Those same attacks can also cap through dof/limber/healing (granted full auto is less than reliable in this situation but as/sa completely ignore the defense totally)
And I doubt people will be healing that much in a fight against soldier what with his fairly potent anti-healer tools and the healing nerf to come.
So what it comes down to is:
If dof/limber/aad in general doesn't get changed you will be at a disadvantage against those using those tools.
If dof/limber/aad in general does get changed it will come down to whether or not you can kill them before they kill you, at the moment the most we can really imagine for this at the moment would be making dof/limber no longer be able to cycle thus setting them to a 40s duration only (same as some other peoples big defense moves) and a worse/capped base chance of evading.
Taking in consideration that the capping specials have fairly long cooldown and you decrease most other damage considerably even without ams, and an emergency extra 30 seconds combat time I don't see it being that far out that soldiers will be able to hold their own, if not terrify people in 1v1 fights.
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A part that will almost certainly cause flaming:
Doing a bit of theory crafting here. Funcom state that soldiers should be able to get in the region of 30k hp, they state fixers should get around the 15k mark.
Soldiers then get a 45% reflect add onto that soldiers other defenses (higher ac's, their own upped evades should they go that way) I'd say they can expect to remove around half the damage directed at them before ams. This means anyone that aims to kill needs to deal around 60k damage in total attacks.
For a fixer to approach that amount of defense needed to kill him he would need to be evading 75% of all attacks reliably.
add in AMS then to kill in 40s, soldiers need to be hit with 150,000-200,000 damage (depending if you carry on the few % more damage reduction into this)
A fixer would have to be evading 90-92.5% of all attacks reliably to equal the survivability.
This is of course before you factor in healing. Just a little food for thought.
Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 14th, 2010 at 05:47:15.
You realize if I-precognition stays out of game, evades are no longer even close to being viable. Right now with an EVERYTHING equip geared towards aad/evades, you can just barely break the 3k mark which is when the evades show a little bit.
Take away 110 of that, and you wont be unperkable to anyone, and you wont be evading any specials or regulars to make it worth while.