Enfs and Attack rating

[Moonbolt]

that is one of the issues with the whole if u can perk/alpha it u can kill it system that AO has become.
if u cant alpha a healer class he will be fully healed within seconds...
if u cant perk a target u cant deal any dmg to them.
or atleast not bring them even remotely close to injured.

[Gatester]

Should an enforcer have perks that land regardless of AR vs def?
Should an enforcer be able to eventually gain enough AR over time to perk any opponent?
Should an enforcer have professions they cannot perk but viably kill with regular hits?

People do not like their defenses to be ignored, and I do not either. There are enough good ideas to fundementally alter the way enforcer offensive play is managed to make it both viable and enjoyable. Many also require an enforcer to become stronger over time, and not immediately perk+stun alpha an opponent dead and then run away.

Enforcers need a balanced way to kill all professions as all professions should have a way to kill an enforcer. This will never happen as long as we hold on to too many things that make balancing as a whole impossible.

[sultryvoltron]

3) and 5) contradict each other.
Nice logic

Not true.

3) Says that Rage should serve as a counter to the strategic advantage provided by roots and snares. The future strategic advantage will be either to stop the Enf from running away for a brief period, or to gain a slight distance advantage when running from the Enf.

5) Simply states that Rage should not completely eliminate the ability to use Roots and Snares. The current incarnation of rage makes it highly unlikely to land Greater Paralyze with Indecision on top enfs. When it lands, it is instantly broken. When you take into consideration the incoming changes to roots and snares, there is a very likely possibility for roots and snares to be completely ignored by Enforcers, exactly like they are now.

For example: It has been hinted at a 8-10ish second lockout for Rage. At the same time, roots and snares are likely to see their duration reduced into the teens with many people calling for ~1min+ lockouts. That means Rage can break 6-8 roots in the time it takes for roots to recharge. Thus, it would take 6-8 rooters to keep the Enf pinned in place. It would be far simpler for those 6 people to just kill the Enf than to even bother with roots.

Hence, these are not contradictory statements.

Should an enforcer have perks that land regardless of AR vs def?
Should an enforcer be able to eventually gain enough AR over time to perk any opponent?
Should an enforcer have professions they cannot perk but viably kill with regular hits?

Maybe?
Yes.
Yes. With the ammendment of not being practically immune to CC in the case of Crat vs. Enf.

[Lisergia]

Yes.
Yes. With the ammendment of not being practically immune to CC in the case of Crat vs. Enf.

Now that does contradict.

[sultryvoltron]

Now that does contradict.

Meh, I meant that Enf regular hits should be able to do considerable and threatening damage, particularly on the 2-handed weapons. Over time, the Enf may get enough AR to perk the Crat (should be more necessary on 1-handed weapons), but also may not have to (more likely for 2-handed weapons).

I can see how that was unclear.

[Hellrule]

Meh, I meant that Enf regular hits should be able to do considerable and threatening damage, particularly on the 2-handed weapons. Over time, the Enf may get enough AR to perk the Crat (should be more necessary on 1-handed weapons), but also may not have to (more likely for 2-handed weapons).

I can see how that was unclear.

End game enforcers has the edge vs crats. 40 secs of good evades and then splat

[sultryvoltron]

End game enforcers has the edge vs crats. 40 secs of good evades and then splat

I understand that, but if enfs were more susceptible to CC this would be less of a lopsided battle.

[Hellrule]

Yeah its true, but everyone needs these cc tool resistants. even i admit its pretty ridiculous that i can keep lower or noob pvmers rooted for hours if i very so desired. once we remove the 30min snares and several minute long roots, im sure lost of these resistances will be removed from game

[fortorn]

Ok, IM and RK2 enfo. I'm not totally endgame yet but even where I am (218/21/57) i see things that I like and I don't like. I'm just registering my opinions as an average player and his experiences. I have been a 2he enfo, which is basically pointless now. I was a 1he which was fun but the dmg was too low and no good perks. I switched to duel spec and I loved the dmg there but the tanking sacrifice was not worth the dmg. I am now a full 1hb and this, to me, is the place to be as an enf imo because you do decent dmg (for what our dmg is which isnt much)and the perks are useful in most situations.

#1 Squishy profs like NTs, fixers, traders, crats, docs really should never have the ability to solo an enforcer. Do bad things to an enf to decrease survival rate, sure, but soloing should be hard.

#2 Dmg profs should have the ability to solo an enf more easily (shades, soldiers, MAs, Advs, ect). What is irritating about these particular profs is not only can they usually solo an enf, but they can do it easily. The prof I have the most trouble with is Soldiers. Yes this is the ranged tank, but when toe to toe should they really have the ability to do 10x more dmg to us and take far less? I find it quite odd personally.

#3 One thing everyone seems to address here more than anything is PvP. Why is that? There are changes that need to be made to an enf in PvM that are long overdue. For instance, does everyone know a set of high end mobs you can solo but the enf cannot? I do, i know some badass enfs that can't solo the same mob that a doc, or advy, or shade can. We were graciously given nanos that allow us to serve a vital role in a team - have enourmous HP, for which we can take no advantage of personally due to its deliterious effects, and area taunts that keep everyone safe give us a modest, modest HoT and increase our size. Sure some profs should be better at some things than other but i far far far to often see better tanks out of advys and soldiers than enforcers,and not usually for lack of skill or even toolset, just better.

AMS > BC is kinda what i mean here. Reflects totally blow us outta the water when it comes to tanking too. Lets not forget where the only melee class with no big DMG special either.

What erks me the most is this prof is supposed to be the big daddy. Enforcers should have options like the class type suggests. Why can we not choose more readily to evade and taunt, or perhaps to stun and fear, or better yet, to deal enormous dmg at the expense of survivability?

We get some of these things but not anything satisfying. No if you want fun, play a soldier or an advy or a pet class. If you need a utility for massive blob raids that require a nexus of dmg to be centered on, lvl an enf and use only for that.

If you want to solo in PvP or PvM, go get an evade prof or a pet prof.

To me throughout all levels of my enforcer, i have always been displeased because you can never really be anything yourself. Its as if you are a support class that always requires support and even though you have more HP than the almighty, you will alwasy be hit and you cannot dish out half of whats hitting you. You cannot stop it, you cannot run from it (now), you cannot combat the fact that enforcers are a class hopelessly broken. An alpha is good for a laugh, "oh i got that (squishy) MP or crat", but when other non tank profs tank your dmg as if you arent hitting them (at all lvls) it gets old.

I rarely see other enfs in BS or area pvp or keepers for that matter. Why? These profs aren't fun. They are utilities to be used and set aside when the raid is done, vital components built into the game. If you gave an advie or a soldier the ultra behemoth and mongo and maybe nerfed some of their other defenses slightly, enfs would be obsolete completely. Or better yet merge the enfo and keeper class and make a total tank that is worthless for dmg like both profs already are.

So as you can gather from my post thus far, I personally think enfs need some help. We need to stop ppl from attacking us (kind of what you'd expect a brute to do through pushing ppl down or knocking them in the head with a bat) OR we need to heal ourselves more effectively. Otherwise, just get it over with and kill the prof.

Again, this is just my experience. I think my experience is about average but by no means a total treatise on enfo building. However, if enfos get all the defenses in our tool set taken that have been suggested thus far just to please the squishy profs that want to alpha pvp and lord over the tank as a god.... I think ill retire my enfo and I wont OST or work with any raid force again.
I will not be the pawn of the support classes in a raid and the first to die in PvM nor will I be the first to die and the last to kill in PvP.

[howlin]

#1 Squishy profs like NTs, fixers, traders, crats, docs really should never have the ability to solo an enforcer.

Nice.

[Notcrattey]

I rarely see other enfs in BS

Wut. I don't think I can do a BS without seeing an enf.

[Obtena]

Nice.

I agree. In fact, I would expand that statement ...

If AO is about team PVP, then it's sensible to have a singificant reliance on team PVP tools to be successful. It should be stupidly hard for any solo prof to kill any other solo profession and if it was, the team dynamic in PVP is more complex to manage and co-ordinate with. i.e., it's more interesting PVP, especially for those interested in that level of mental application to be involved in it. We already know FC has stated many times they aren't balancing for individual profs. All you people need to get with the program.

If you are squishy with profession X, you need to leverage your teaming PVP background against that and FC needs to enable more professions to have to do that to encourage the team PVP environment. It's a continuous stream of stupidity hearing the arguments about how prof X vs. prof Y is this and that, so it's gimp/OP. If that's the level of simplicity you want your PVP to work on, it's never going to be interesting beyond a duel.

[Koizumi]

It should be stupidly hard for any solo prof to kill any other solo profession

So basically you agree with many people stating here that enf's offense should be significantly nerfed (and possibly made more team-reliant), right?

[Moonbolt]

I dont agree to it....
enforcer is 100% perk reliant to kill opponents except crats.
the game needs a general change so that the figths gets moer even in alot of ways but what u people here are crying for is that enforcers should never be able to kill any opponent.
get real.

enforcers provides 1 thing in PvM.... they aer a hughe meatwall and tbh not even tanking they are doin best atm.
ive seen advs, shades, MAs tank 12 man better then an enf. hell ive even seen an adv solo kite it for 10 mins when the rest of the team wiped untill the team had ran back, rezzed and buffed up again to start the figt back over.
the adv lived thru to tank it aswell and since he never died or lost agro it was impossible to catch agro back from him so he ended up tanking the rest of the fight.

enfocers provide 1 thing in mass pvp.... they have a great alpha that they can unleash on 1 opponent / min, after ofcourse having to get in range of him first with all the AoE snares/roots flying around. if a NT bothered to root him he would never be able to even get a target.
but yeah we take about 3 seconds to die like every other class when we are called aswell.
so were just 1 more body to the grinder.

enforcers brings 1 thing to small team pvp... we can alpha 1 target... preferably the doc in the other team before we are more or less compeltly harmless for the rest of the fight.

enforcers are doin pretty good right now in 1 vs 1 pvp.... like duels etc and in some cases BS when we get to find targets solo etc.
we can alpha 1 target if its not a soldier or any evade class every 1 min, or if its an evade class thats not a fixer we can alpha them every 3 mins.
if its a fixer in endgame setup that knows what they are doin we cant alpha them.

what are the other professions adding to the 3 different types of PvP?

shades... pretty much the same as enfs but on a much faster recharge.

MAs... heals and pretty steady dmg and they to can alpha pertty good at endgame.

Fixers.... except the obviuos GSF/HoT/NCU dispencer they provide f-grid and meeps wich i beleive that noone can deny being a very powerfull pvp tool in towerbattles.
they also imo are the hardest profession to kill if ur not a NT.

crats.... they increase the whole groups offence/defence, they increase nanoregen, they got their pets that do serius dmg to my trader even if they are double drained and they got the AoE fear wich is aswell a hughe boost in pvp for the side with them.

doctors... do i even need to mention what docs bring to mass pvp and team pvp? .. they are also nearly impossible for most classes to kill solo.

Engies? MPs? Traders? Agents? Soldiers? Keepers? Advs? im not even gonna bother typing down what those profs brings to a team pvp and mass pvp as u all are well aware of already.
or atleast u should be.

the 2 least professions u want in ur team ever in pvp is enfs and shades.. they bring basically 0 to the team survival.

and tbh enfs got one of the worst def ratings in game.... a pretty good AR(not best tho, and reliant on proc to get above decent), pretty crappy healing vs HP ratio etc.

u guys are only focusing on the strong sides of the enfs and mentioning none of the downsides.

ive tried to point them out in several places in this thread earlier.
if u feel like it, either lvl up an enf to find out yourself or trust my word for it i dont care.

in short u can summarise the enfs strenghts and weaknesses in.

strenghts = nasty alpha, absorbs, unalphable(except for shades), high NR, almost unrootable.

weaknesses = specials deal to much dmg, they are melee, neglectable dmg while alpha is down, no point in high runspeed since everyones capped, can be perked by everyone, NT roots litterary f*cks us over, doesnt bring anything to team pvp in the way of helping ur team mates survive or increase their killing powers.

when ur talking about balance u need to look at all 3 types of pvp we have in AO, Mass, Team and solo pvp.

at solo pvp enforcers are on the upper half on the pvp scale but id say that NTs, soldiers, fixers, advs are better off in the solo pvp. and MA / shade is pretty equal.

in team pvp where lets say 3 vs 3 or 6 vs 6 pvp id say that enfs is on the bottom of that list of what they contribute to the team.

in mass pvp all Melee classes are basically completly usless except keepers for the anti fears.

btw... im talking about endgame pvp and always endgame pvp... thats the starting point where balance needs to be set to get as decent balance in this game as possible.

[Weltall]

my eyes... my eyes...

[Obtena]

So basically you agree with many people stating here that enf's offense should be significantly nerfed (and possibly made more team-reliant), right?

Sorry, I said that? Well, if it makes you slept better at night, sure, that's what I said. Oh and by the way, you're clever, but don't tell anyone because you also tricked FC into believing it too.

[Koizumi]

Sorry, I said that? Well, if it makes you slept better at night, sure, that's what I said. Oh and by the way, you're clever, but don't tell anyone because you also tricked FC into believing it too.

Ofcourse you did
Since enfos got an easy mode killing a majority of players atm, solo ofcourse, i suppose thats an obvious agreement ^^

Oh, and btw, if u aint got anything smart to say, at least stop posting, personal shots like that only make you look like anything but an enfo 'professional' that you supposedly are (more like a 9 years old kid :/)...

[Obtena]

Ofcourse you did
Since enfos got an easy mode killing a majority of players atm, solo ofcourse, i suppose thats an obvious agreement ^^

I can say that about anyone with AS too. You're making an argument from nothing. I don't think anyone should demolish anyone else in a solo situation. If you want to make that a platform to nerf enfos, it's a stupid one since you are missing the point of the whole 'teaming' aspect of that position entirely. Keep it up though. I can't wait to see the QQ posts from you because FC didn't see the obvious error in not nerfing enfos in their re-balancing efforts. Entertainment for all really.

Honestly, if you are that bitter that enfos are that OP in PVP, even with your array of 220 characters to choose from that most enfos would consider 'problematic', maybe this isn't the game for you to play. Being unhappy with your position (or multiple positions) in TL7 PVP is no reason to make any specific profession your scapegoat.

[Obtena]

Again, this is just my experience. I think my experience is about average but by no means a total treatise on enfo building.

I wanted to respond to this because we did talk about it together. I want to assure you and other enfos out that haven't fullyequipped themselves that their is a significant step up in enfo capability if you reach a full endgame setup. Even if you aren't choosing to use 1HE/1HB typical setup, you will find your capabilities increase dramatically as you cross a threshold of AR, enabling you to land hit and perk people.

The AAD thing isn't as critical for that threshold ... enfos still get hit and hard. It's difference is when fighting upcoming characters, but vs. endgamers, I'm convinced it's value is minimized to not being critted, unless your are blessed with crat aura, keeper team auras, towers, etc... and at that point any sane person would question how relevant those number become in a discussion about balancing anyways.

So, you might have seen me say numerous times enfos lack AR and everyone wondering WTF I'm talking about? I'm talking for the majority of enfos leveling and trying to PVP in BS that aren't capable of doing **** in PVP because they aren't full end-game setups.

[Gatester]

Since enfos got an easy mode killing a majority of players atm, solo ofcourse, i suppose thats an obvious agreement ^^

This would imply that enforcers can win a majority of one on one encounters. Ignoring what the majority of active pvp professions are, simply taking it as a case by case situation I can assure everyone that your statement is accurate, but irrelevant.

The only professions enforcers have an easy mode for killing are crats, doctors, and MPs.

For crats, we have 2 perks that will completely bypass their defense, SA, and a very high possible AR while defensively we can ignore their CC tools, generally avoid pet damage during highway, and are highly resistant to their nanos.

For doctors, we have an alpha (the only way besides GTH to viably kill the profession) that can work eventually while removing their DoT lines with rage, avoiding or ignoring much of their offensive nano toolset, and doctors honestly not having enough DPM to kill an enforcer.

For MPs, they either lack the defense to avoid our perks while using a bow, or they lack the offense to viably kill us while using a shield.

You referred to players, however, which has in fact made your statement accurate. The majority of players are not endgame and have unfinished parts of their toolsets which makes them vulnerable to enforcer's 1he/1hb combination. These "greens" and "gimps" are also easily killed by the easy mode tools of Adventurers, Agents, Bureaucrats, Doctors, Engineers, Fixers, Keepers, Martial artists, Meta-physicists, Nano-technicians, Shades, Soldiers, and Traders.

Your comment turns out to be a round-about way of saying weaker players die, and they also make up the majority of the playerbase.