Viable AMS de-nerf.

[Xees]

AMS is the only solid defense a soldier have.

Soldiers have very low NR, very low evades and low runspeed. (If you want to hit anyone that is).
If ams were to be nerfed soldiers would be in a very bad state. I cannot AMS if there is a trader around, If there is a engi running around AMS is also pointless. And NTS rapes soldiers, yes, RAPES.
(Even if these wouldnt be around AMS isnt the GODLIKE GOD DEFENSE it used to be, Im sorry it just isnt and it shouldnt be)
Is AMS a strong defense ability? F**K yes! Does it need major nerfing? No.

[Provision]

So after smacking AMS and deciding your target will outlast and kill you, you decide to run off the second it drops. -nano skills isn't enough of a debuff, I think being able to GSF run to woompahs until AMS is back up, rinse and repeat isn't PVP at all. I mean seriously, look in BS these days. You litterally have some 220 soldier run into a group of 10 people, alpha kill 1 person tank tank tank tank tank Alpha next person tank tank tank tank tank tank tank.. ams down.. WOOOOOMPAH! Kind of lame having to put soldiers on /follow.

[Wrangeline]

So after smacking AMS and deciding your target will outlast and kill you, you decide to run off the second it drops. -nano skills isn't enough of a debuff, I think being able to GSF run to woompahs until AMS is back up, rinse and repeat isn't PVP at all. I mean seriously, look in BS these days. You litterally have some 220 soldier run into a group of 10 people, alpha kill 1 person tank tank tank tank tank Alpha next person tank tank tank tank tank tank tank.. ams down.. WOOOOOMPAH! Kind of lame having to put soldiers on /follow.

To be honest, it doesn't look like you and me even play the same game >.<

[Provision]

Coming from a trader, of course you wouldn't see that. They run from you naturally. Now (insert any other profession) most soldiers will simply walk up to, fail a alpha and hit AMS. Practically /disco while we wait then OH SNAPITY! AMS IS DOWN! ZooM! I personally find it hallarious, but in the same aspect annoying after seeing 5-10 soldiers on Omni side in one round doing the same thing over and over. They still lost ofc

[lostlife]

i dont see how a sold going to a whoompa to survive ams downtime is any different from the enemy going to a whoompa to survive ams uptime, which every one faster than solds (quite a few people) have the option of doing

[Wrangeline]

Coming from a trader, of course you wouldn't see that. They run from you naturally. Now (insert any other profession) most soldiers will simply walk up to, fail a alpha and hit AMS. Practically /disco while we wait then OH SNAPITY! AMS IS DOWN! ZooM! I personally find it hallarious, but in the same aspect annoying after seeing 5-10 soldiers on Omni side in one round doing the same thing over and over. They still lost ofc

I'm not a trader. I'm a dude living in Norway. If I'm a trader then I'm a soldier as well because I got an endgame soldier. Hell, if we go down that route, I'm the emperor of china as well but thats a different story and a different game. I also don't "naturally" run from traders in BS when I play my soldier. I kill quite a few traders. It's just about using your perks as fast as possible and really press your DPS at them as much as you can. Sometimes the soldier wins, sometimes the trader wins.

I have no particular interest in people who discuss the abilities of other professions, based only on their own personal opinion and abilities as one profession or another. I'm a big picture kind of guy and while I expect that from others, I also expect that from myself as well.

So no, the reason I don't agree with you has nothing to do with me having a trader on one of my accounts. The reason I don't agree with what you said is because it's not rooted in reality as I see it.

1. Tanking people and then running away when the defenses run out is not something that is specific to soldiers. Everyone else do it too. Some can do it MUCH better, like advs, and most can run away faster than a soldier and resist more roots in the process.

2. A soldier running into a group of 10 enemies and tanking them while alpha killing people is not a realistic scenario. All it takes is for 1 person to have "a heal" and then no alpha the soldier did would have killed anyone. All it takes is for 1 person to be trader or NT or engie to make the soldier die instantly. All it takes is 1 person to have root so that the soldier is unable to move while getting killed very fast, even through AMS. All it takes is for 1 person to have blind and the soldier wont be able to run anywhere very effectively. Everyone have roots and blinds btw. All it takes is for 1 shade or crat or MP to do stuns and the soldier is unable to do much of anything because soldiers can't resist that stuff. All it takes is for them to have an engie and the soldier does pretty much 0 damage. All it takes is for the targets to have enough defenses to make FA miss, which a lot of professions have.

3. Any 220 can run into a group of enemies and splat some green level 210 agent. Some professions can even escape afterwards because they can resist roots and evade most attacks. Soldier is not one of those professions.

4. You say that the -4k nanoskill debuff isn't enough. Until reflect rippers, BR, reflect-ripping nukes are removed, soldiers static defense and NR is improved drastically, you can't really be having the big picture in mind when asking for AMS to debuff the soldier more. Not without suggesting some ways to generally boost the defense of soldiers to compensate for the loss of AMS-effectiveness. Soldiers are far from OP atm so if it's not a question of balance, then it's probably a question of what kind of PvP you think is lame and what isn't. If you think a soldier using his defenses to stay alive and then try to get away when those defenses go down is "lame", then why are you even playing AO? Every profession is like that! Soldiers just so happens to be the profession that sucks the most at "getting away" and out of all the professions, this is the one you go for?

I fail to agree and your view on this situation is extremely different from mine. This is why I said that you and me must be playing different games. Just to be perfectly clear, I had this view on the situation long before I made my endgame soldier. I also didn't have this view because I have a endgame trader. I had this view on the situation because everyone who have PvP'ed in AO for more than a week would have had no problems identifying all the drawbacks to being a soldier and there are a lot of them.

[Gatester]

my apologies gate, i guess ignore was the wrong word for the situation, as for strongest offence, i agree with that too, depending on howyou define offence, if its aao to hit evaders, thats true, if its alpha-ability though, atrox shades are pretty nuts. are you suprised that im acknowledging where im wrong and not instantly attacking you yet? Well, im not going to, but saying strongest defense agains all but 3 profs is pushing it, what about advies with there defensive toolset including, but not limited to coon, heals, bio rej, and acro. doc heals, if considered as a defense is on par with ams/tms while ams/tms is running (as it should be), enfos have mongo/bio rej, have slightly above average evades, great nr, coon, rs (running away with your tail between your legs is some times the only way to victory), humongous hp, so over all i rate the enfos defense at only slightly below solds.

ran out of time and cant continue

also, im sorry for comparing solds to keepers i forgot their current state of pvp :/

Very calm and appropriate response thank you I was not intending any offense or demeaning myself, just pointing out that your comments could be taken the wrong way by players.

Now for the argument of adventurer defense, that again is the wrong term to apply. As far as "survival" goes, adventurers and doctors are miles ahead of soldiers. In fact fixers, MAs, Enforcers, NTs, well if you really analyze it many profs have far better survival than soldiers. However, as far as purely defensive tools (not survival tools) are concerned, a soldiers AMS is a defensive tool far superior to evade profession AAD, engineer spec blockers, and is miles ahead of cocoon.

Soldiers have the best defensive tool in game, but soldiers have one of the worst designed and implement survival toolsets I have ever seen an in MMO. You need runspeed, static evades, healing, nano resist, debuff removing tools, anything to actually survive in this game, and soldiers are given Reflects, High max health, and the healing ability of a tl5 MA. Soldiers are not the nerfest, you are just the nerfest in the area of AO that matters the most.

[heilt-do]

2. A soldier running into a group of 10 enemies and tanking them while alpha killing people is not a realistic scenario. All it takes is for 1 person to have "a heal" and then no alpha the soldier did would have killed anyone. All it takes is for 1 person to be trader or NT or engie to make the soldier die instantly. All it takes is 1 person to have root so that the soldier is unable to move while getting killed very fast, even through AMS. All it takes is for 1 person to have blind and the soldier wont be able to run anywhere very effectively. Everyone have roots and blinds btw. All it takes is for 1 shade or crat or MP to do stuns and the soldier is unable to do much of anything because soldiers can't resist that stuff. All it takes is for them to have an engie and the soldier does pretty much 0 damage. All it takes is for the targets to have enough defenses to make FA miss, which a lot of professions have.

Flawless victory i may say.

Perfectly put, soldiers CANT OUTRUN, ARE VERY VULNERABLE TO ROOTS/STUNS/DEBUFFS so why suggesting 1.5k RS debuff. Why are soldiers supposed not to run when their ONLY defense goes down ? EVERYONE AND EVERY PROFESSION IN THIS GAME DOES IT.

Wrangeline for sold professional :P (jk)

[genocyde21]

Anarchy online isnt balanced for AMS

[Manicmouse]

Anarchy online isnt balanced for AMS

Anarchy Online isn't balanced for AS
Anarchy Online isn't balanced for CH
Anarchy Online isn't balanced for Triples

Maybe all these imbalances bring some sort of balance to the game in a roundabout fashion

[Parranoid1]

yeah, i dont think this is such a good idea. i can see you dont like soldiers, but doing something like this just isnt fair, to have such a massive drawback from using wat is essentially their only defence (bar maybe HD.....but....thats not really a defence without AMS), is a bit much. they already have one of lowest RS around.

[Structure]

I never figured out why so many complain about soldiers.
Root, snare, disable ams in one of a bunch of ways, or if all else fails, simply RUN for like a minute. Sold has crappy RS.

I always hear the arguments, Nerf Sold! I can kill them easily and it's no problem, but I'm annoyed by part of the toolset!

Also comparing RI to something like Borrow reflect is flawed.

If I am AMSed and a trader runs in and BRs me unexpectedly, I can attempt to run with my massive runspeed, until I'm rooted. Obviously if I know there is a trader around I simply won't use AMS. It's not like if an Agent sees a Soldier in a BS they will stop using CH for the whole round.

If I come across an Agent, who I then RI, all he has to do is root me and run himself, until its worn off. Not to mention if he isn't retarded hell have realised in order for me to cast, I don't have AMS up, and at least mashed the O key in that time. (Not that it happens very often, a lot of Agents sort of just stand there)

The options on what can be done after said nanos differs wildly.

Also Wrangeline made some excellent points.


(For the record, I accept that RI is situationally overpowered, but not the game breaker some agents believe)

[Maxisolja]

(For the record, I accept that RI is situationally overpowered, but not the game breaker some agents believe)

RI is a stupid nano just as BR/GTH are

Agent's are most vulnerable to debuffs which many professions throw around like nothing, they really didn't deserve to have RI thrown at them.

The agent can root the soldier but in places like BS there just isn't places to run to wait out the duration, eventually some one will run across you and drop you.

As for comparing RI vs BR, BR is a lot more devastating to a soldier then RI is to an agent, not in the effect but in the availability of the debuff.

[Structure]

RI is a stupid nano just as BR/GTH are

Agent's are most vulnerable to debuffs which many professions throw around like nothing, they really didn't deserve to have RI thrown at them.

The agent can root the soldier but in places like BS there just isn't places to run to wait out the duration, eventually some one will run across you and drop you.

As for comparing RI vs BR, BR is a lot more devastating to a soldier then RI is to an agent, not in the effect but in the availability of the debuff.

Fair enough man, to be honest my sold is only 217 and far from top setup, so maybe I haven't experienced the extent to which it works.

So far, it's just let me kill agents around my level and lower that would usually get down to 20% hp and CH, multiple times until my AMS has run out. Or I'll chuck it on a 220 agent in a large battle to force a retreat.

I still maintain though that Agents are much better equipped to run and escape after being disabled in this manner.

[nums214]

Everyone in this post is /fail.
The brain surgeon who started the post mentions "whine whine whine WHOMPA" in multiple posts. This thread has no issue with AMS time/strength/etc.

Grow a brain, balls or whatever makes you brave enough not to find NEAR A WHOMPA.
Go fight soldiers on Battlestation, or a tower field.
This means you won't have to whine about them "running into a whompa."
Or are you that skeeered about dying that you also run to the whompa as well?

=o)

[Insane666]

Well, my initial argument isn't AGAINST ams. I can easily kill soldiers, but the second AMS drops what do they do? Hit the woompah maze for 2 minutes, and repeat.

Just a common annoyance, heaven forbid their target lasts their alpha so they spam ams.

thats not just soldiers, thats pretty much any1 whos defences just went off,,,
and adding a 1,5k rs debuff to ams on end of durtion? lol? really lol?
like we wouldnt already be one of the slowest or the literally slowest proffesion ingame,,,


and back to your argument of running to 100% zone after ams is down, look closer at adventures and fixers, or any prof with any kind of a active temporary defense tool
soldiers are just more visible, since soldiers defence last for exactly 1:20 and is down for whole 40sec leaving the soldier with close to 0 defence ( low reflect, wich hit of after a few sec, depending on luck, pretty much non existant evades+nr, no absorbs like some profs, no heals besides a few perks )

not even mentioneing the fact here, that soldiers main (only) defense tool is completely passed by one prof ( nt's reflect riipping nukes ) and is even a liability (!!!!1111) if another profs anywhere arround ( obviously trader )
show me a single other proffesion who can say that: my main (only) defensive tool can be a liability and i sometimes cant use it, becouse using it will mean 100% chance of defeat, plus it will make my foe close to immortal ( unless an friendly engy or nt is close ), wich results in my own side sending hate tells to me,,,

and didnt even mention the old sols nemezis, engy with his ripper auras, lol

[Hacre]

show me a single other proffesion who can say that

Ahem. One of the professions you're complaining about, NTs, don't just get all their defences screwed when a Trader is around, but all their offences too.

I wish I could still spit some decent damage out at other targets when a Trader has just hit me.

[Kinkstaah]

Ahem. One of the professions you're complaining about, NTs, don't just get all their defences screwed when a Trader is around, but all their offences too.

I wish I could still spit some decent damage out at other targets when a Trader has just hit me.

That isnt what he said though. He said name a class where putting up your defences can be a liability.

[Ayria]

That isnt what he said though. He said name a class where putting up your defences can be a liability.

His one paragraph talking about AMS being a liability is true, but then many people agree that Borrow Reflect should be looked at to at least giving Traders as much reflect as it gives Soliders instead of 100%. The rest of his post is the typical "whine whine Soldiers are nerfest because there's a few professions that totally bypass our defense".

[Parranoid1]

after a pretty long run in tl5, i recently decided to go back for some more tl7 pvp on my shade.

after reading these forums and seeing every1 say that solds are the slowest prof in game and thats a huge draw back... it got me thinking, in mass pvp, which alot of this stuff is based around. soldier all have runspeed buffs. Also in alot of battlestations they have runspeed buffs running.

Yes im aware that its low for a soldier selfed, but 90% of the soldiers i pvp have runspeed buffs andoften have capped RS like me. i had a few where there was 3-4 solds and they all could run at the same speed as me...

not saying their RS is fantastic or anything...but still its not that huge flaw in the defence if it requires 1 OB to nullify it as a defence flaw