Changes Log (current to 18.8.5)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'm starting to think you're just trolling, based on your language. You even quoted my response to someone else.
I've just posted numbers, linked to setups, hit mobs, and used DD gear.
If you're interested in contributing, please do so.

You're free to think whatever you like. But I am contributing: I'm calling out when numbers are biased to prove a point, and to counter that, Rockdizzle has gone to some effort to show "proper" DD, which imo, is far more reasonable (i.e. consistent with someone buffed up and pressing more than Q on a target half way through a parse).

If you want to see a troll, check this post:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...=1#post6206693

For what it's worth, on the Gan'Kar, 1 crit seems to match about 18 or 24 damage, for high AC and low AC targets respectively.

I'll have to fish around to find out how many attacks per minute on average add dmg affects.

I'm quite confident that 1% crit is worth less than 18 damage, but I could be mistaken. I will put together an add dmg vs crit comparison based on gankar with 2750 MS assuming agent gets a 4.7 damage multiplier, and using all damage procs and the perk setup you've listed. I don't have time to do it for dual wield kick pistol setup unfortunately.

[Rockdizzle]

Gankar Rifle at 2750 *MBS 3426 AR*
AS is not factored into calcs as its not always possible to AS every 11 secs

Crit = 2006 dmg
overall dmg gain per crit in 100 hits is 20.06 dmg (100% crit would make it 2006 dmg which is how crit average is calced for anyone who didn't know)
DPM from regs+fling for 1 crit is 772.31

add dmg will be calced for 1 dmg to make it easier on me, just times it by the amount of add dmg you are comparing crit with
38.5 hits per min from rifle = 38.5 DPM
proc 1 has 21% proc chance so 8 procs average = 8 DPM
proc 2 has 15% proc chance so 5-6 procs average = 5-6 DPM
proc perk has 75% proc chance but it's only up for 5 out of 7 mins so its calced to 53% average = 20.4 DPM
perks:
Shadow Bullet at 60 secs = 1 DPM
Pinpoint Strike at 50 secs = 1.2 DPM
Concussive Shot at 60 secs = 1 DPM
Snipe 1 at 30 secs = 2 DPM
Snipe 2 at 120 secs = .5 DPM
Death Strike at 90 secs = .66 DPM
Assassinate at 120 secs = .50 DPM
The Shot at 75 secs = .80 DPM
Night Killer at 240 secs = .25 DPM
Nano Feast at 65 secs = .92 DPM
Collapser at 65 secs = .92 DPM
Bot Confinement at 120 secs = .50 DPM
Implode at 120 secs = .50 DPM
Tranquilizer at 60 secs = 1 DPM

Total DPM for add dmg is 83.65

1 crit = 9.23 add dmg for Gankar rifle

If I made any mistakes correct me

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I calculate 1% crit = 9.34 add dmg according to my calcs (just posted in a different thread)...

post 1k AR damage adjustment for a 2750 MBS weapon for Agents is 4.82. 4.82+1 = 5.82 total multiplier.

5.82*350 = 2030

very close to what rockdizzle used.

[Rockdizzle]

3426 base with drains up
3576 with concentration for more AR
You hit Punching Bug for 5454 points of poison damage. Critical hit!
You hit Punching Bug for 3417 points of poison damage. min dmg

2037 crit dmg, AR is currently weird on test in that you need ALOT more AR to max dmg , 3576 AR is still short of max dmg.

Also happens with keeper so its not a profession specific problem.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

hmmm something is very screwy with my numbers.

Crit hits don't count add dmg twice do they?

hmm I wonder if I've misunderstood the post 1k AR multiplier.

1+4.8 * 350 = 2030 damage which is bang on. I wonder if the 4.8 multiplier is only for post 1k AR....

[Wakizaka]

5x13k AS my ass.

My level 200 agent regularly hits 18-19k AS's with proc damage attached.

Please explain how you're exceeding the hard cap.

[Rockdizzle]

Nah I can comfirm its a new test thing that's gonna require possible retesting of multipliers.

with Pride of the Xan
Test keep with 524 melee dmg and 3562 AR without sphere/insight You hit Guard for 5766 points of melee damage. Critical hit!, 3560 is around where dmg stops increasing.
Live keep with 611 melee dmg and 3117 AR without sphere/insight You hit Guard for 5222 points of melee damage.Critical hit!, AR did not increase with sphere/insight

[Rockdizzle]

Please explain how you're exceeding the hard cap.

He mean't with procs added also, still alittle high but makes sense if full dot proc is included

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ Waki

Proc damage.

Here's the original post on the matter:

1.5 AR over 1000
With the patch the preceeded Shadowlands by a few days, FunCom made some drastic changes to the workings of attackrating over 1000. These changes mean that attack rating over 1000 is less effective then sub-1000 AR and proffession specific. To complicate matters further, the proffession specific modifier is not static, it changes with the amount over 1000 too.

The mess is summed up into the following equation:

TotalDamageRange = Sub1000Equation + Post1000Equation + DamageAdd
Where:
Sub1000Equation is the one in section 1.2 without the AddDamage part.
Post1000Equation is:
DamageRange = (( 1 + ( (AR - 1000)/(400*ProffessionMultiplier*NonStaticModifier) * WeaponDamageRange ))

In total:
TotalDamageRange = ((1 + ( 1000/400) ) * WeaponDamageRange ) + (( 1 + ( (AR - 1000)/(400*ProffessionMultiplier*NonStaticModifier) * WeaponDamageRange )) + AddDamage

Yuck.
Roughly, testing has shown that the total efficieny of AR over 1000 changes from 1/3 for DD classes (Sold/MA/Shade/Agent) over 1/6 for medumDD (Trader fx) to 1/8 for casters (Doc, Engy, MP etc)

Example:
This means that 2500 AR for a soldier equals 1500 'normal AR' but 1187 for a engy. Booooh Sad


So, this is the equation:
Actual damage range = (( 1 + ( (AR - 1000)/(400*ProffessionMultiplier*NonStaticModifier) * WeaponDamageRange ))

But for min damage we can say (for 2750 MBS and 350 crit):
crit damage = (( 1 + ( (2750 - 1000)/(400*ProffessionMultiplier*NonStaticModifier) * (350) ))

And, assuming you're reached MBS (which is interesting because apparently you haven't rockdizzle?!) we can back calculate the value of "ProffessionMultiplier*NonStaticModifier"

So: say your crit = 2037

then, simplifying and making it easier to read, ( 1 + 1750/(400*PM*NSM)) * 350 =2037

Simplifying: ( 1 + 1750/(400*PM*NSM)) = 2037/350 = 5.82

Simplifying: 1750/(400*PM*NSM) = 5.82-1

Simplifying: 1750 =4.82*400*PM*NSM

And: PM*NSM = 1750/(4.82*400) = 0.907

So that sounds about right on the PM*NSM since Justinsane was calcing that for MP's earlier this week and complaining that MP's were around 0.7 which meant MP DD was lower given similar AR ratings as other profs.

It also means my estimates are bang on for the post AR multiplier but I've forgotten to add the 1+ for pre-1k multipler...

I'll fix my posts.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Nah I can comfirm its a new test thing that's gonna require possible retesting of multipliers.

with Pride of the Xan
Test keep with 524 melee dmg and 3562 AR without sphere/insight You hit Guard for 5766 points of melee damage. Critical hit!, 3560 is around where dmg stops increasing.
Live keep with 611 melee dmg and 3117 AR without sphere/insight You hit Guard for 5222 points of melee damage.Critical hit!, AR did not increase with sphere/insight

check your skill, not your AR please?

I think it might be max beneficial SKILL not max beneficial AR (I can't remember when that switch happened but it was a couple years ago... perhaps it's reverted on test?)

[Rockdizzle]

Both weapon skill and AAO affects crit dmg, If you log onto test I'll show you.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

i'm interested!

I'm at work and can't do it atm.

do you have an atrox toon you could log and test to see how much MR affects it? it might give you an upper end....

Well, hell actually, we should be able to assess what the grain is per point of AR gain (we can assume it's linear over a few points gain) but it won't tell us where it will stop.

If you can do MR+check your crit, and do a lower AR test, then we can establish (hopefully) two things:

1. the gain in damage per point of AO increase (linear relationship)
2. where it ends (assuming it ends and doesn't just keep going up even at MR levels)

[Rockdizzle]

Test Keep
Pride of the Xan
Damage: 441-558(444)

3427 AR
414 melee dmg
You hit Punching Bug for 5282 points of melee damage. Critical hit!

3427 AR + 9 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 5285 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +3 damage

3427 + 27 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 5291 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +9 damage

3427 + 121 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 5325 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +40 damage



3427 + sphere for 150 AAO
You hit Punching Bug for 5325 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +43 damage

3407 + sphere for 150 AAO
You hit Punching Bug for 5325 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +43 damage

3407 + 131 wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 5321 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +39 damage

3407 + 131 wrangle + 12 AR from SL ring
You hit Punching Bug for 5325 points of melee damage. Critical hit! +43 damage

3570 AR is the current cap for keeps and 3 points of AR = 1 dmg exact for pride

[McKnuckleSamwich]

3550 I think is max you mean.

that's bloody interesting.

[srompu]

Geez, I go do something else and people start calculating things.


Also, my numbers for the +damage.
On High AC bag with GK rifle I was crit 4507, regs 2625. Net benefit of a crit is +1882 damage. Assuming perfect crit stacking, 1% crit would be worth 18 damage.
On Low AC bag, I had crit 5332, regs varying 2477-3357 so average 2917. Net benefit of a crit 2415 damage. Again assuming perfect crit stacking, +24 damage.

Results may vary, of course, depending on the target AC. Now that I look at it too, the 2477 seems out of place. Maybe I had something running.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Geez, I go do something else and people start calculating things.


Also, my numbers for the +damage.
On High AC bag with GK rifle I was crit 4507, regs 2625. Net benefit of a crit is +1882 damage. Assuming perfect crit stacking, 1% crit would be worth 18 damage.
On Low AC bag, I had crit 5332, regs varying 2477-3357 so average 2917. Net benefit of a crit 2415 damage. Again assuming perfect crit stacking, +24 damage.

Results may vary, of course, depending on the target AC. Now that I look at it too, the 2477 seems out of place. Maybe I had something running.

You're messing up your crit vs add dmg estimations badly. Rockdizzle and I both calced that 1% crit was worth less than 10 add dmg and both calcs were done independently.

You're forgetting to add proc/perk damage.

Add damage doesn't only affect weapon damage. It also affects perks, procs and the first tick of DoT's.

[Saetos]

... and the first tick of DoT's.

A very minor point, but be careful with how you word this.

Damage is NEVER added to DOTs. The thing is, things like Piercing Mastery DOTs have a damage value that is exactly equal to the value of the DOT (Hit Health -102 .. -102, then Hit Health -102 .. -102 8 hits, 4.0 second delay as a rough example). It's that first -102 that's added and multiplied and whatnot, not the delayed damage portion.

This applies to Agent procs as well; they have a primer hit (the value of which is actually different than the DOT) and then the DOT immediately fires as it's read in the line. But that DOT never incorporates any modifiers.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

A very minor point, but be careful with how you word this.

Damage is NEVER added to DOTs. The thing is, things like Piercing Mastery DOTs have a damage value that is exactly equal to the value of the DOT (Hit Health -102 .. -102, then Hit Health -102 .. -102 8 hits, 4.0 second delay as a rough example). It's that first -102 that's added and multiplied and whatnot, not the delayed damage portion.

This applies to Agent procs as well; they have a primer hit (the value of which is actually different than the DOT) and then the DOT immediately fires as it's read in the line. But that DOT never incorporates any modifiers.

Thank you for the clarification. It's what I meant - and I am also aware that some dot's actually don't have the "primer" as you called it, and only consist of the "DoT" portion, in which case the add damage doesn't apply at all.

I didn't actually check if any of the dot's like grim reaper have a primer or not, but it will be negligible anyway compared to the perks/waves/trauma procs and obviously toxic shock which contribute a crap tonne of damage boosts.

[Rockdizzle]

heh ya 3550 woops

Agent
Gankar Rifle
Damage: 350-580(350)

3450 AR
680 poison dmg
You hit Punching Bug for 4697 points of poison damage. Critical hit!

3450 AR + 9 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4700 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +3 damage

3450 AR + 27 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4705 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +8 damage

3450 AR + 56 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4714 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +17 damage

3450 AR + 65 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4720 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +23 damage

3450 AR + 74 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4725 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +28 damage

3450 AR + 85 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4731 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +34 damage

3450 AR + 112 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4746 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +49 damage wtf? damage starts climbing

3450 AR + 131 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4757 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +60 damage 11 dmg for 19 points of AR jeez

3450 AR + 150 AR from concentration -300 damage
You hit Punching Bug for 4768 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +71 damage

3450 AR + concentration + 56 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4797 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +100 damage it keeps going lol

3450 AR + concentration + 99 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4809 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +112 damage

3450 AR + concentration + 106 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4810 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +113 damage hit the cap I think

3450 AR + concentration + 131 point wrangle
You hit Punching Bug for 4810 points of poison damage. Critical hit! +113 damage cap confirmed

cap for agent seems to be 3700 AR
Not sure the exact dmg to AR as it just starts going up more after 3.5k AR

[McKnuckleSamwich]

if you have time, can you post a non crit hit for keeper (with associated AR) and for agent?

It appears that the post 1k AR modifier is not even remotely... HOLD THE PHONE.

I think the !!!!!!!!!!?????!!!??!?!?!?!?! I think the 2750 MBS is for POST 1K AR!

can you test with another weapon with lower MBS? I think we've all been lead astray thinking that the 2650 or whatever was the MAx AR whereas it appears to be that it's actually 1k+ the MBS!

Holy schmoly

This actually has crazy implications for evaluating CC value for sub 3750 AR.

It also means that only soldiers and keepers can/should really be able to reach Max beneficial AR on most endgame weapons (and MA's actually with delirium)