Credit Black Holes

[Cratertina]

Give shops better phatz. Very simply, Imagine a half decent shop bought weapon?

[Gimpynoob]

Game design that encourages player interaction by making them sell/buy stuff between themselves instead of only dealing with NPCs is bad? Mkay... I'll just have to disagree

I very much support making AO more new-player friendly though by giving them better guidance: what are implants, how to get them, etc. I'm against making it more like single player game where you collect tokens to hand over to NPC to get your stuff (LE line is like that - but at least it encourages subscribing). That said, many of the somewhat usefull SL armors (smugler etc) could really use some changes in how to acquire them. And having something similar on RK (Miy gets close but the bonuses are kinda mixed) wouldnt hurt either.

This is simply ridiculous. One of the worst "cred farmer type" arguments. There is little interaction in a transaction. If you want player interaction you need to make them want to play together. You achieve this by making teaming desirable (better then making it necessary) not by allowing a few players to farm all of AO's content triple logged or in a two man team so that they can spam shopping channels for a 30 second interaction with 2 or 3 dry sentences.

I'm not saying that trading between players is bad. But there is a world of difference between doing a challenging, level adequate playfield and looting something that can be traded for something of similar value and spending your hours online farming dyna nanos, pearls or basic armor because in your noobish ignorance you rolled a crat instead of one of the high demand professions like keepers, MPs or agents. Amirite?



Oh and what use is there in knowing what is the best gear if you cannot get it?

[Utopian]

Game design that encourages player interaction by making them sell/buy stuff between themselves instead of only dealing with NPCs is bad? Mkay... I'll just have to disagree

I very much support making AO more new-player friendly though by giving them better guidance: what are implants, how to get them, etc. I'm against making it more like single player game where you collect tokens to hand over to NPC to get your stuff (LE line is like that - but at least it encourages subscribing). That said, many of the somewhat usefull SL armors (smugler etc) could really use some changes in how to acquire them. And having something similar on RK (Miy gets close but the bonuses are kinda mixed) wouldnt hurt either.

And I will just disagree with you.

With the popluation as it is, relying on people who farm to obtain items (because they will not allow others in the team as it dilutes their farming) is not a good system either. I would prefer a system that allows Funcom (not a points bot) to give rewards for doing the content and then turn in those "tokens" to obtain gear.

I think a balance between the two is needed to allow folks options. That would allow people - who pay for the game - to play as they like and not be forced into a model they don't prefer.

[Psikie]

And I will just disagree with you.

With the popluation as it is, relying on people who farm to obtain items (because they will not allow others in the team as it dilutes their farming) is not a good system either. I would prefer a system that allows Funcom (not a points bot) to give rewards for doing the content and then turn in those "tokens" to obtain gear.

I think a balance between the two is needed to allow folks options. That would allow people - who pay for the game - to play as they like and not be forced into a model they don't prefer.

Interesting idea...I think originally that was what Vet shop was for by providing Yalms in there. I would not be opposed to additional items being added there.

Although that wouldnt technically wouldnt be a credit hole.

[Utopian]

Interesting idea...I think originally that was what Vet shop was for by providing Yalms in there. I would not be opposed to additional items being added there.

Although that wouldnt technically wouldnt be a credit hole.

True, but I was responding to the person who likes player/player trades the way they are today. If the trades were a barter system or similar, then I think its a good thing. Simply forcing folks to buy lootrights is not my preference (and I say forcing since getting random teams is very difficult now)

Also - I did post somewhere, that I would love a huge credit sink for items. I would prefer to give my credits to FC for a BOC than the folks who wont let me join their raids because they are "just farming".

Selling lootrights the way it is today has ruined many playfields and the game in general - in my opinion.

Oh , and - that wasn't my idea, I think it was Jill's that posted the idea of a "token" system some months back. I liked it as a way to reward activity.

[Psikie]

I can see and understand a lot of posts on this subject. I think if there was some form of npc that takes credits for items it could be both negative and positive.

Negatively it could totally decimate teaming for many instances. Giving instant gratification and producing high level ebay noobs.

Positively it would crush the loot right selling market. Imagine if you would, Stoltz selling ql300 strong bots and WU for 50m each! TNH belts 100m, and zods loot for 25m.

It still wouldnt affect teamability though. Which I think is more of a problem. If more instances had a required prof like 12m with keepers I think that would be an interesting way to go. You can do it without a keeper- sub fixer/extra doc, but it is harder.

[Gorathon]

Negatively it could totally decimate teaming for many instances. Giving instant gratification and producing high level ebay noobs.

An NPC selling very expensive gear to noobs/ppl tired of content is worse than today how?

It still wouldnt affect teamability though. Which I think is more of a problem.

Which is also a different thread.

[Psikie]

An NPC selling very expensive gear to noobs/ppl tired of content is worse than today how?

Which is also a different thread.

Well I theorized the credit black holes are suggested because of inflation in the game. Going with that it may be assumed that with less credits in game prices on items would drop.

I am suggesting the price of items is simply a symptom of a larger problem that credit sinks really are not going to fix. Players would not need credits to buy lootrights if they are desirable or beneficial in some way for teaming in the loot dropping instances in the first place. You wouldn't need credits at all except to buy meds, SL nanos, and pay your city upkeep.

[Sunny-D]

the whole idea of a credit sink effecting top gear prices i think is a bit off target. Outrageous prices are perpetuated by a small group of players who have an astronomical amount of creds/sets of ai armor/other stuff and these people are not gonna be effected by the same sort of credit sinks that would be utilized by the majority of players. Putting a npc in who sells pande armor/ wu or whatever is only going to cut down on the number of people actually playing the instances.
Dont like the idea of paying 800m for a boc? Don't. Join a points bot or make some friends/get into an org that raids. This is an mmo so the expectation that you can get endgame gear w/o being social is kind of silly. I dont have much exp in other mmo's. . . can u get endgame gear in wow without a guild? I know this is getting kinda off topic but there used to be a time before instances where if u wanted pande loot u joined your sides raidbot and ground points for ever to even hope of getting a boc or top symbs etc. Having an option to buy this stuff, especially for vets who've done these raids dozens/hundreds of times is a godsend.

Back on topic, i dont think the inflation on ai bots is due to too much creds at this point, but there simply arent as many people doing ai raids, there arent as many people farming s10 (and getting boss spawn drops along the way). That coupled with the fact that most vets have 2-6 top geared toons these days thats a lot of demand for a short supply.

Oh and fc, fix the shop weapons so there usable and maybe people will actually buy them :P

[Gimpynoob]

Your argument is valid for a veteran player who can log an "useful" toon to do a playfield. Any new player will have no chance on doing most of the game content if his/her first toon is not one of the "good' professions. OTOH most people will team only with one or 2 friends and nobody else.


The large amount of credits in game is only a problem for FC because they are now competing with cred sellers for your RL bucks. For us players the real solution would be the game to become playable for all.

[Freor]

Just to clarify, my reply/disagreement was mainly for yesdrop stuff becoming "token buyable". Stuff like AI bots, Tara phats, Albtraum mems/bracers, etc. Not nodrops, in fact I quite agree the current loot-right selling is bit silly. Tbh I'd prefer most of the items becoming yesdrop and sellable on open market (GMI) instead of dedicated farm teams. Only the really top end phats staying Nodrop as they are (BoC, ACDC, DB3).

I have some experience on different MMOs, and from what I've seen games with working economy generally tend to do better than games that "feed people" with items via tokens etc. EVE and SWTOR for example being on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Like I said tho, new players do need some love. But it doesn't have to be hand feeding them with items/money (and then later pushing them off the cliff when facing reality, or changing the entire game to new model). Knowlege is one thing. Making some valuable enough items even a level 50 player can farm and sell for the "vets" is another. Just make daily quest or so, limits vets from farming everything themselves and make the items consumable to create constant need. Stuff like the old health/nano kits that worked even if team on fight (can still roll those afaik). Consumable grids like they sell for $$ (will come in handy with cities removed). Etc.

Bottom line, it's very possible to help newbies get into the game money-wise without changing the whole game. They just need guidance and opportunities to do so. If people are too lazy to help themselves there is only one person to blame.

[Lheann]

Here is my take.

VP can be bought in the item store for cash.
OFAB armor and weapons can be bought in the item store for cash.
Levels can be bought in the item store for cash.

Future bottom line matters more than anything else FC will make OFAB the defacto best items in game. This will see players buy VP and get OFAB. FC bottom line will look better. Same future FC will add the best non-OFAB content to the item store for big cash prices as well. The value of the credit will be worth dog doo doo after such changes. That is how FC will fix the credit problem. By making all the credit purchase items (player to player) and (player from shops) second tier items they will make the never ending grind for credits a past memory. Cash prices will be adjusted to maximize profit and yes lowering price can increase profit. Once they go pay to win profit will drive prices.

Anyone that thinks that FC's new management has not and is not looking at the Asian MMO model of everything is available for IRL money is crazy. Those MMO's are making good money and FC's new bottom line matters CEO strikes me as the kind of person that is going to drive all the games toward a make more money model with every patch.

Pay to Win is the future as long as the company is focused on whether the bottom line is red or black. And when it black the it is a matter how big is my bonus going to be. Yes folks, the future could look like this. Take AO which has X number of old players active each day. Take that AO gets Y number of new players each day. Give AO Z item for cash that makes the game easier but is consumable and generally will be purchased at least once daily.

Pure profit Per Week = (7X + 7Y) * CostOfZ

To use numbers
PPPW = ((7 *2000) + (7 * 50)) * 1.00USD
PPPW = (14000 + 350) * 1.00
PPPW = 14350 * 1.00
PPPW = 14350
PerYear = 14350 * 52
PerYear = 746200

That is $746200 a year from one item that would get daily purchases with a really small number of players playing the game each day. Ask yoursel,f will FC really fix the credit issue or just go this money making route?

I even have an example of such an item that I bet would get daily sales.
Full Heal Stim
180 second lock on use
no use requirements so all levels can use it.
only use on self
Returns the toon to full health
pack of 2 for $1.00.

Need a second item that would get same level of sales
Full Nano Stim
180 second lock on use
no use requirements so all levels can use it.
only use on self
Returns the toon to full nano
pack of 2 for $1.00.

If players complain they are game unbalancing at that price FC wins because people will still pay a higher price. What double or triple the cost. Two items = 1.49m a year at 1.00. So players think they are balance issue so we make it $2. and get 2.98m a year. Thanks players for lining our pockets.

So there is why I think FC has no plans to actually fix the in game economy of any of the games. It will be easier and more profit to move to a pay to win model. The old timers will complain and maybe quit. But the new more casual players with money to spend will spend and FC will profit. And truth be told, if I was the CEO and only cared about the bottom line, this would have already been the mandate from on high.

Don't think companies will do this? FC does partner with EA and you all should see what EA has done to Real Racing with the new version that is out for iPad/iPhone. Think the new CEO does not seek advice for other CEO's? Reality check they do such stuff. And if other companies are seeing acceptance of pay to win then how long before FC goes that route.

[Cratertina]

Well, atleast something will change. Last time AO gameplay changed was this time last year.

I dont get what is so hard about continually adjusting balance. Adjusting economy, droprates, etc. It should all be adjustable.

When I was a game developer we adjusted everything and often. Result was balance of factions and balance of economy.

So make it so funcom. Adjust droprates, tweak shop content. It will take 20-30 manhours and provide epic gameplay for hundreds of people every day.

[Rigister]

Well, i make about 300m / week killing absolutely nothing, farming absolutely nothing... Simply by sitting for about an hour or so in front of GMI... Dont care about who is paying and how much they are paying, but if i see it cheap i resell for profit... and believe me, works like a charm.

Appart of that, theres always the desperate dude selling a RBP for 800m to buy one piece of CSS/CC... luls...

GMI is there for the ones that know how to use it, and at the same time, im sinking credz in it.

[Cratertina]

Good job Rigister :P!

[zoneik]

Well, i make about 300m / week killing absolutely nothing, farming absolutely nothing... Simply by sitting for about an hour or so in front of GMI... Dont care about who is paying and how much they are paying, but if i see it cheap i resell for profit... and believe me, works like a charm.

Appart of that, theres always the desperate dude selling a RBP for 800m to buy one piece of CSS/CC... luls...

GMI is there for the ones that know how to use it, and at the same time, im sinking credz in it.

u actually make nothing your not generating credits nor are u adding any into the econamy ur doing exactly whats been said your just passing exsisting credits about

[dazza6561]

You're not supposed to run a city on your own. Attempting to do so is your choice, and if you do choose so, it's your problem how do you farm the credits needed for the upkeep by yourself, as opposed to an actual org putting it together much easier as a team effort.

Effective and unavoidable credit sinks are needed to keep game economies healthy and inflation at bay, especially in games where money and items are mostly just added to the economy but rarely ever removed by "natural" processes. And AO is one such game.

As MajorOutage wrote, the real solution would be to increase droprate of highly valuable items (and I dare say, remove the "innate" nodrop tag from most/all currently nodrop items, or at least rework the nodrop mechanism into a "nodrop on equip" system where such items become actually nodrop only when they are equipped the first time, but until then they are freely tradeable) so that the money that is already in game would move at a higher rate between players due to trading such items in higher quantities.

Surely, increasing the numbers of items would mean that the items drop dramatically in value. It would be a little bit like the wall street crash for some people. Imagine having 500 million worth of items and then, due to the increase in availability you suggest, the value plummets to below 100 mill. Not nice.

And then that would mean that the total in-game value of everything would also be massively reduced with an increase of rare items, and trade in general. I don't know if that would be good or bad?

[hokutonoken]

bring back the "sell/buy chat channels"...cause mail stuff...pay tax......put stuff in market..tax...but stuff from market ...tax.....soon log on AO...taxed....wait even longer to long on....NO CREDIT ON YOUR TOONS! get a ingame mail that you're "taxed'!

[drainbamage]

I dont have much exp in other mmo's. . . can u get endgame gear in wow without a guild?

I haven't played WoW since just before MoP came out, but from what I remember... the raid PUG system they introduced allows players who aren't in raiding guilds to see the content but the fights are easier and the gear isn't as good. Getting the best gear while it's still relevant pretty much requires that you be in a solid guild, since heroic mode raids will chew up bad guilds and bad players.

AO doesn't really have the population or balance to support that kind of hardcore raiding gameplay but I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more emphasis on player skill/team coordination and a bit less on who you know or what prof you are or how much creds you have.

[Ciex]

Remove all nodrop tags except tradeskilled items from raid zones (f.e. pande belt would be yesdrop but xan belts not so top gear couldnt be used and resold, same goes with alpha symbs, xan weapons etc.): GMI will flood with items and take 3% tax from every sale. Noobs will have easier time as they would be able to sell some items from lowbie content - like who of experienced players wouldnt buy stygian for 5 mln? People near endgame would have easier time finding teams as everyone would be interested in pvm raiding for loot to sell. No more lootrights selling - no need to. Nowadays people but nodrops anyway.