Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    @Ebag: the point I was making about us being the worst is completely valid. Klod is right, you are wrong in this case. Every example you broughtt up merely caught us up to every other prof. Which means we were caught up and mediocre until the next patch, when everyone except us would get new toys, effectively nerfing us from middle of the pack back down to the bottom. Some people might remember a time when crat and traders were at the bottom with us.

    We haven't been the worst prof, but we've always been in the bottom bracket or brought up to the middle bracket, seemingly as an afterthought. And for what its worth, if fc is balancing for pve...they're not doing too good of a job, considering not one of us can come up with a good reason for an MP to be brought along in a tl7 team.
    I'm not really disagreeing with the point you're making (that MP's could use love), merely the way you're making it ("ZOMG WE BE THE WORSTEST EVAH!").

    Even your statement above isn't really true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Every example you broughtt up merely caught us up to every other prof. Which means we were caught up and mediocre
    Pets were heavily nerfed shortly after SL release. Why? Because they were smacking down pretty much everyone. For a short period of time we weren't "mediocre." Heck, I'm half convinced that for years afterwards the only reason the number of MP's were as high as they were was because MP's were very much "flavor of the month."

    Tigress/SS wasn't as extreme as that, but really wasn't all that different.

    Your statements above suggest that MP's suck, and everyone else is on a level playing field. That's quite obviously not true, nor is it even possible to be true. Profs wax and wane depending on the patch, and some profs are simply going to be better suited to certain things than others.

    As others have pointed out, both yourself and Klod are making this discussion very flat (we suck, everyone else is uber!) when the truth is that it's far more complex than that. People tend to paint with broad brushes, and are quick to ignore anything that might suggest that what they believe isn't true.

    The fact remains that AO PvP will never be balanced. If you want something that's perfectly balanced, there's always rock, paper, scissors. Or maybe FC should create a mini-PvP zone where everyone is only allowed in as Soli Advies (and only with the exact same gear/perks/etc). Since neither of those is going to happen, you just have to accept that yes, we won't ever be king of PvP (or at least not for long), but that doesn't mean we can't have a place in it.
    Last edited by Ebag333; Jul 19th, 2011 at 23:34:51.

  2. #742
    So... Still doesn't change the fact that we currently SUCK the most, fo' real. We flat out, suck. Period.

    Maybe docs really didn't reveal much, but they most certainly did reveal some silly mechanics, that no other profession will suffer from (f.ex. immunity system - others use mostly cooldown, or only high nano cost, to suppress (attention, this doesn't prevent it, it just suppresses it) spamming).
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    So... Still doesn't change the fact that we currently SUCK the most, fo' real. We flat out, suck. Period.

    Maybe docs really didn't reveal much, but they most certainly did reveal some silly mechanics, that no other profession will suffer from (f.ex. immunity system - others use mostly cooldown, or only high nano cost, to suppress (attention, this doesn't prevent it, it just suppresses it) spamming).
    How active are you these days Klod? Last I checked your MP was sadly out of date. Happens to the best of us, I suppose.

    Anyway, claiming we "suck" doesn't really help any. It's not objective, it's not something you can measure, and it's not something that compares us in any meaningful fashion.

    So far lainbr's list is the most useful post I've seen in the last half of this thread. You might not agree with it all, but it seems fairly reasonable to me. But that still only addresses a fairly small portion of the game, solo PvP.

    Believe it or not, there's more than just an epeen score.

    Regardless, all I've seen you post is along the vein of "we suck" and "you're wrong." Not really particularly helpful, but I guess that's someone who's trolling wouldn't actually try and contribute in a meaningful fashion, eh?


    Re: Lockouts....I've never been a fan of lockouts. Pretty sure I've stated that pretty clearly more than once.

    I'd rather see something done that prevents us from spamming, but without the limit of the lockout on the nano itself. Like perhaps landing a nano prevents you from landing the same/similar nanos on that particular player (but you can switch targets without difficulty). The way the lockouts are designed basically hurts our ability to debuff multiple targets at once...something I very much do not like.

  4. #744
    The moderators are going to be keeping a very close eye on this forum from here on out. We are not planning to allow this to turn into the same sort of flame-infested cesspool it has been in prior years. Start practicing discussing the issues instead of insulting each other, because we don't want to have to start swinging the ban-hammers in here, but we certainly will if need be.
    Coordinator Anarrina
    Public Forums Moderation Team Lead
    Community Relations Department

    Advisors of Rubi-Ka

    Forum Social Guidelines // Social Events with ARK // Rubi-Ka Marriage Registry // ARK Tours // Join ARK!

    A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one. -- GRRM

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    The way the lockouts are designed basically hurts our ability to debuff multiple targets at once...something I very much do not like.
    I like your idea too, and as much as I like AOE's.. only certain attack nanos will benefit us as AOE's.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  6. #746
    Ebag, I'm not saying everyone else is uber...except for the obvious bit, where compared to us they are. Like I was saying earlier about us being in the bottom bracket. I remember seeing something a few years ago, placing profs into 3 brackets based on their power. Mps have either been in the bottom bracket, or as you pointed out, we were higher and were nerfed. I know pets were super powerful for a month or two. Good way to make up for launch, when our pets couldn't kill an equal level guard imo (this was demonstrated on black sunday, if you aren't sure what I mean, then ask. I'd prefer someone else tell the story, editing posts on my phone is simply dreadful.) But being good for a couple months out of 10 years? You've got to admit that's a bad track record for our profession. Contrary to popular belief, both klod and I can be reasonable (this is aimed at both bubba and ana). But we've already tried that tactic. It hasn't worked for a decade. A decade. I can't stress that enough. Some of us have been playing this game for longer than a good deal of children have been alive. Personally, that's why I take breaks, let the magic come back and see how a different game handles things, then come back refreshed.

    I'd be happy to give means & co ideas for mp nanos and perks and such...but face it, almost none of our ideas (many of which were absolutely brilliant) have even been given a "that's cool sounding but we couldn't code it in to this antique monstrosity"

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Like I was saying earlier about us being in the bottom bracket. I remember seeing something a few years ago, placing profs into 3 brackets based on their power. Mps have either been in the bottom bracket, or as you pointed out, we were higher and were nerfed.
    See, that's a fairly reasonable statement. Saying "zomg we're the nerfest and always have been!" isn't really. There are profs that were worse than us for nearly as long (Traders in particular had a rough time of it, unwanted in PvP or PvM for many years).


    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I'd be happy to give means & co ideas for mp nanos and perks and such...but face it, almost none of our ideas (many of which were absolutely brilliant) have even been given a "that's cool sounding but we couldn't code it in to this antique monstrosity"
    Looking through the list, I actually see a lot of changes that were requested by players.

    Most of the creation weapon changes have been requested.

    Most of the pet changes have been requested, or are similar to requests that have been made.

    Special effect and nano damage nukes have been begged for.

    New evade buffs were requested (mostly by the PvP crowd, honestly evade buffs never made sense for MP's to me).

    Damage to Pet especially were requested.


    Anyway, the majority of the changes that I'm seeing were asked for. And many of them were told (at least initially) that "it's not possible" (Damage to Pet comes to mind).

    Have all the requests been granted? Of course not (no double tigress!) but it's obvious looking through the list that whoever built it went through many of the old MP request threads. I see some items in there that go back to Xtremtech's days, which is really digging things up.

    Now maybe your specific ideas weren't implemented...but that doesn't mean that requests made by various MP's over the years weren't chosen.

  8. #748
    Some ideas were taken and used, I'm not arguing that they weren't. What I am arguing is that this community has given great suggestions, with completely reasonable numbers...but the suggestions that were taken are also being nerfed. Frankly, I look at the changes planned and see us being worse off than we are now, with other profs getting amazing changes (nt comes to mind with nano weaving).

    And yes, other profs were terrible too (trader, as you said, crats, nts) but you can't deny those other profs have also been turned around and now they all do quite well. I think we can all agree that mps weren't always the worst, but we have been the single prof most consistently towards the bottom of the foods chain, as it were.

  9. #749
    don't forget every other prof is being nerfed. Thank god.

    Power creep, is a serious issue, and, it takes a lot of balls to roll back power (props to Means and crew for this), even if it makes them a little bit unpopular with some close minded individuals.

  10. #750
    Ugh, nobody calced out how much damage you can lay down on an unsuspecting sod with nukes alone (and Focused running) in 5s yet?

    I will be amazed if Trance makes it through the next phase of rebalancing, honestly. I was expecting nuke damage in the 2-4k range, not 4-8k and a 8k and 6k besides.

  11. #751
    I'd be shocked if focused makes it through unscathed. It's an alpha unto itself right now (did the exact calcs back when the doc came out, but can't find them now - it would have killed a lot of profs though). Drop the nano-damage modifier a bit though on that perk action and IMHO the rest of the line still looks perfectly fine. The issue, as you pointed out, is the nuke DPS is twice what most of us were expecting. So halve the nano-damage modifier on focused and we're good?

    On a broader point, I think a lot of focus in this thread has been on what we've lost (SS, SoZ, NSD, 100% uptime damage debuffs, CoC) and not much on what we've gained. We've got real nuke damage, real secondary healer (roughly four times what we've got now for creation MPs assuming perk healing remains close to the last perk docs) healing, almost doc-level pet healing, static 20% DtP, a new endgame pet, improved pet defenses across the board (including mezz and heal pet being brought up to attack pet toughness levels), an S10 SL pet, Pet tanking tools (aggressiveness modifier and taunt proc) and an incoming DtP perkline. That's a whole bunch of stuff.

    I understand that the playstyle isn't what, well, anyone that I know of was planning on
    (we're MPs - we like our debuffs). But objectively, I think we'll be more effective in:

    Solo PvM (due to being able to use the attack pet tanks and actually heal the attack pet combined with better DPM from the nukes).

    Team PvM (better DPS, better support healing, powerful DD debuffs up 1/3 the time that don't over-write crat init debuffs, team nano-regeneration actually useful outweighs being uber where NSD works and unwanted where it doesn't).

    Mass PvP (less sure on this one, but NSD up 7 seconds is still enough to drop a called Doc I'd think, and our damage debuffs are gonna be murder on ranged alpha attempts if timed correctly).

    Duels, I'm guessing we might not be quite as good as the best SoZ MPs are now. But 3/4 isn't that terrible.

    Please don't take this to mean that I love the nano-document - Pistol MPs need help, we need better PvM debuffs, the creation bow attack times are horrible - but I do think a group pessimism has set in largely because of the last several years of gimpness. It isn't all bad.

  12. #752
    Well. In current state (aka, live server), MPs sux in pvp, simple and plain. In pvm, we can solo some stuff (same mobs shades afk solo) and do well DD; our healling is crap and or nanoheal is usually unseen. Flat and plain, we sux.

    In current released nanodocs, MPs will rock in pvp. YES WE WILL BE COOL IN PVP! If FC really slow down perks, we can survive well with healpet, DtP and DD debuff (which will work like Special block). But then, in pvm, we will sux hard. Our debuffs was designed to pvp, nobody will use a 7s debuff in pvm, and with immunity system attached its become laughable. Our DD will drop overall, since Tigress and Pistol setups gone (and if somebody is gonna saying these setups are not gone, try convince FC to dont take away AS from us or give some support to Pistol MPs. Those two changes are already set in stone as Kintaii already said somewhere in those 38 pages and made us all rage) and creation weaps DD is really crap (and ever more crap compared with new NT cyberdecks), also we will be unable to spam nuke due massive overhelming ammount of nano required. I did raw calcs with nuking only and a NM MP full ip nanopool capped nanocost could keep nuking for one minute. Now gl try reffiling 22k nano w/o first aid (like MPs have ip to raise it) in middle of a big long raid.

    Was already sugested to devs make our debuffs like everybody else debuff, with a pvp and a pvm version, but seems like they are not willing to do so, nor remove immunity system in pvm.

    It is also very... annoying when we MPs knows that our debuffs was nerfed/deleted because of CRATS DEBUFFS!!!! Because "debuffs" tends to make mobs stats go negative. For the God sake, I'll never accept this kind of excuse as a reasonable reason to nerf our debuffs in pvm.

    I'm not ever gonna start talking about Unmakes/Dominates deletion. Seriously, one of the few debuffs that the MP player need to be smart to make work got deleted?! Reduce duration? OK, 4min is really tooo long. Put immunity system on then? OK, they are only used in pvp anyway. BUT COMPLETELY DELETE THEN? Hell...
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    BUT COMPLETELY DELETE THEN? Hell...
    They were not deleted, so calm down. They were condensed down with special effect nukes, to provide less need for spamming. The debuff on the document shows -300, which is more then MIMQ and a composite dominate thrown in together. Even this may change in the future, but all in all, according to information given (and not assumed) they got re-purposed and overhauled.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Jul 20th, 2011 at 16:33:49.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    They were not deleted, so calm down. They were condensed down with special effect nukes, to provide less need for spamming. The debuff on the document shows -300, which is more then MIMQ and a composite dominate thrown in together. Even this may change in the future, but all in all, according to information given (and not assumed) they got re-purposed and overhauled.
    We got new nukes. MIMQ still debufs 150.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  15. #755
    Theres 2 groups here, Ob'd shield users saying how great our defense is with 2 agents in sneak to back them up when they cant kill anything, and bow users

    Still, we all need people to cap eh guys
    Still here

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    We got new nukes. MIMQ still debufs 150.
    at tl4 when you first get it, its balanced.

    at tl7, not so much. hence the extension.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  17. #757
    lianbr: that list u made about mp vs all profs is pretty cool and i agree most of them. And yea, i pretty like this doc, mostly from pvp aspect.

    JustinSane4: i totally agree. We will be much better at all parts of the game.

    I think the reason why FC dont wanna support pistol mps is that many other profs using pistols (doc, adv, crat, engi) and they want to make mp special (bow, 1-2hb).

    Also you forget something VERY VERY IMPORTANT: now most of our nanos has insane recharge time. SS, CoC, NSD, ENSD that we use most of the time. And with the new doc these recharges gets removed and i think thats 1 of the biggest love we could get. (Right now you have to choose pretty carefully which nano you gonna use coz that blocks you for a looong time from everything else. )

    What i realy miss is more nanohealing ability. NTs were best already, and now they get more love and imo they dont need. Tho based on perk doc we will be much better, but that would bring us to the same lvl as current NTs stands now. Making NTs nanoheal twice better is pretty ****ty imo. As they will have regular hits now (that wont cost nano, but tell me if im wrong) why they need more nano? Nuking will be their 2nd wep after rebalance.

    Tho for mps i like the idea of having high nanocost on nukes, we cant spam it for too long but its fine. 4-8k nuke.. when i saw that i thought im dreaming..

    Other pet idea: can we get a hp transfer nano? That takes away every pets 45% hp, and transfers back to mp 15% hp of the mp / every pet. So if u have only 2 pets alive you get only 30% of your hp. 5-10 mins cooldown on this nano would be fine. Ofc with new healpet and evade love we wont need this nano, but if fc wanna nerf something, we still has this option to get back some healing power.
    Last edited by Tutyimutyi; Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:19:51.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post

    Tho for mps i like the idea of having high nanocost on nukes, we cant spam it for too long but its fine. 4-8k nuke.. when i saw that i thought im dreaming..
    .
    That wont be pvp damage. It'll be the lowest damage on that nuke minus reflect %'s.
    So, don't dream too hard. Its the debuffs I have a feeling, that were meant to be a bit more devastating - even if they last about a tenth of a second.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

  19. #759
    Where do you leave dear Bubba? 4k dmg + nanodmg modifier. I may be wrong, but i counted something like 25-30% static from new perk doc. So that means nearly 5k nuke. Then for pvp it will be around 2,5k without reflect, 1,8k with rrfe. Every 4sec? And you say its not pvp dmg? Ofc it will be very cool in pvm too.
    Even current crat nuke is very nice in pvp, and that has 2,5k base dmg.. so this will be very cool.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Where do you leave dear Bubba? 4k dmg + nanodmg modifier. I may be wrong, but i counted something like 25-30% static from new perk doc. So that means nearly 5k nuke. Then for pvp it will be around 2,5k without reflect, 1,8k with rrfe. Every 4sec? And you say its not pvp dmg? Ofc it will be very cool in pvm too.
    Even current crat nuke is very nice in pvp, and that has 2,5k base dmg.. so this will be very cool.
    I suppose I am a victim of the nanodoc/perk doc mentality like everyone else. I forgot that out of all the documentation, the devs have already stated its going to be quite a bit more radical then it was before, so I can only assume that the nanodamage modifier is going to go up. That being said, with all the personal healing and reflect changes coming, that final theoretical ratio of PVP damage effectiveness might really not differ much.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
    President of Steadfast

    And way too many alts...

Page 38 of 45 FirstFirst ... 192021222324252627282930313233343536373839404142434445 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •