Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[SoapTarder]

Sorry that I sort of repeat myself here, but I can't stop worrying about it, and don't understand nobody else is complaining about it... :
I don't get how you guys even consider making a nano that gives a reason to not team up...

Do you really think it will not be used as reason to avoid teaming?

would probably be better to just have a 2-3m aoe effect on all skill drains. this would catch dual loggers mostly who have their pocket doc follow them around, but it would also allow for 1 or 2 drains in pvm if needed instead of draining nanopool entirely to please raid leader who for some reason believes it will make a massive difference (thinking post balance, without -crit on drains), and wouldn't be overpowered enough in pvp to make anyone but those that put teammates on /follow to QQ.

you are right about it causing people to not want to team. I know if i was in BS (on my trader even) and i saw a trader come around the bend, my first reaction would be to spam the leave button on the team window to avoid inevitable drains, and try to drain other trader first. But, thats me reacting to a 3:30 duration drain. with a 15 second duration drain it might be bearable, and not even warrant leaving the team, because its not spam-able. if however, the duration was 30-45 seconds, it would warrant leaving the team for sure if a trader was lurking around.

[Saetos]

until then I will keep assuming until its confirmed one way or the other that skill drains can still be cast on self (or I get a dunce cap for my avatar, ill take either at this point as like for some others, there exists some confusion for some things in the trader doc).

Why I said "drains" instead of just "Hagglers" in the Haggler portion is that, yes, we will be unable to cast drains on ourselves.

[SoapTarder]

Why I said "drains" instead of just "Hagglers" in the Haggler portion is that, yes, we will be unable to cast drains on ourselves.

gotcha. just wanted to be really sure about it. thanks for clearing that up.

[Racatti]

Sorry that I sort of repeat myself here, but I can't stop worrying about it, and don't understand nobody else is complaining about it... :
I don't get how you guys even consider making a nano that gives a reason to not team up...

Do you really think it will not be used as reason to avoid teaming?

That new feature is my only last hope at trader remaining the most annoying prof in the future as well

[Edta]

That new feature is my only last hope at trader remaining the most annoying prof in the future as well

Another way to look at it is: the only way it will not prevent people from teaming (which would be bad) is by making drains relative useless ?

[Shareida]

Another way to look at it is: the only way it will not prevent people from teaming (which would be bad) is by making drains relative useless ?

Or making people unable to perform halfway decent without a team.

[Kuegen]

I love that we have a better incentive to cast AC debuffs. It will be a lot of fun having to cast a lot of our nanos in one fight. health plunder? 5k nuke? We will do decent damage now?

But seriously the skill drains.... they dont need to be changed for pvm at all, if anything they could be improved a bit. 15 sec duration? might as well get rid of the debuff altogether (seeing as we arent getting debuffed for wrangle and such anyway). I feel that at lower levels, we should be allowed to ladder our drains on mobs and have them recieve the original debuff. If i can cast nanite enhanced drains at level 80 on a level 100 mortiig, that tiig should be debuffed with them, not divest major or whatever it was.

My trader isnt high enough for those weird pets yet, but i think what might be more preferable is some kind of drain pet? like a PA or something haha. It is friendly but you can cast hostile nanos on. Doesnt fight or anything (and doesnt grab agg), just there so you can drain if theres no mobs around. Give it a 100% reflect so you can health plunder it too, therefore you could effectively heal yourself when theres no mobs around.

It would be very nice to see the charm line be usable now. I would like to see it as the like the crat short charm. So the "downside" would be that we constantly recharm, rather than become worthless.

The wrangles seemed to have lost their style from an RP perspective, its just an odd change. Id rather keep wrangling myself before wrangling others so i only lose 9 points or whatever.

Anyways, as with the other docs I read im excited for these changes, the skill drains will be hard to work out, but im sure you guys will listen to the players on this for pvm.

[Phare2]

bla bla bla :P

Forum maded 2008-2009 started discus 11.2009 still no test`s or something and everyone is laughing "haha trader dead inc." lol :P

[rayje-defunct]

not sure if anything like this has been mentioned, but let me first say that i have a few traders i play for pvp, one of which i occasionally use in pvm. i share the same complaints that every other trader player does here, while i still see the side of those who are sick of being bent over by them in pvp.

my suggestion for skill drains was simply that instead of lvl locking them (since that would mean every trader in game would have to be stripped and reset since everything they twink is based on them) that you simply change how they work.

ex: instead of them draining more than they buff, swap the effects around and make them drain say like 30% from the target as they buff- the buff amount stays the same (doesnt change fundamentals of current equipment) and then increase the amount of AAO that is drained in pvm (in addition to more evade buffs being added into QU line accross diff lvls, making trader still solid for pvming)

and then also make the duration scale as the ql goes up, but instead of it being more make the duration less as the drains go higher (since higher lvls can afford to recast them more often w/o crippling their nano pool) capping at a max of something like 1 minute, 30 seconds.

these changes i believe would help to balance trader functionality in pvp while not destroying it in pvm.

and as a mandatory vote: no NA cost hike! and keep shutdown skills!!! (its the only thing trader really has going to finish an enemy in tough situations)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The trader drains are messed up in the current document.

What needs to be balanced is this:

The trader must be able to drain high AR opponents to get to "even odds" that means: that as soon as divest lands, the trader is capable of being unperkable with a reasonable setup vs offensive opponents.

At 150, for example, a trader maxes out at about 400 AAD and 1200ish evades without going into a retarded amount of detail. most AR profs will be around 1700-1800 AR, with enforcers going a bit higher with procs up.

So, a trader must be able to land divest in order to maintain unperkability for long enough to build up his defensive/offensive nanos and other drains. THEN he must heal up the damage that was done while divest was landing.

The way this current doc looks, theres two major shortfalls:

1. the drain doesn't last long enough
2. the drain doesn't drain enough to become unperkable ater only divest....


Now, theres two ways to fix it, but, we only need one or the other, but not both...

So, I figure, EITHER: length the debuff to at LEAST 30 seconds (perfereably 40 seconds to coincide with DOF/limber), or increase the amount drained... we're talking about -400 AR on current divest at 150, vs -170 in current documents.

IMO, -170 is nothing... thats enough to pop divest and get hammered into next week by 2 AI perks, 1 normal and a burst... add a FA/AS to that, and we're insta-poxed.

it's gotta be at least 200, but 250 would be better. At 150 people are twinked up pretty well, and, -170 AR is just not enough to be anything to bat an eye at. no prof setup properly at 150 will even notice that... hell it's not even as effective as limber, and thats really really pathetic. add to that itonly lasts 15 second? come on, traders goign to be useless in any 1-1 situation after this.

[Nanotehnpoir]

The trader drains are messed up in the current document.

What needs to be balanced is this:

The trader must be able to drain high AR opponents to get to "even odds" that means: that as soon as divest lands, the trader is capable of being unperkable with a reasonable setup vs offensive opponents.

At 150, for example, a trader maxes out at about 400 AAD and 1200ish evades without going into a retarded amount of detail. most AR profs will be around 1700-1800 AR, with enforcers going a bit higher with procs up.

So, a trader must be able to land divest in order to maintain unperkability for long enough to build up his defensive/offensive nanos and other drains. THEN he must heal up the damage that was done while divest was landing.

The way this current doc looks, theres two major shortfalls:

1. the drain doesn't last long enough
2. the drain doesn't drain enough to become unperkable ater only divest....


Now, theres two ways to fix it, but, we only need one or the other, but not both...

So, I figure, EITHER: length the debuff to at LEAST 30 seconds (perfereably 40 seconds to coincide with DOF/limber), or increase the amount drained... we're talking about -400 AR on current divest at 150, vs -170 in current documents.

IMO, -170 is nothing... thats enough to pop divest and get hammered into next week by 2 AI perks, 1 normal and a burst... add a FA/AS to that, and we're insta-poxed.

it's gotta be at least 200, but 250 would be better. At 150 people are twinked up pretty well, and, -170 AR is just not enough to be anything to bat an eye at. no prof setup properly at 150 will even notice that... hell it's not even as effective as limber, and thats really really pathetic. add to that itonly lasts 15 second? come on, traders goign to be useless in any 1-1 situation after this.

There are a lot of changes happening, and I completely agree with you that the drains should and need to last longer - this has been mentioned and things are always being modified. A lot of other changes are taking place, so all of this may not seem as bad as it is. Also to mention, it seems like Traders, especially at lower levels, shouldn't be able to make professions obsolete with one button... again, things are getting changed all over and whether we need drains "as powerful" may not be the case.

And also another reminder, the game isn't always balanced to be a 1-1 case.. of course, I don't want Traders to become some strange, weak, "team-only" profession.. but just in-case you weren't aware... the game, as far as I've seen, has never been balanced on a 1 vs 1 case.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Understood, but, any one on one situation is comparable to soloing PVM content, in the most rudimentary form, imagine a trader attempting to do an RK mission, or, the scheol quest, for example, where being able to make kills and survive is imperative for proper gameplay.

I'll tell you, that my trader was in very nice PVM gear for scheol quest, at 150, and was getting smacked around a little bit, but, I can tell you with 100% certainty, that, with the current drain length, nano cost, and amount drained, that, EVEN in exceptionaly strong gear, I'd get my ass handed to me doing the scheol quest, and I'm not talkign about cata's or greek mofo's, I'm talking about draining those demony dudes and trying to mezz them before getting stomped.

Now, you take a PVM experienced trader, and stick em in a 1-1 PVP experience, ramp up the gear significantly, and, in general, the traders toolset functions almost EXACTLY the same way:

1. lower the AR/kill power of your most dangerous opponent to a point that the damage taken won't kill you
2. heal up
3. attempt to land disabling nanos (with higher checks, such as plunder)
4. if plunder lands it's then a matter of pathetic DD vs CC tools, natural healing, perk healing, first aid, battle prepped stims, or waiting till a friend shows up to help either of you
5. drain nano to recover nano
6. resort to nuke/heals to slowly kill your opponent

I'll wager that 80% of encounters follow these 6 steps, in PVM, this is your bible. in PVP, if you follow these steps, you'll have a 50% chance to win if you don't take too much damage before divest lands. nano Range+LOS help.. but, if it's another trader, NT or doctor you have to adjust the steps.

the point is, though, that you can't change these steps. Theres no OTHER defence in the trader toolset that allows survival. Looking at the current nano doc, traders will need to land BOTH divest (note the 100% check) and Plunder (same at 150%) in order to acheive the level of defence currently afforded by the divest in game now.

Given that we can really only land plunder on about 30% of profs within a time span that allows survival given the long recharge on drains, we're looking like alphafood for almost every prof except doctors which is bullsh*t.

There is a fundamental difference between traders current toolset and the toolset that is found in the most recent nano doc:

CURRENTLY: Traders are extremely defensive against priority targets: We can protect our TEAM from one high priority opponent by disabling HIM for the duration of a fight.

PLANNED CHANGE: Traders are weakly offensive against poorly equipped teams for short periods: We can drain an entire team for barely enough AR to make a difference for 15 seconds.

Note the difference, and this is not biased. The trader drains the entire team for a small amount, resulting in ACUTE and EXTREME PVP aggro. However, since the trader cannot disable an offensive opponent, he is going to be creamed, fast. Whereas, currently, we can choose the prof/toon who is the biggest threat and disable him first.

While subtle, this difference is extremely important, both in PVP and PVM. In PVM, traders have capability to mezz, thus choosing their fights carefully, draining hard on one opponent and tanking his remaining capability. In PVP, it's no different. But, By making the drains area/team, the trader loses the disabling capability. The trader is, by his toolset, REQUIRED to disable and tank, and choosing his battles carefully. The current planned nano changes completely remove this aspect of the toolset, and, FORCE the trader into an mass divest+run+root style fight, which is garbage. Root+run rarely works in PVM, and, in PVP it's only effective vs 1 or 2 opponents, and NEVER in a team vs team situation.

THUS: while the current nano planned changes emphasize a traders strength in TEAM vs TEAM mechanics, the trader, will be unable to function in a TEAM vs TEAM environment due to lack of defence and, FURTHERMORE, in PVM will be ruined.

So, my suggestion is to offer two drain types to traders: 1: new and old style divest (area/team divest, and targetted HARD drain divest), and 2. area/team plunder

So this would change the way traders could function: if they needed to disable one opponent, they could, and, they could also drain team/area they also could.

[Nanotehnpoir]

Note the difference, and this is not biased. The trader drains the entire team for a small amount, resulting in ACUTE and EXTREME PVP aggro. However, since the trader cannot disable an offensive opponent, he is going to be creamed, fast. Whereas, currently, we can choose the prof/toon who is the biggest threat and disable him first.

While subtle, this difference is extremely important, both in PVP and PVM. In PVM, traders have capability to mezz, thus choosing their fights carefully, draining hard on one opponent and tanking his remaining capability. In PVP, it's no different. But, By making the drains area/team, the trader loses the disabling capability. The trader is, by his toolset, REQUIRED to disable and tank, and choosing his battles carefully. The current planned nano changes completely remove this aspect of the toolset, and, FORCE the trader into an mass divest+run+root style fight, which is garbage. Root+run rarely works in PVM, and, in PVP it's only effective vs 1 or 2 opponents, and NEVER in a team vs team situation.

THUS: while the current nano planned changes emphasize a traders strength in TEAM vs TEAM mechanics, the trader, will be unable to function in a TEAM vs TEAM environment due to lack of defence and, FURTHERMORE, in PVM will be ruined.

So, my suggestion is to offer two drain types to traders: 1: new and old style divest (area/team divest, and targetted HARD drain divest), and 2. area/team plunder

So this would change the way traders could function: if they needed to disable one opponent, they could, and, they could also drain team/area they also could.

I completely understand what your saying.. Traders are very much so in a position to either A) Disable someone or B) Get killed.. (due to lack of much else going on in our defensive.. or even offensive arsenal).

I, like you, don't want Traders to be just an annoying mosquito.. but an annoying mosquito carrying debilitating diseases.

[Lasteclipse]

Bump.. Please please rethink this FC! Everyone is pretty much saying the same thing. We dont expect to be top of DD class or Best pVpers or the desire to be the best pvmers.. we just want a profession that has an effective toolkit, that if used right, IS effective and worthwhile in teams both pvp and pvm.

[Obtena]

The trader profession has always been way to 'black or white' with nothing in between. I'm hoping that LESS reliance on drains for PVP and soloing and an overall better application of all the traders toolset will remedy that. Personally, I think the drain changes are a step in the right direction. That change defocuses the toolset from drains and look at the profession holistically. I think that the current situation is completely sad. All of our toolset is just one-off tricks.

[Gatester]

I completely understand what your saying.. Traders are very much so in a position to either A) Disable someone or B) Get killed.. (due to lack of much else going on in our defensive.. or even offensive arsenal).

I, like you, don't want Traders to be just an annoying mosquito.. but an annoying mosquito carrying debilitating diseases.

So you wish to model the trader profession after Catcrab?

[Nanotehnpoir]

So you wish to model the trader profession after Catcrab?

I may have missed the Catcrab references.. but I have an idea though haha

I've gone many times into how I would like the Trader profession... without much response as to what "traders" really are supposed to be...

On that note, I think I'll start a new thread and see what kind of feedback we can get...

Thanks for the reminder <3

[Whealer]

I honestly don't like the change towards the AoE method on the drains or debuffs in general. It creates a strain on the CC aspect of the toolset placing the Trader in a position of either maintaining their ability to survive or creating a scenario where they won't survive.

[Nanotehnpoir]

I honestly don't like the change towards the AoE method on the drains or debuffs in general. It creates a strain on the CC aspect of the toolset placing the Trader in a position of either maintaining their ability to survive or creating a scenario where they won't survive.

I also am not a fan, especially considering the large hit this nano-doc has on our debuffing ability (AR wise/etc)...

AoE Debuffs, in essence, are forced to be weaker... if you could use this separately, I would be okay with it.. BUT considering current game-play (at least for higher level traders) I find one drain is not an "I-Win" button even yet, therefore.. unless gameplay is slowed down considerably (allowing the Trader to work their way up to obliterate an opponent's abilities), Traders will be toast more often than not.. even with better healing abilities.

For me, it cannot be forgotten that Traders are here to "frequently cause the most formidable opponents to wither to a cracked shell of their former self." --- being able to out-heal by tanking damage with health drains (aka heals) is more-so the job of a Doctor.. I really like the increase in health drains (which is what we should be doing instead of healing ourselves) - but they also involve the risk of not landing.. which can mean death. Keep drains as the Trader's #1 priority, I say....

[rayje-defunct]

I also am not a fan, especially considering the large hit this nano-doc has on our debuffing ability (AR wise/etc)...

AoE Debuffs, in essence, are forced to be weaker... if you could use this separately, I would be okay with it.. BUT considering current game-play (at least for higher level traders) I find one drain is not an "I-Win" button even yet, therefore.. unless gameplay is slowed down considerably (allowing the Trader to work their way up to obliterate an opponent's abilities), Traders will be toast more often than not.. even with better healing abilities.

For me, it cannot be forgotten that Traders are here to "frequently cause the most formidable opponents to wither to a cracked shell of their former self." --- being able to out-heal by tanking damage with health drains (aka heals) is more-so the job of a Doctor.. I really like the increase in health drains (which is what we should be doing instead of healing ourselves) - but they also involve the risk of not landing.. which can mean death. Keep drains as the Trader's #1 priority, I say....

i have to agree with this assessment, traders need to be focused on their skill drains (the main thing that makes them unique to all other profs) and being able to use them efficiently. i would like to see the HP drains get a facelift, since theyre hardly used as much as they should be.... and nice quote btw

not sure if anything like this has been mentioned, but let me first say that i have a few traders i play for pvp, one of which i occasionally use in pvm. i share the same complaints that every other trader player does here, while i still see the side of those who are sick of being bent over by them in pvp.

my suggestion for skill drains was simply that instead of lvl locking them (since that would mean every trader in game would have to be stripped and reset since everything they twink is based on them) that you simply change how they work.

ex: instead of them draining more than they buff, swap the effects around and make them drain say like 30% from the target as they buff- the buff amount stays the same (doesnt change fundamentals of current equipment) and then increase the amount of AAO that is drained in pvm (in addition to more evade buffs being added into QU line accross diff lvls, making trader still solid for pvming)

and then also make the duration scale as the ql goes up, but instead of it being more make the duration less as the drains go higher (since higher lvls can afford to recast them more often w/o crippling their nano pool) capping at a max of something like 1 minute, 30 seconds.

these changes i believe would help to balance trader functionality in pvp while not destroying it in pvm.

and as a mandatory vote: no NA cost hike! and keep shutdown skills!!! (its the only thing trader really has going to finish an enemy in tough situations)

i came to an idea thats an addition to my previous one: while using the changes here^ cut the debuffing skills amount to lower than what they buff (would prob be best to scale the amount by ql of the drains), then make the AAO debuff work in pvp, and make it a little higher... so that way in both pvp/pvm traders will be draining some skills to buff their own for more with hopefully lesser nano costs (hence "getting more for less in every transaction") but they will more importantly be draining more AAO (pure AR) than skills, making their evasion more viable for a defensive/survival measure while not crippling a players skills to negatives. this i think would bring a nice balance to both pvm/pvp play, and make way for their evade buff lines to be prioritized...