Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[Whealer]

So which AC debuff should you cast first? the big one or the one with lowest resistance? What about casting a drain first, so the mob will be less dangerous while you cast the AC or health debuff?
To me a good and interesting situation to be put in, and having to cast multiple nanos, instead of just one over and over again(NTs have complained about that situation)

That is definitely an interesting take on the subject. My only concern though is that you don't really have the choice of choosing whether to cast A, B, C, or D first when you can only cast D after you have cast A, and B.

I do like the idea of extending all the nano lines out further while requiring the need to have drains running to cast them. That is indeed an interesting game mechanic that I enjoyed about my Trader when I started him, though I've never had the privilege of running him through ToTW since it wasn't around back then.

However I feel that I am again back to my initial question of why is this line of thinking only being applied to one nano line and why this particular line.

I've already made the decision, barring any major changes that come with the itemization part of the rebalance, that I'm not even going to bother being able to cast the top 3 nanos in this line as a choice to go with a more crit reliant setup. I also agree with your view and to some degree that of Gatester's that needing drains running to cast top nanos should be a viable option I just do not agree that being forced into a massive +nanoskill setup where every +nanoskill item is needed is the correct course of action to take.

I hope all that made sense as I enjoy having a thought provoking conversation regarding this.

[Saetos]

I will try to give you one then

Why do people play shades?
They have long and complicated chains of perks, need to be behind targets..
Why don't everyone play Adventurer?

The answer is challenge, when you get bored with having an easy time you do something more challenging.
and for the shade the extra effort means an extra reward.

I have it the same way with the trader nanos.
If I just need to execute one nano, then it is right back to what soldiers do: weapon damage.
with 2 AC nanos, 2 Drain nanos and a health drain I have the option of a combination or specialisation, if I only have time to cast 2 or 3. in effect a choice.

on top of that the laddering of skill drains is because of casting one line, then one from the other etc. you should know the drill
I find that mechanic fascinating, a way to teach players that nanos is not just -one- single thing, it is layers that can be stacted, if you have a good grasp.
Rather simple actually as they have different names and aper in the NCU, for me it adds complexity, which is what I like about AO. It adds lifetime to AO, as a new player can keep learning and experience something new.

Yea, that's all well and good, but it's ONE NANO that benefits from all this. You sacrifice so much of your damage, pour everything you've got into casting a 2730 BM/TS nano... and you're rewarded with 8% more damage and 8% more healing than the previous one that needed 2530. Wonderful mechanic, sure, but when it's only brought to use with one nano that incurs benefits unbefitting the amount of effort required to cast it, it's pointless. In fact, consider the fact you actually LOSE so much damage potential just to heal 200 more points every 4 seconds, and that's if you cast it on the second it comes back. So what's the point?

[Larafina]

you loose so much def to cast that nano that you either need a pocket doc or tank to take a piss

[Gatester]

Thinking ahead, the setups traders will take will largely depend on a single factor, the importance of nanoskills against nano resist. Traders will be casting around 8 nanos during the first 10 seconds of an encounter based on this document, in which case more importance will be made on landing those nanos.

So expanding the discussion, in which situations will nanoskills setups be viable alternatives and which ones will make them unnecessary due to equipment sacrifices? If the land rates become much more static and reliable when a player is about 100-200 points of nanoskill AR over their opponents nano resist, then nanoskill setups would likely become very popular and somewhat necessary. If land rates remain incredibly unpredictable and large gains in nanoskill AR only results in 5-10% increased land rate, then nanoskill setups would become pointless over max health, evades, weapon skill, or damage.

If extra nanoskills do not benefit the trader profession post balancing, then the requirements are nonsense. If extra nanoskills are viable and have significant influence on profession effectiveness, then the health drains act as an additional benefit and nothing else.


Also, another question about the health drains. In what ways would healing efficiency and nano damage modifiers effect this nanoline?

[Saetos]

Thinking ahead, the setups traders will take will largely depend on a single factor, the importance of nanoskills against nano resist. Traders will be casting around 8 nanos during the first 10 seconds of an encounter based on this document, in which case more importance will be made on landing those nanos.

So expanding the discussion, in which situations will nanoskills setups be viable alternatives and which ones will make them unnecessary due to equipment sacrifices? If the land rates become much more static and reliable when a player is about 100-200 points of nanoskill AR over their opponents nano resist, then nanoskill setups would likely become very popular and somewhat necessary. If land rates remain incredibly unpredictable and large gains in nanoskill AR only results in 5-10% increased land rate, then nanoskill setups would become pointless over max health, evades, weapon skill, or damage.

The fact remains that the benefit is still an 8% increase, as a tradeoff of losing so much damage and AimedShot skill. Even if that extra 200 points was that threshold needed to land everything under the sun, it's not a tangible reward, and the actual tangible reward (the top health plunder) isn't worth it.

Also, another question about the health drains. In what ways would healing efficiency and nano damage modifiers effect this nanoline?

Both modifiers work with this nano, as they have before.

[Whealer]

Something I'd be curious to know, and I'm sure we could probably already figure out fairly easily, is whether the nano damage modifiers are applied before or after the 50% PvP damage.

If before then it would be more beneficial to use a setup with +8% nano damage mod versus a max nano skill setup needed to cast the top health drain. This also allows for a more defensive or offensive equipment setup.

If the nano damage modifier is applied after 50% PvP damage then the max nanoskill setup could potentially be more viable.

Either way though from a strictly PvM standpoint this nano is lackluster at best for the nano skill investment required.

[Saetos]

Something I'd be curious to know, and I'm sure we could probably already figure out fairly easily, is whether the nano damage modifiers are applied before or after the 50% PvP damage.

It... doesn't matter. It's a percentage gain.

500 * 1.3 = 650 | 650 / 2 = 325
500 / 2 = 250 | 250 * 1.3 = 325

[Syyceria]

The rebalancing already did a great job of nerfing our roots to uselessness, but just to make sure noone bothers to cast it, Boon of the Wanderer gets another 7 percentagepoints root/snare resist and another 3 hours to it's duration...

And since our drains and evades got improved by a ton, it's just normal that adventurer also get a large buff to pistol, AS, sneak attack, burst, fast attack and a complete heal every 60 seconds (if in correct form).

Yeah...makes sense.

Oh, and sneak, the most reliable defense for most trader, gets a nice surprise too...most morphs come with a nice perception buff, and there's also a new 4h +240 buff that replaces Eagle Eye.

I assume our new defense of choice is a 20cm wall with a solid door, aka trader shop?

[Whealer]

It... doesn't matter. It's a percentage gain.

500 * 1.3 = 650 | 650 / 2 = 325
500 / 2 = 250 | 250 * 1.3 = 325

You're right I don't know how I came up with different numbers when I did that the first time.

That being the case then however baring some major changes to the nano dmg mods and heal mods on an itemization side of things you would still be better served to go that route versus more nano skills. Something worth looking into at least.

[Metafizis]

I assume our new defense of choice is a 20cm wall with a solid door, aka trader shop?

Once in there you get to shopfodder stuff for 4 hrs straight without rebuffing.

Well thought out imo.

Maybe add some furniture in there and rename it "The trader retirement home".

[Bonghigs]

The rebalancing already did a great job of nerfing our roots to uselessness, but just to make sure noone bothers to cast it, Boon of the Wanderer gets another 7 percentagepoints root/snare resist and another 3 hours to it's duration...

And since our drains and evades got improved by a ton, it's just normal that adventurer also get a large buff to pistol, AS, sneak attack, burst, fast attack and a complete heal every 60 seconds (if in correct form).

Yeah...makes sense.

Oh, and sneak, the most reliable defense for most trader, gets a nice surprise too...most morphs come with a nice perception buff, and there's also a new 4h +240 buff that replaces Eagle Eye.

I assume our new defense of choice is a 20cm wall with a solid door, aka trader shop?

Well, we all know i fight for trader rights more than the average Joe, but this post is such misinformation it's pathetic:

Boon was raised 7 points because Freedom was removed... thus root resist goes from a total of 33% to 20%. This is a loss for advys, not a gain. WHOOPS!

Advies do get more AR in their AR form, but they also lose considerable evades and considerable healing in that form. Additionally, DoF/Coon are less effective in that AR form. You are completely taking their AR gain out of context to suit your need.

First off, what trader with any self-respect uses sneak... LOL. Secondly, only the leet form gets a huge perception buff; and even with the new eagle eye it's still LESS of a perception buff than the old one (old: 900stare + 200leet + 80eagle eye; new: 700leet + 240eagle eye) since stare no longer exists. So not only do advy have less perception while in their PERCEPTION-BASED morph, they have about 740 points less when not in it. WRONG AGAIN!

[Syyceria]

Well, we all know i fight for trader rights more than the average Joe, but this post is such misinformation it's pathetic:

Boon was raised 7 points because Freedom was removed... thus root resist goes from a total of 33% to 20%. This is a loss for advys, not a gain. WHOOPS!

Freedom is self only, boon buffs others. My concern isn't about advies who had been basically unrootable anyway, it's about joe random who will run around with 20% resistance for 4 hours every time they see an advy...

Advies do get more AR in their AR form, but they also lose considerable evades and considerable healing in that form. Additionally, DoF/Coon are less effective in that AR form. You are completely taking their AR gain out of context to suit your need.

Pretty brave to go into this thread and speak about considerable losses in evades and healing...
And gosh advies lost some defense for that AR gain? Oh I'm soooo sorry for them, but once again, take a look in which thread you currently are...

First off, what trader with any self-respect uses sneak... LOL. Secondly, only the leet form gets a huge perception buff; and even with the new eagle eye it's still LESS of a perception buff than the old one (old: 900stare + 200leet + 80eagle eye; new: 700leet + 240eagle eye) since stare no longer exists. So not only do advy have less perception while in their PERCEPTION-BASED morph, they have about 740 points less when not in it. WRONG AGAIN!

I'm not sure if i lacked self-respect or a valuable defense. I would go with the latter.

And once again my concern isn't just advies who had been able to spot me in sneak anyway, but slapping 240 perception on playful club which nearly everybody uses looks like a huge perception buff to me.

Try again, and maybe without personal attacks, savvy?

[Bonghigs]

Freedom is self only, boon buffs others. My concern isn't about advies who had been basically unrootable anyway, it's about joe random who will run around with 20% resistance for 4 hours every time they see an advy...


Pretty brave to go into this thread and speak about considerable losses in evades and healing...
And gosh advies lost some defense for that AR gain? Oh I'm soooo sorry for them, but once again, take a look in which thread you currently are...


I'm not sure if i lacked self-respect or a valuable defense. I would go with the latter.

And once again my concern isn't just advies who had been able to spot me in sneak anyway, but slapping 240 perception on playful club which nearly everybody uses looks like a huge perception buff to me.

Try again, and maybe without personal attacks, savvy?

I'll not respond to the first one, because if you think a 7% gain is really that big of a deal then you're more interested in doom-and-gloom than facts.... going from 13% to 20% is hardly a game-breaking concept in any way/shape/form, especially considering one of the major points of this rebalance is to remove "annoying" things like roots/snares (hence the shorter durations across the board for all rooting profs).

I'm well aware the forum i'm in, but fail to see how that is relevant. FC has said many times that the rebalancing is not intended to make all profs equal in pvp. I'm as pissed as the next trader that after rebalance i'll basically have to retire my favorite toon, but comparing directly to the advy is pointless and futile. You might a well ask why doctors get better healing and traders don't... they're different professions with different toolkits.

Advies used to be able to buff 980 perception... now they buff 240... what part of my earlier math was unclear?


As i've said (and posted earlier countless times), i'm as mad as anyone that traders are basically being made into a non-viable class for pvp but that doesn't mean you can take other professions' changes completely out of context as a means to whine. Using relevant comparisons is much more likely to get FC's attention in the right way.

[Syyceria]

There's a difference from going 13% for 1 hour to 20% for 4 hours. I wouldn't bother getting the first one, but with the 50% gain on the "improved" version and 300% on its duration it seems like something i might ask advies regulary. *Together* with the extreme nerf on the duration on our roots it has the potential to render our cc-tool completely useless, just in case anyone had any doubts after reading the first draft of the trader document.

The perception rant might have been overkill but another free 240 perception, maybe even on a graft(?), sounds like the difference between being spotted by another PvPer or not. I know I only went through the trouble to get stare when it was really personal. Anyone ever bothered getting stare inside the battlestation?

And i'm taking nothing out of context, the amount that this "rebalancing" changes our profession is not only done by our nano document, but also by what others will have running in their ncu. And personally I found it interesting that FC is able to nerf evades/heals for a profession without nerfing the offense too, if this theme continues for the other professions, more AR for everyone to compensate loosing the effectiveness of AimedShot, we got shafted pretty badly.

[Bonghigs]

There's a difference from going 13% for 1 hour to 20% for 4 hours. I wouldn't bother getting the first one, but with the 50% gain on the "improved" version and 300% on its duration it seems like something i might ask advies regulary. *Together* with the extreme nerf on the duration on our roots it has the potential to render our cc-tool completely useless, just in case anyone had any doubts after reading the first draft of the trader document.

The perception rant might have been overkill but another free 240 perception, maybe even on a graft(?), sounds like the difference between being spotted by another PvPer or not. I know I only went through the trouble to get stare when it was really personal. Anyone ever bothered getting stare inside the battlestation?

And i'm taking nothing out of context, the amount that this "rebalancing" changes our profession is not only done by our nano document, but also by what others will have running in their ncu. And personally I found it interesting that FC is able to nerf evades/heals for a profession without nerfing the offense too, if this theme continues for the other professions, more AR for everyone to compensate loosing the effectiveness of AimedShot, we got shafted pretty badly.

Everyone's CC has had durations nerfed, not just ours... this is a larger trend for FunCom because people cried nerf at rooting (just like at our drains) and FC has responded. This is not trader specfic and thus is a bit of a moot point. You may not be happy with it, but it is happening across the board and that makes it balanced and fair.

Regarding your perception, i think you bay be a bit confused. You're willing to get eagle eye for 240 but you aren't willing to get stare for 900? I'm completely baffled by your logic here and would suggest you take another peak at the adventurer document as i think you may be confused about the buffs.

Also, if you are talking about advies in your last paragraph then what you are saying didnt happen, did. Advies got LESS ar/heals if they are in an evades morph (wolf), they get less evades/heals if they are in the ar morph (cat)... they no longer have it all at once by any means. Again, i would suggest a closer look at the document as i think you may be a bit confused.


And for clarity's sake here, there is no insult intended in my posts... i'm trying to have a conversation and while i make jest a bit there's certainly no insult intended. This is a video game after all

[Gatester]

First off Syyceria, the Offensive morph for advies losing out on 36000 healing per minute, no CH, losing 700 perception, losing 500 runspeed, and losing 500 evades alongside an unknown level of nerfing of bio cocoon and acrobat perks is not some minor nerf, that is a serious shutdown of capabilities and FC has pretty much indicated that the offensive morph will be relying on concealment to gank their opponents.

The offensive morph advy has LESS survival than your trader even after this documentation, and the complete lack of advy NR in anything but tank form means you will drain them easily so their only hope is to in fact gank you from conceal. Adventurers will be similar to shades now where they are relying on either atrox for MR or have to make a grave decision between workable defense or offense while lacking the ability to have both simultaneously.

The 20% CC tool resistance is just bogus misrealization of the application of CC tools in the future. You will not be choosing between whether to drain, heal, or use CC tools. You will be using CC tools in between the cooldowns of other tools, which means you will be casting CC tools far more often post balancing than you do currently.


While traders were not nerfed hard but nerfed a little too much, in which there is a massive difference, adventurers have been entirely reworked in the nano document and are far different and weaker.

[Bonghigs]

First off Syyceria, the Offensive morph for advies losing out on 36000 healing per minute, no CH, losing 700 perception, losing 500 runspeed, and losing 500 evades alongside an unknown level of nerfing of bio cocoon and acrobat perks is not some minor nerf, that is a serious shutdown of capabilities and FC has pretty much indicated that the offensive morph will be relying on concealment to gank their opponents.

The offensive morph advy has LESS survival than your trader even after this documentation, and the complete lack of advy NR in anything but tank form means you will drain them easily so their only hope is to in fact gank you from conceal. Adventurers will be similar to shades now where they are relying on either atrox for MR or have to make a grave decision between workable defense or offense while lacking the ability to have both simultaneously.

The 20% CC tool resistance is just bogus misrealization of the application of CC tools in the future. You will not be choosing between whether to drain, heal, or use CC tools. You will be using CC tools in between the cooldowns of other tools, which means you will be casting CC tools far more often post balancing than you do currently.


While traders were not nerfed hard but nerfed a little too much, in which there is a massive difference, adventurers have been entirely reworked in the nano document and are far different and weaker.

This!

[Hometown]

First off Syyceria, the Offensive morph for advies losing out on 36000 healing per minute, no CH, losing 700 perception, losing 500 runspeed, and losing 500 evades alongside an unknown level of nerfing of bio cocoon and acrobat perks is not some minor nerf, that is a serious shutdown of capabilities and FC has pretty much indicated that the offensive morph will be relying on concealment to gank their opponents.

The offensive morph advy has LESS survival than your trader even after this documentation, and the complete lack of advy NR in anything but tank form means you will drain them easily so their only hope is to in fact gank you from conceal. Adventurers will be similar to shades now where they are relying on either atrox for MR or have to make a grave decision between workable defense or offense while lacking the ability to have both simultaneously.

The 20% CC tool resistance is just bogus misrealization of the application of CC tools in the future. You will not be choosing between whether to drain, heal, or use CC tools. You will be using CC tools in between the cooldowns of other tools, which means you will be casting CC tools far more often post balancing than you do currently.


While traders were not nerfed hard but nerfed a little too much, in which there is a massive difference, adventurers have been entirely reworked in the nano document and are far different and weaker.

I didn't notice any OFFENSIVE drawback on either morph, so what are you talking about? Most will still use wolf.

[Syyceria]

Everyone's CC has had durations nerfed, not just ours... this is a larger trend for FunCom because people cried nerf at rooting (just like at our drains) and FC has responded. This is not trader specfic and thus is a bit of a moot point. You may not be happy with it, but it is happening across the board and that makes it balanced and fair.

Just because 2 other professions got the same toolset also crippled doesn't mean it's balanced and fair. We relied on keeping opponents away because we are squish and not to piss of people. We cried that we have no defense and it's annoying that a lot of professions can q123-kill us while it takes us a few minutes to kill for example a drained keeper. We got a major part of our evades, our drains and roots crippled with the ability to remove nano more effectivly and a NR check on our heal. That's not balanced. Nor is it fair.

Regarding your perception, i think you bay be a bit confused. You're willing to get eagle eye for 240 but you aren't willing to get stare for 900? I'm completely baffled by your logic here and would suggest you take another peak at the adventurer document as i think you may be confused about the buffs.

I don't have to ask for a perception buff, i get it for free when i get an morph. And don't forget that I'm a trader, in city PvP or mass PvP I usually don't go through the trouble to seek an advy as it's highly likely that the trouble was wasted because I already died before spotting a shade that I wouldn't have been able to spot without it.

Also, if you are talking about advies in your last paragraph then what you are saying didnt happen, did. Advies got LESS ar/heals if they are in an evades morph (wolf), they get less evades/heals if they are in the ar morph (cat)... they no longer have it all at once by any means. Again, i would suggest a closer look at the document as i think you may be a bit confused.

I blame "Scum" for not pointing out how much ar/heal/evades/... are lost in each morph. But looking at the reaction in the thread, I'm sure the advies "nerf" is in a completly different league than the trader "changes". Same with cocoon/br/DoF/... nerf. I haven't seen any advy yet saying 'lol...wat? What am I supposed to do with *that*?'.

Regarding "i'll spam my cc tools"...looking at the numbers of the trader document, which i must admit i studied more than the adventurer document, I highly doubt it, considering the effectiveness, nano costs, duration, and the fact that I'll probably be busy running away from battle...

[Metafizis]

While traders were not nerfed hard but nerfed a little too much, in which there is a massive difference, adventurers have been entirely reworked in the nano document and are far different and weaker.

So in other words, traders got dumbed down to a joke, while advys are going to actually be kill-able now without a zerg ?

First off, what trader with any self-respect uses sneak... LOL.

Seeing how easily they can get dropped, I'm surprised more don't IP it.

Also, I know a certain fixer that sneaks .... lol..