Crat debuffs

[Daggzz]

Are we not talking endgame? the -250 we get at lower levels isn't really a good representative of crat int debuffing?

He was talking about both, how could you not realize that.

The lower level thing was used as an example to null the fact the you said crats absolutely need init debuffs to solo.

[Koizumi]

Whenever crats are adjusted to the point where they can't solo raids anymore, I'll be perfectly happy.

As long as you take away the ability to solo raids for ALL other professions.....i DO mind nerfing crat toolset (its fsckd up enough already).....but i dont mind updating these raids with abilites to counter crat soloabilities, altho imo this has been already done imo(at least in some cases), its not too hard to counter crat deinits....

This whole thread is a joke imo....nerf crats of his only unique pvm stuff
And then when the mobs w/o crat deinits will become to hard, it'll be another whine just like with Atalas.

[howlin]

Crats are not a one trick monkeys..even if some of them want to be just that.

[MachSchau]

Lets have mobs randomly clear their debuffs and have immunity for 30 seconds, more dynamic pvm and everyone gets to be on their toes.

Oh right, too hard, wont change a thing, stupid idea, just get more docs, x profession is still oped, nerf x profession.

The results are in and you cant balance pvm in the eyes of the gamer, they like their oped tool sets, they like not having the typical team setups, they like pwning stuff that yields no challenge. Yup, best not touch pvm. No one has complained about it since this whole balance discussion forum came to be. Yup, lets not change a thing.

[Koizumi]

Lets have mobs randomly clear their debuffs and have immunity for 30 seconds, more dynamic pvm and everyone gets to be on their toes.

Actually....
....mobs doin random things at random times seems like a really cool idea imo

Pretty good one, nerfing easiness of pvm w/o fscking up crat pvp toolset, thumbs up!

[Saetos]

Yet you traders are far better off in pvp than a crat with a toolset that actually cripples things besides docs/agent in fp doc.

And solo raids? Your a professional not a troll, please lets act like one.

I wasn't talking about PVP, that's not what I play my Trader for, for the most part. I'm talking about PVM, where we literally offer nothing that a Bureaucrat can't top us in.

I'm well aware that other professions are able to solo raids, and I'm as willing to see that changed as the next guy. But I find the Bureaucrat being able to do so as a special circumstance, primarily because they have no heals - a cornerstone of an outlaster.

[MachSchau]

Actually....
....mobs doin random things at random times seems like a really cool idea imo

Pretty good one, nerfing easiness of pvm w/o fscking up crat pvp toolset, thumbs up!

No, its a dumb idea, debuffs become useless cause mobs wipes them, thats a dumbing down of pvm.

[bonkbonk]

I wasn't talking about PVP, that's not what I play my Trader for, for the most part. I'm talking about PVM, where we literally offer nothing that a Bureaucrat can't top us in.

it's very unprofessional of you to ask someone performing better than you in pvm to be nerfed while blatantly dismissing pvp where the profession you represent absolutely dominates entire tl ranges. youre not a professional, youre just a grumpy guy (that lacks game knowledge too)

[Mostadio]

No, its a dumb idea, debuffs become useless cause mobs wipes them, thats a dumbing down of pvm.

Lolwut? As opposed to an barrage of debuffs followed by 5 mins of q /afk? I hope you're joking...

[MachSchau]

Lolwut? As opposed to an barrage of debuffs followed by 5 mins of q /afk? I hope you're joking...

I have never been more serious in my life. Dont nerf characters tool sets in PvM, its not fun and stupid and just a band aid fix.

[Mountaingoat]

I'm well aware that other professions are able to solo raids, and I'm as willing to see that changed as the next guy. But I find the Bureaucrat being able to do so as a special circumstance, primarily because they have no heals - a cornerstone of an outlaster.

So...what does this mean? Crats are outlasters so the method they use to outlast deserves to be nerfed?

Lolwut? As opposed to an barrage of debuffs followed by 5 mins of q /afk? I hope you're joking...

That would be q /afk 18s actually.

[Sterva]

I've resisted weighing in on this thread, because I don't think it's been very constructive so far, but here's my opinion for anyone who cares.

PvM:

Raids - some of them are too easy because of init debuffs (blanket statement, this includes init debuffs beyond crats, UBT + procs has an even more exaggerated effect). Some raids are nearly impossible WITHOUT init debuffs.

Hence, there is no easy solution to pvm raids and init debuffs. You can't just give mobs immunity to toolsets, that's no fun for the players who want to use their toolsets, but you also can't make it impossible to raid unless you have players using init debuffs.

My suggestion? Redesign mobs to behave one way if init debuffs aren't running, and behave another way if init debuffs are running. Have init debuffs significantly slow down hits, sure, but then have mobs gain access to special other abilities depending on how they're debuffed. Have them be gimpier if they're init debuffed, but not completely useless (as some of them now are).

Soloing - bureaucrats have always been one of the best pvm soloing professions ingame. Deal with it. If you have e-peen envy because your profession wasn't meant to solo well in pvm, reroll. Bureaucrats are only able to solo difficult mobs through practice and playing very carefully, as we have no heals. Init debuffs facilitates survival, but does not make it a walk in the park.

PvP:

As with any debuff, init debuffs are controversial because they cripple a few select profs, and those profs whine loudly (I'm looking at you agents). I say collapse RT, make RT and Malaise removable with scanners like any other debuff, and it's balanced. I don't personally think that init debuffs are an i-win button versus any profession, but if someone does, I think that a better way to approach it would be to ask for a boost, as crats aren't the only ones with init debuffs.

[haavarst]

Not sure where your post went S, but it make sense as always Edit: ah its back, it was a PEBCAK
And a merge would be ok or a redesign like doc's malpractice... but that could make it totally useless. But it should be removalble and maby even a small chanse to brake when hit.

[Xtremtech]

My suggestion? Redesign mobs to behave one way if init debuffs aren't running, and behave another way if init debuffs are running. Have init debuffs significantly slow down hits, sure, but then have mobs gain access to special other abilities depending on how they're debuffed. Have them be gimpier if they're init debuffed, but not completely useless (as some of them now are).

This goes to one of the core issues of debuffs (and cc) in PvM. It's really about lack of flexibility in Mob AI and toolset. The predictability and one-trick pony nature of so many mobs makes the effect of debuffs/cc a bit too black and white. A debuff powerful enough to have a major effect tends to trivialise the content partly because mobs tend not to have a 'Plan B'.

It would be great if a fast-nuking mob got init debuffed and so switched to using self-heals instead for example... or if a ranged mob that got its AR debuffed moved in to use a melee weapon with a lower def check on it... or whatever. The plan B needs to be less powerful than plan A, but still powerful enough to cause problems - or perhaps require the usage of another type of debuff...

Another approach that would be useful, would be more multi-mob encounters with mobs of different types working together. So a mix of ranged, nuking, healing and melee mobs with different sensitivities to debuffs would mean that effectively disabling one type would still leave strength in the overall encounter. For example, NSDing a healing mob makes the overall encounter easier without completely knobbling all the mobs and their attack. Or AoE rooting an encounter might allow you to largely trivialise melee mobs in the group, but ranged and nuking mobs would still be active. Or if a mob got init debuffed, then another mob might buff that mob with an init buff as a partial counter...

Mob AI and just general PvM encounter cleverness is key to both making debuffs/cc useful without being overpowering.

X

[MachSchau]

These are stupid ideas, its just going to make it so we need more heals, thats dumb and with AOs population in a recession its going to be soooo hard to find qualified teams under those circumstances.

[Manicmouse]

Actually I like the idea of bosses with plan Bs.

It could get more profs involved - for example a boss than can deal out heavy AOE nukes/debuffs could be NSDed, but if that lands the boss gains AR and makes it harder for the tank. You have to weigh up how you will approach the boss, NSD to prevent nukes, or easier tanking but with potential loss of team members?

I'm sure with some thought FC could create something new that is challenging and encourages team variety.

(btw not lol kippur now has a helpful nano lol theory)

[Saetos]

I'll start from the bottom first:

(that lacks game knowledge too)

I haven't rolled a Fixer in years; completely forgot Hit & Run had already been given to them. My mistake. I doubt that takes away my standings as a Trader Professional...

it's very unprofessional of you to ask someone performing better than you in pvm to be nerfed while blatantly dismissing pvp where the profession you represent absolutely dominates entire tl ranges. youre not a professional, youre just a grumpy guy

Don't take my words out of context. My previous post on the subject was meant purely for PVM comparison. The reply mentioned our PVP prowess, which I wasn't referring to by any means. I'm not "ignoring" PVP comparisons when I ask Bureaucrat nanos to be adjusted, and my position as Professional should not and does not prevent me from asking for changes to certain toolsets. Be that as it may, I don't want Bureaucrats to become b*tchslapped and useless, nor have I indicated that they should be as such.

The problem with Trader PVM as it stands is that we are, essentially, miniature Bureaucrats. Our DD is smaller, our calms weaker, our AAO buffage smaller (and useless), our AAD buffing nonexistant, our roots slightly weaker (in regards to NR checks), our snares nonexistant. Our Outfit nanos (team nanoregen) are barely useful, as most, if not all, professions have learned to set themselves up to have a high and fast NanoDelta.

Our only contributions to teams are "decent" DD, nanoskill buffing, and NR/AC debuffing, which interestingly manifests itself primarily at the Collector, whom also designates us as a primary kicker. However, NTs can already debuff NR for enough amount, and our AC debuffs are completely wild, to the point where certain bosses will get their ACs cut down dramatically and others won't even care about -18000 ACs. I sometimes never bother with them except for when there's an MA in the team or I know that the Abolish nanos will do anything, as all except the Martial Artist has their best weapons using a pathetically small damage range.

I am aware of Traders being extraordinarily powerful in PVP at the lower title levels, and I agree that a problem does exist in that regard. First off, again, I did not say to "ignore PVP" as a whole; only for the post when comparing the PVM powers of Traders and Bureaucrats. Secondly, it'll be a monumental feat to change our drains and other aspects of our toolset without completely neutering one of the few things that makes Traders unique - i.e. being able to use nanoprograms to equip startlingly high QL weapons. Take that away from us, and we become even worse in PVM than we are now.

So...what does this mean? Crats are outlasters so the method they use to outlast deserves to be nerfed?

Not quite. I meant that as a pet profession lacking heals, the fact that they can be better outlasters than many other professions due to their init debuffs and bone-dead AI strikes a strange chord. I don't think of Bureaucrats as outlasters, but if FunCom views them as such and Malaxia does as well, then count me mistaken.

[bonkbonk]

I haven't rolled a Fixer in years; completely forgot Hit & Run had already been given to them. My mistake. I doubt that takes away my standings as a Trader Professional...

pulling an ocene without checking the facts should disqualify anyone as a professional.

The problem with Trader PVM as it stands is that we are, essentially, miniature Bureaucrats. Our DD is smaller, our calms weaker, our AAO buffage smaller (and useless), our AAD buffing nonexistant, our roots slightly weaker (in regards to NR checks), our snares nonexistant. Our Outfit nanos (team nanoregen) are barely useful, as most, if not all, professions have learned to set themselves up to have a high and fast NanoDelta.

boo hoo. fixers are miniature soldiers with nothing important to offer to a team. have you seen fixer professionals qqing much about soldiers?

I am aware of Traders being extraordinarily powerful in PVP at the lower title levels, and I agree that a problem does exist in that regard. First off, again, I did not say to "ignore PVP" as a whole; only for the post when comparing the PVM powers of Traders and Bureaucrats. Secondly, it'll be a monumental feat to change our drains and other aspects of our toolset without completely neutering one of the few things that makes Traders unique - i.e. being able to use nanoprograms to equip startlingly high QL weapons. Take that away from us, and we become even worse in PVM than we are now.

but, as a professional with nothing preventing you 'from asking for changes to certain toolsets' you want something that makes crats unique to be taken away from them, making them worse in pvp, because they perform better in pvm than you.

[Esproc]

I don't want to be support, I want to kill things with fire!
>.>

[Saetos]

pulling an ocene without checking the facts should disqualify anyone as a professional.

I say again, Trader Professional. I do not keep tabs on every single profession and every change they get. As my specialization is Traders and I keep tabs on the changes on the professions I play (Soldier, Agent, MA mostly) I will forget subtle Fixer details over time.

Ocene's case was daily missions, which apply to all characters and is a recent change.

boo hoo. fixers are miniature soldiers with nothing important to offer to a team. have you seen fixer professionals qqing much about soldiers?

They're not in the same dichotomy as Trader/Bureaucrat. While Fixer DD is indeed lower in comparison to Soldiers, they also carry a stronger soloing toolset with high evades and 2-4 HOTs, plus they can give two of those HOTs to a tank if needed. On top of this, they can buff NCU if the tank or other professions are struggling to buff other team buffs in theirs. Yes I realize the buffing DOTs aren't very strong on their own from what I've heard and read, but it is a toolset that Fixers have that Soldiers do not. I suppose you can say that we have Outfit and Bureaucrats don't, but Outfit is bumf*ck useless to us as it doesn't regen our own NanoPool.

but, as a professional with nothing preventing you 'from asking for changes to certain toolsets' you want something that makes crats unique to be taken away from them, making them worse in pvp, because they perform better in pvm than you.

What exactly makes init debuffs "unique" in regards to Bureaucrats? Doctors have them too, in both proc form and nano form. I also never expressively said for anything to be taken from Bureaucrats, but rather adjusted. If that means taking them away then so be it, but I'm not asking for Bureaucrats to become just nukers with pets.