MA balancing

[McKnuckleSamwich]

With the balancing of professions being undertaken once the daily missions hit live, and the information currently available, I think many of us have had some time to think through how the changes will impact our professions.

One proposed change that has many MA's wondering about the future of the profession is the mutual lock out on AS, FA and SA.

In light of this, PVPing MA's are worried about their ability to fulfill the role that they have had for the last several years.

PVPing MA's for a long time have been glass cannons. MA's have some very large perk defences which function only against perks and non-checking specials. While this provides a significant source of defence, it lasts at best 1:20 or 40 seconds.

After that time, MA's must have either killed their opponent, or have significantly weakened them so that they must be in recovery mode once MA's reach the end of their perk defence.

With MA's perk changes, their most significant perk defence is getting a shortened duration, and shorter recharge, and the addition of Parry defence, which should, if If I'm not mistaken, provide brief intermittant periods of being susceptible to more damage, with moderate defense against capping specials which have been the worst nightmare of MA's for years now.

MA's defence will be centered around cycling DOF and Limber, and, depending on the recharge of parry, should include at the very least a parry becoming available every 40 seconds to coincide with the defense low point in the cycle. The cycle is finally augmented by the addition of 1000 AAD via Evasive stance, which will have a shorter 30 second duration and a 3 minute recharge to coincide with MR recharges.

MA defences will finally be on par with most other professions if Parry recharge is 40 seconds or less, and is able to block 2 specials over a 15 second cycle. (11 seconds for AS/FA/SA recharge+3 seconds execution time+1 second of lag). This will accentuate the importance of secondary specials, such as fling shot, burst, brawl and fast attack.

Where MA's are currently falling through the cracks of balance:

Martial Artists have since the beginning, been the single profession deigned to be capable of bow use at a level at which it may become the main weapon. With the addition of the AI perkline for Bow, it was clear that MA's were the Sole bearers of the responsibility of using this rare weapon.

The bow standard for MA's is possibly the weakest playstyle among all professions and all developer-designed setups.

How can we balance ranged MA's? Here are my interpretations of how to fix this problem:

1. Add aimed shot and fling shot to the AI bow perk line
2. Allow a conversion from ranged init to Phys init by application of a 6th clump (for example) to the ofab bow.
3. Reduce the AI perkline to 8 perks.
4. Make UWoS usuable while wearing Bow
5. Up the -init (-600 to all) debuff on arrows of albatraum
6. Make add damage bonuses apply to thrown objects and bow special attack
7. Make an SL professional perkline for MA's which is 6 perks long, and has all perks requirement wearing a ranged weapon,

The perk line needs to add phys init, AAD and Bow AR (100 total)
The line should contain 3 perk actions.
Perk action 1: Clean kill. -2000 runspeed and nano init on target for 8 seconds, unbreakable, Check Bow AR vs. 100% dodge range
Perk action 2: Running recovery. Scaling HOT on number of perks in line, at top, should recover 4k health in 8 seconds
Perk action 3: Acupuncture. 4 Second stun on target, -400 AAD on target, thrown Objects skill vs. 30% dodge range

This perkline and the changes listed above will help MA's perform at a level comparable to other professions while using ranged attacks as their main offense.

Some things to consider:
1. MA has no perk healing with ranged weapons
2. MA has hugely substandard AR with ranged weapons
3. MA must currently make significant concessions to use ranged weapons in PVP
4. Currently a ranged weapon Alpha is very very poor for MA.

[Parranoid1]

all that stuff

what is stopping a MA perking that line, hotswapping on a bow with 0.1 sec equip time, using say the 4k heal and the 4 sec stun, and swapping off the bow and attacking with fists? 4 sec stun and -400 aad is ALOT for what they need to use it.

i can see this just being a different use to hotswap a bow instead of AS, they get a 4 sec stun, massive aad debuff, 2k snare and a 4k hot compairable in healing ticks to BR

[McKnuckleSamwich]

good point. The reality is though, is that the AR on bow is really low, so, the MA would need to have invested at least 6 SL perks and 10 AI perks (but probably 20 AI perks) and Maxed bow IP for that stun, and that would effectively cripple an MA's ability to fight with fists.

As for the heal, the heal could cancel if the bow was removed. Alternately, the 4k heal could have an associated nano/perk cooldown that stopped the hotswap.

I'm not trying to give MA's anything OP'd here, the problem is that MA's in ranged setup are lacking big parts to their toolset that have never been updated.

Thanks for the response, and I'll try to answer what my interpretations are of any threats to it objectively.

[Scottik]

what is stopping a MA perking that line, hotswapping on a bow with 0.1 sec equip time, using say the 4k heal and the 4 sec stun, and swapping off the bow and attacking with fists?

Using stun will put you in recharge. You can't swap weapons while in recharge.

[Kazeran]

Using stun will put you in recharge. You can't swap weapons while in recharge.

As of now, it may very well change. That alone will help alot.

[erozc]

Speaking of help... MAs won't eat 11sec capped AS from all ranged professions anymore either with the AS changes while gaining parry and retaining SA along with the best regular hit damage (crits ofc) of any profession. Do you think those will help?

No comment on ranged MA suggestions though, just a semi on topic mostly non-trolling post.

[navycut]

Using stun will put you in recharge. You can't swap weapons while in recharge.

Nah, the only stuns that put you in nanorecharge are MA attack stuns, normal stuns don't put you in nanorecharge.

[Jekonam]

There should be no significant runspeed differences.

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There should not be %&"/(()=€ annoying melee range problems with melee professions.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Speaking of help... MAs won't eat 11sec capped AS from all ranged professions anymore either with the AS changes while gaining parry and retaining SA along with the best regular hit damage (crits ofc) of any profession. Do you think those will help?

No comment on ranged MA suggestions though, just a semi on topic mostly non-trolling post.

I'm not sure how viable SA will be after the balance. However, I don't really know because SA might be going to an 11s recharge. If that was the case, I might keep my shen+obfuscating dagger setup, instead of trying ranged.

As for "all" ranged profs.... I'm not sure how many profs will switch out the AS pistol for something else.. what would they use? Imo, the AS pistol is OP'd enough to merit using even after the AS change, but thats partly my frustration with being an AS magnet seeping through...

[Kinkstaah]

Making MA's better at range is not the best way to improve MA's.

[NoGoal]

I'm not sure how viable SA will be after the balance. However, I don't really know because SA might be going to an 11s recharge. If that was the case, I might keep my shen+obfuscating dagger setup, instead of trying ranged.

That's unlikely to happen. SA is fine as it is now imho.

[Soliartist]

AS shot with a Bow also includes Ice of Albtraum - Special Arrows though. At worst you can always reset Bow Skill in order to shoot a few ASs from time to ime, coupled with Alb Arrows. Even with a Bow Skill unraised, I'm pretty sure you can still swap a Superior Sapphistic Bow, no ? Could also use a Bang of Thunder for some lethal AS as a finisher or something. Got to be tried when all of this balance stuff's done. But if everything was set correctly, there should never have any use or need in upgrading the ranged side of MAs imo. On the other hand, it wouldn't be bad to try something else ...

There are plenty of major things to do with MAs before that.

[Gatester]

Rather than focusing on AS with bows, I'd prefer the ability to hit as hard as fists with regular shots. In the future regulars should be a viable means of doing damage, and sharing that with bows alone would be generous.

Special arrows are comparative but weaker than MA attacks, and lack the variety, but I believe there is also a point where having ranged makes up for some differences. For example, UWoS being an anti-CC tool is more necessary for a melee MA than a ranged MA if both have comparable offense. Increase the variety of special arrows for the various situations would be smart and fair, but allowing equal use of MA attacks would not.

Also, you seem to wish to give bow MAs an equal style and level of healing to fist MAs, but is that also the right thing to do? Rather than making the styles almost exactly the same, and changing the range and names of the specials, ranged MAs could make more use of tactics that fist MAs would not. Instead of surviving by healing and tanking, ranged MAs could rely on snares, use of fear, and kiting to avoid damage. They should also have an advantage in evades over fist MAs. This way, a bow MA is different but still viable, and also appeals to different players.

My actual suggestion though would be to greatly increase bow wielding crit chance that would not be accessible for fist wielders. This would possibly be at the cost of AS, but to make up for the difference of triple wielding vs a single wielded bows DPM, and what im sure would be lower damage compared to pure fists, the offset of increased crit chance could be fair. This also makes up for a lack of Flurry of Blows, so even applying that 20% crit chance to a static bow buff seems prudent.

[Dethrattle]

They should also have an advantage in evades over fist MAs.

if anything, the reverse should be true.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The reality is, is ranged MA's want to enjoy being ranged. Same as ranged advies want to enjoy being ranged.

MA's are the only prof that are able to use top QL bows (aside from MP's who use the gimped ones) so, MA's should be able to use bow's as effectively as fists.

I am not saying they should have the same benefits or perks, BUT, MA's don't have tons of specials to unload to do burst damage, so, they often require being able to debuff or stun their opponents to produce a kill.

I understand that AS is burst damage, however, AS will likely make up 90% of damage produced using bow, so, instead of it being burst, I'd say it's more like the 'damage'. The point is, MA's do need more support for bow to make it an even remotely plausible option as a main attack.

We do need more bow spec attack options, and, fling shot could use a serious upgrade.

And, sure as hell we will need a perk heal.

[CriticalDmg]

I was going to quote and comment on the OP, but it'd be too long (yes, longer then this wall of text) with the amount of holes in there, but one thing I want to know: since when "MA balancing" (as the title says) means Ranged Bow wielding MAs only ?
I've been out of the game for several months but ffs, there's like 3 ranged MAs on RK1 that I know of (2 stopped playing before I left, and I didn't see any of them since I came back either), and I don't know how many MAs on RK2 run around with a Bow equipped... but since when balance is for a non-existent prof template ? Or... are you gonna tell me that Fixers with a (constant, not swap) melee Backstab weapon (*), or NTs with a Pistol (*/*/*) or Ranged Energy (*/*), and so on are valid "templates" !? What's next... someone will want balance for "Heavy Weapons Agents" or "Dual wielding Smg Shades?

Making MA's better at range is not the best way to improve MA's.

That word in red shouldn't be there, plain and simple.
Having a non-"dark blue" weapon skill, or even having nanos and some equipment that adds to a certain skill - does NOT make it a valid template !

The main reason those few MAs went ranged is because the sync in AO blows more then a cheap (something I'm not allowed to say here, but let's just replace it with a) vacuum cleaner... and the only reason there's less whines about it on the forums is not because the sync got fixed, but because it got masked with a pretty dysfunctional movement prediction system (it doesn't really predict anything, just moves everyone straight ahead a few meters), that's why you see people run 10 steps ahead and then warp back to their spot when in reality all they did was move one tiny step ahead.

Making new ranged alternatives is NOT what a fundamentally melee profession needs, period. (MAs are NOT f***ing advies!!)

[Soliartist]

Got to agree with Crit there. There are so many things on the board for regular MAs with balance that I don't know if it leaves much space for Ranged ones.

On the other hand, Noobast is not suggesting something in vain I think. If there aren't a lot of MAs who carry a Bow permanently, that's probably because current Ranged MAs state's kinda out of interest, out of efficiency. Maybe there would be a lot more Ranged MAs if FC dared to make a step or two forward that tricky side of ours. It wouldn't interfere in other Professions' balance, as far as I know. As long as it does not create any issue with everything planned for melee MAs, I fail to see where the problem is.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Got to agree with Crit there. There are so many things on the board for regular MAs with balance that I don't know if it leaves much space for Ranged ones.

On the other hand, Noobast is not suggesting something in vain I think. If there aren't a lot of MAs who carry a Bow permanently, that's probably because current Ranged MAs state's kinda out of interest, out of efficiency. Maybe there would be a lot more Ranged MAs if FC dared to make a step or two forward that tricky side of ours. It wouldn't interfere in other Professions' balance, as far as I know. As long as it does not create any issue with everything planned for melee MAs, I fail to see where the problem is.

Indeed. I chose not to comment on melee/phys MA's because I feel it's been talked out.

Neccoz, before he left, raised an important point about MA's. How is a ranged MA supposed to function? And he tried hard, and, so far as I know, nothing worked well enough to make him want to stay.

Ange is right, there may not be enough room on the plate for balancing both fighting templates, but that doesn't mean Ranged options should be swept under the table.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the diversity in AO that attracted us in the first place?

[Szyylin]

Having a non-"dark blue" weapon skill, or even having nanos and some equipment that adds to a certain skill - does NOT make it a valid template !

According to skill colors, all agents should run around with a sneak attack weapon (SA is our only green weapon skill) and be good at chemistry.

Those obsolete things that were decided years and years ago do not justify anything to do with the rebalance act.

[navycut]

For example, UWoS being an anti-CC tool is more necessary for a melee MA than a ranged MA if both have comparable offense.

Honestly, I don't really use uwos as a root remover much, I mean I do sometimes but I mainly use it for the NR buff.

Some examples against profs that can root you:

I see a crat, the first thing I'll do is use uwos on his pet (uwos doesn't land on crats) I won't wait 'til he roots me then use uwos, since uwos allows me to counter 90% of whatever he throws out, be it a malaise or a root or red tape.

Against fixers well heh uwos doesn't even work on them

Against traders, well I fear their drains much more than roots so I use as soon as I see them.

Against agents I use it asap to avoid their ubt. Agents don't really bother rooting much though :P

Against NTs well it helps to counter CB sometimes and counters those roots/doubles so I use asap.

So I'll imagine a ranged MA will want it for those purposes listed above as well

The reality is, is ranged MA's want to enjoy being ranged. Same as ranged advies want to enjoy being ranged.

MA's are the only prof that are able to use top QL bows (aside from MP's who use the gimped ones) so, MA's should be able to use bow's as effectively as fists.

What ranged MAs? There's only 1. But that's like saying ranged enforcers need love, I mean we are a melee class... just because we have support for a weapon type doesn't mean we were meant to use that weapon as a main weapon, because we have MUCH more support for fists than bow hence it's logical that FC meant for us to use fists. While advs always had equal-ish support for pistol and for 1he


Thing is, if you want a ranged prof with AS, why not roll something like an agent or something?