What makes Enforcers OP in your opinion?

[Ciex]

So our conclusion so far is that agents can beat 1he / 1hb enfs?

How much aad and ar can agents have? Do agents have any stuns?

[Kinkstaah]

People are still thinking enfs are OP?

Lol. They should reroll or learn to play.

On the reroll note, do you know anyone who rerolled an Enforcer due to their superior PVP prowess and stuck to playing one? I don't either.

Perhaps there's a reason for that.

[Kinkstaah]

And about enf AAD. A competent player can hit a perfectly setup enforcer with towers without any kind of issue.

Enf AAD may as well be zero vs a competent player. That has to be the weakest argument on the entire forum, lol.

Enfs have NR/RS/Root breaker to attempt to get in range to attempt an alpha. Good players, esp with rrfe will avoid, mitigate/survive this and then the enforcer has nothing. Seriously, if you find yourself getting roflstomped by any enforcer the issue is you.

[Gatester]

You're making qualitative judgement backed up by little more than your own opinion. NR might be your favorite defense, but it certainly isn't your main defense, and it might not necessarily be the best thing you have, either.

It's also not the most OP thing you have, by itself. But as I said, it's the combination of a lot of various things that make enfs OP. NR + lots of HP + lots of damage mitigation + high runspeed + ability to avoid / quickly get out of CC makes enf defense OP.

NR isn't your main or best defense, your defense is a combination of a lot of good little things that adds up to one big great thing. So fight to avoid getting nerfed in a particular way, I could care less, but some things have got to go for the combination of things to be broken up a bit or enfs will always be OP.

edit: also, run speed is soft capped, it still makes a difference to have more than 2500 RS, just not as much of a difference--and one of the key things about enfs is that you always have that RS cap, where other fast professions have to contend more with snares.

This is the enforcer telling the crat what my best defense is, it is Nano Resist. In mass pvp our max health is a great asset, but in most situations Nano Resist dominates. Your profession may be at a disadvantage against enfs, but that should not be clouding your perception of what happens.

If you take one advantage away, you can suddenly make enforcers incredibly weak. Reduce our runspeed, we will never catch another player as everyone kites us. Reduce our max health by half, and suddenly we are getting alphad like engineers without spec blockers. Remove our CC removal and we become perma-rooted and snared, pretty much like my shade and trust me its bad. (btw how many professions, including crats, can remove/resist/or are practically immune to CC tools?)

So that leaves the NR. Without the level of NR we have, and the fact that enforcers can never make use of Notum Repulsor at 220, we would be highlly succeptible to CC tools, debuffs and nukes that can shut down an enforcer. Enforcers are a caster profession that relies on a melee based alpha, which means we can be crippled in a lot of areas. Our high NR helps to prevent that which prevents us from killing you. Besides, if you don't think an easy-to-root enf is not an easy kill, I'd love to show you what my 30 agent does to 49 enfs with 5000 health and the noob island root.

This is currently, and after the balance it will be different, but we are arguing about the current situation. Enforcers do need NR. We do not have enough passive evades, defenses or extra stats to contend with debuffs very well, unless we run away.



For runspeed, it really is not that hard to understand real game pvp I hope. Even if I had 5000 runspeed on my enforcer it is very very difficult to catch someone who wants to run away, this is no different than someone trying to stop an enforcer. Bringing up a .0001 fraction of a speed benefit over another profession is irrelevent as long as my ability to hit someone relies on being in a range I cannot actually percieve visual, but is determined by the servers.

[sultryvoltron]

Anyways my point was that Nano Resist is currently enforcers main defense, where as reflects would be a secondary defense for crats after their high def. Not making sense is irrelevent, the fact is this is what enforcers were created with and it is the best thing we have even over the CC removal portion of the rage line.

That's your opinion. If FC cared about having a nano damage tank (having high defense against casting), they would create bosses that mostly nuke. Just like in any strategy game, you don't put your damage tank up against a caster. In AO, your damage tank is your damage tank because it's all just damage.

Now, calling enforcers the fastest profession makes very little sense. We are capped at RS just like half the professions at 220, the only difference is who makes best use of their speed. I think any ranged profession is understandibly "better" capped than any melee profession, while enforcers are at the top of the melee profession list because we have the best melee range and the more effective CC tools for a melee prof.

But you are the fastest profession. You only appear to run at a "capped" speed if you only push forward.

Runspeed works something like this:
You can move at a maximum of 1000 (arbitrary) meters per second in any direction. It takes 2400 runspeed to move that quickly in the forward direction. It takes something like 10000 runspeed to move that quickly strafing. When you strafe run, you get to take advantage of your superior strafe speed, and you will easily outrun people with less runspeed than you.

[Shareida]

The problem is NOT that they can have

A: insane Runspeed

B: high HD and HOT

C: Having High AAD+Coon

D: crazy AR

E: the ability to nullify any sort of CC

F: fairly high NR without perking NR

it is the FACT that they can have all of it the same time, without any drawbacks.

Most professions do have to sacrifice something to be good in something else. This does not really apply to enforcers, at least not in the extend that it should.

[Kopecz]

A list of Enforcer-Only AAD items for your consideration:

Infused Ancient Speed Preservation Unit
Dreadloch Endurance Booster - Enforcer Special
Ofab Enforcer Protective Gear
Special Edition Ofab Enforcer Helmet
Endurance 9 LE Research
Gallant Flapper Ribbon
Improved Black Clan Heavy Tank Armor
Dalja's Ring of Power
Stinging Louse

Really only the first 5 items will be used at endgame and possibly Dalja's ring too depending of setup. That totals 280 AAD (counting Dalja's Ring) that Enforcers can get from self-only gear/research.

So my question is: Where is all this extra AAD everyone thinks Enforcers have coming from? Infantry symbs that other profs can/do use? LE hud? AI armor/Jathos? All stuff that other professions can and do use.


/Discuss

[erozc]

Well, the OFAB back / helm are things that many professions would kill for, a nice (although they are rare) proc on the helm as well... And the hud item is quite nifty as well, probably a result of the "enf strike" of '07 (or whenever the coon nerf was).

[Kitesfear]

The init debuffing is just a tad too much. I don't mind that they have it, but -2600 inits on my Agent means I'm going to die to the Enf.

This must be fixed!

About Enfs :

1) Hugeee HP
2) Sadly hugee NR, Rage removing almost everything but NT roots is extremely op'd
3) Coons, Evade perks.
4) Heals
5) Very high Offense.
6) *&@$#i PvP Fear Nano with 50% NR check.
7) Extremely high RS, enfos chasing down fixers/shade = lol
8) Perks doing hugee amount of dmg, 4k-5k dmg each, chain stuns, these perks are op'd yes.
9) High AC's so dmg is capped.

1. Which helps against some profs and makes enfos die faster against some others.
2. Crats/NTs/traders/etc removing the ability to move on my shade is extremely OP'd. Doctor removing all damage but huge instant alphas is extermely OP'd. NTs removing my soldier's defense and HP is extremely OP'd. Traders removing my ability to do anything is extremely OP'd. GMs ability to kill ranged advies with a zerg is extremely OP'd. MPs removing the need to twink your nanoskills is extremely OP'd. Pointsbots removing the need to learn to raid is extremely OP'd. Yeah.
3. Coon's removed by one capping attack, the only evade perk is 200 AAD from Mutate 10. It's no DoF, barely Limber. With longer lock.
4. No, HoT from Mongo and couple of perks.
5. And not being able to break any roots etc for 24 seconds after popping that so called Very high Offense.
6. Not for enfoes only.
7. Yes.
8. You need 3 of those perks to get as much damage as an enfo does receive from one FA from any soldier nearby.
9. You're thinking of engineers.

Little too much AAD

About 100 more than the worst prof AAD-wise in the game if they'd sacrifice everything for AAD like the enfos usually do. (The amount was pulled out of my shiny OFAB hat, but it's something like that.)

The problem is NOT that they can have
A: insane Runspeed
B: high HD and HOT
C: Having High AAD+Coon
D: crazy AR
E: the ability to nullify any sort of CC
F: fairly high NR without perking NR

A: To chase down the kiters.
B: 54 from perks + research, and in mass PvP enfoes hardly use OFAB ring. That means you have more HD if you just grab ICR from a doc (provided enfo doesn't have it him/herself, of course). And a 510/tick HoT. That heals 1.2% of my enfo's HP each tick.
C: Yeah. High AAD when sacrificing everything for it, and still the 3rd worst static def of all profs in defensive setups.
D + E: Either or. (From the moment 0).
F: Everyone tends to be good at something.

Well, the OFAB back / helm are things that many professions would kill for, a nice (although they are rare) proc on the helm as well... And the hud item is quite nifty as well, probably a result of the "enf strike" of '07 (or whenever the coon nerf was).

4 professions don't have AAD in OFAB hat. Funnily enough, 3 of them are evade profs (advy, shade, fixer), and the last prof without it are soldiers.
Half the professions have AAD in OFAB backpieces. Excluding crats, compared 1 AAD to 1 evade, Mod Notucomm gives more def than any of those OFAB backs.
HUD item is nice, wether you mean Dread one or Albt one, I agree. Still, I kinda couldn't see your point.


Behold my wall o' text.

[Genie]

F: Everyone tends to be good at something.

And some just happens to be good at everything.

[sultryvoltron]

This must be fixed!

Mate, we're talking CC prof levels of debuffing from a tank profession. You don't think that's over the top?

[Drakeep]

I think more prof should be like enfo/adv/NT etc, ie their defenses aren't all out specialised, makes em polyvalent.. cut the paper/scissor aspect a bit.

[Mostadio]

some crap
/Discuss

Take all the other crap that everybody else can use. And you add the 280 to that. Then you add in highway. Then you get a rather impressive number. Don't play coy. If an AAD setup wasn't totally awesome for enforcers you wouldn't see them trying to stack on every alb hud possible.

[Kopecz]

Take all the other crap that everybody else can use. And you add the 280 to that. Then you add in highway. Then you get a rather impressive number. Don't play coy. If an AAD setup wasn't totally awesome for enforcers you wouldn't see them trying to stack on every alb hud possible.

I'm not playing coy, you're playing stupid. No where did I state that an AAD enf was a bad idea. But let's just compare some of the setups posted in siggys in just this thread alone and see what kind of AAD stat others are pulling shall we?:

Obtena's enforcer 996
Surm's advy 784, but it's an advy so who cares.
Surm's keeper 970
Surm's MA 941
Styxor's def setup NT 910
Sterva's crat 937
Gatester's enf 964

Practically everyone is capable of pulling well over 900 AAD so cut the crap m'kay? Enforcers have some of the worst evades in the game and AAD makes up for those less than stellar evades so that we can avoid being capped by every greenie soldier or AS wielding ranged prof running around in pvp these days.

[Marinegent]

So our conclusion so far is that agents can beat 1he / 1hb enfs?

How much aad and ar can agents have? Do agents have any stuns?

Not necessarily. The average enf yes. There are a few like Artani, just for example, who no matter how hard you may try, are literally impossible to beat as an agent. Why?

I don't want to hand out the secret - but i'll say he does a little more than just 5,4,3,2,1,Fight! and then spams all his perks. The guy thinks and uses his perks in a more strategic way, and cannot be beat as a result, as an agent anyways.

[Gatester]

Just to clarify, as I said it in my OP , this is my opinion as well as most everything being stated here is someones opinion and not fact.

Rage is a PVP tool, not a PVM tool. People trying to associate Rage as a tanking tool are failing at understanding its purpose. FC did not make enforcers PVP tanks, they made us PVP brutes, and to accomplish this we had to be a harder to stop than most professions. I think we can agree that Rage makes enfs quite difficult to stop.


My AAD is 1036 currently, and I have 1236 with highway. My shade reaches more than that in a defensive setup before I even start draining. Lets just say 1800 AAD on my shade after I drain. Now we include the 600 more static evades over my enforcer, the 200 from limber, the 800 from DoF, CiB perks and the -AAO debuffs that include Blur and the SP drain line. If my enforcer has such high AAD, then what does every other profession have?

Defense is used to help mitigate damage for enforcers, it is not at a level to actually work effectively. Without towers an enforcer will not even break 3000 def self buffed, most professions you encounter have over 3000 static.


My high healing takes approximately 80 seconds to fully heal my health. 1he/1hb enfs DO NOT have the same healing as a pure/single weaponline profession. Enforcers perking Manners of Mongo DO NOT have the same level of healing either. I am PVM enforcer and I just described how long it takes me to heal up.

These 1he/1hb enforcers people are complaining about do not have the same stats as other setups, we are not all at the peak of every stat all the time. Let me post a "high healing" perk setup and then a viable 1he/1hb perk setup.

1he/1hb example
high healing example

People don't realize that the things they complain about simply are not possible sometimes. The 1he/1hb setup with a ton of init debuffs has no Form of Troll HD, no FoT stuns, no Brawler stuns/debuffs, loses all of the CH healing perks hots and draw blood, and sacrifices a great deal of max health.

On that same note, enforcers cannot have Mongo Rage and Highway and +100 AR from Champion lines. Champion of Nano combat is mandatory for end game (trox) enforcers, which means if they have Mongo Rage they are either short the max health, brawling, and AAD from mutate, or they are already handicapped +100 necessary AR. People will include the AAO from an offensive research device at the same time they count the AAD+evades from a defensive research device. You cannot have everything simultaneously.


In other words, everyone has been counting our stats with items taking the same slots simultaneously, 70 SL perks, 40 AI perks, and simply things an enf cannot or will not use.



And finally Eroz, because your comment was hilarious as well Our ofab ring proc....http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267782
So while other profs get 1000 evades, or ridiculous nano regen or +1000 damage, everyone is just dieing for our 2000 heal (although I could swear its only 2x 500 heals)

[Moonbolt]

Take all the other crap that everybody else can use. And you add the 280 to that. Then you add in highway. Then you get a rather impressive number. Don't play coy. If an AAD setup wasn't totally awesome for enforcers you wouldn't see them trying to stack on every alb hud possible.

this is wrong... its not cause its zomg awesome for enfs.. its cause we have 0 other way of mitigating dmg, the coon sucks and soaks up 1 special.. not even completly soaking up 1 special.
its cause its the only way for an enf to get any kind of survivability at all.

[Gatester]

I forgot to add one more thing, the attack rating of a 1he/1hb enforcer.

1he and 1hb buffs do not stack, so when an enforcer is at maybe 3500 attack rating on his main hand, his offhand will be at about 3350. The problem currently are the def checks, but when those get fixed, our 1he/1hb buffs will be able to stack. Just something to keep in mind.

[Sterva]

On the reroll note, do you know anyone who rerolled an Enforcer due to their superior PVP prowess and stuck to playing one? I don't either.

The first person to pop to mind is this agent named Cortez.

This is the enforcer telling the crat what my best defense is, it is Nano Resist... but that should not be clouding your perception of what happens.

Uh huh, so really, when opinions don't match up with yours, it's because they are clouded and biased, and you, as an enf, are the least biased about enfs? Right.

Frankly, I can't take you or your wall of text posturing seriously. Anyone with enough experience in pvp understands the basics of why enfs are OP, and this is obviously nothing but a pay-attention-to-me thread where you've climbed up on a soap box to preemptively defend enfs from an NR nerf.

I'm over it, I've said what I came to say.

[Scottik]

Stuff

I can agree with you on some parts but comparing def of enforcer to def of shade? Are you serious? Shades are supposed to evade. The problem is enfs got pretty high aad AND high HP/NR/AR/RS. That's the point of most ppl.
Besides you got about the same static aad as my MA.
But no, I don't think enfs are OP'd.

So while other profs get 1000 evades...

Lol you mean the proc that fires only while in beacon room? I've never ever seen it fire during the fight.