What makes Enforcers OP in your opinion?

[Klod9003]

MP: 30% reflect shield, unperkable, high evade profession, spec blockers/immunity, high healing ability, nano shutdown abilities, mezz pet for rooting, infinite nano, debuff removal tools.

You forgot always capping AS hit every 11 sec, pet that can rip you apart and ability to fly.

[Obtena]

Sure, lots of other profs can. So is that aspect different? No. No it's not. However are those other profs using multiple defense tactics at the same time generally as effective as an Enfos', while maintaining a respectable AR plus a nice alpha to boot? No. The obvious exception is Advys (although they have less alpha power) but I dont think I need to elaborate on them further. Also lots of profs really hardly have access to several defensive tactics simultaneously in a viable setup fyi.

wait ... so now, enfos are OPed because they have good AR and multiple defensive tactics ...

[Klod9003]

wait ... so now, enfos are OPed because they have good AR and multiple defensive tactics ...

Actually, enfos are not OP'd, they are fairly balanced. It's other various professions that are not.

[konducta]

Profs that can perk a defense setup enforcer:

Agent: 10000 heal, 3k static def+ too much def for a prof with high killing power, 27 or 30% reflects, highest runspeed profession, CC removal tools and CC immunity, highest conceal in game, high perception to spot attackers, snare perks to assist with kiting.



Enforcers: High max health, high healing ability, too much AAD, unperkable, high NR, bio cocoon, bio rejuvination, highest runspeed profession, absorbs, CC removal tool.

Fixer: High healing ability (almost can't even bring myself to type that), immune to crits, CC immunity, CC removal tools, Debuff resistance, Debuff removal tools, roots, snares, highest runspeed profession, overpowered static def, CiB to make them immune to even Mongo Rage attacks, fear immunity.

Keeper: Too much AAD for a tanking profession, unperkable therefore OP, high healing ability, ward blocker, AAO debuffs, high max health, CC resistance, possible CC immunity, fear immunity, bio cocoon, bio rejuvination.

Martial artist: Unperkable, CiB, Stun Immunity, CC immunitty, CC removal, can perk NR1 or 2 and cast almost all nanos, can reach 4000+ nano resist, highest runspeed profession, stuns, massive init debuffs, high healing ability, immune to crits.

MP: 30% reflect shield, unperkable, high evade profession, spec blockers/immunity, high healing ability, nano shutdown abilities, mezz pet for rooting, infinite nano, debuff removal tools.

NT: NBG, NBS, damage to nano ability, absorbs, 5000 nm absorb (all NT's are nanomage right?), roots, snares, NS1 and 2, CC removal tools, infinite nano, can perk NR1 maybe 2, high NR, debuffing abilities, AOE blinds, too much evades and damage mitigation for a glass cannon.

Shade: Stun procs, init debuffs, unperkable, CiB, crit immunity, highest runspeed profession, CC removal tools, possible CC immunity, high healing ability, high concealment, nano draining abilities, AAO drains.

Soldier: 95% reflects, high healing ability (especially when they only take 5% damage), too much evades for a tanking prof, unperkable by some professions, snare proc, init debuff immunity.

Trader: BR, damage to nano ability, GTH, infinite nano, high healing ability (3rd highest Id say), massive AR reducing ability, forces opponents into OE, nanoskill removing abilities, YEEIF, roots, snares, too much AAD and evades, unperkable after draining, shutdown skills, crit reducer/immunity, CC removal tools.

Since its clearly on your mind , please go get high instead of wasting people's time having to show you that your argument(s)/reasoning is worse then someone playing AO on a dozen tabs of LSD would be.

[Autofil]

Cant belive I missed the joke he made....
Ma's have high healing ability? :O

[Notcrattey]

Shade: Stun procs, init debuffs, unperkable, CiB, crit immunity, highest runspeed profession, CC removal tools, possible CC immunity, high healing ability, high concealment, nano draining abilities, AAO drains.

Stun procs or init debuffs, not both
CC removal tools with a BIG SACRIFICE, considering our toolset centers around perks.

High healing ability? you joking? or are you talking about pvm here?

High concealment as in, anyone can max perception, get istare and see shades, got it.

Nano draining abilities that seem to really only work on agents, and other low nano regen profs.

AAO drains are nice, if they land.

Come on dude, you PLAY A TL7 SHADE.

[Gatester]

First off, for Klod those are offensive abilities, otherwise I would have discussed how OP MP offense and tigress is, especially while using zset shield and SS at the same time

@Sultry, try reading the enforcer forums and you will find out about the absorb issue.


Now, I post a lot of bull**** that overgeneralizes every profession in AO and I am suddenly on drugs Congratulations, you just understood what enforcers think of all of you posting all this information, and being wrong, but ignoring us when we try to explain why.

Everyone of those professions I described was WRONG. However, that is what everyone of us do in these forums to make a profession seem overpowered and fight for a case to nerf them. Enforcers do not have a high healing ability any more than MPs or MAs. No one is the fastest profession in AO as long as the cap forces all of us to do stupid things to avoid sync issues (QUIT with the zomg you are 1milimeter per second faster crap). CC tools are almost complete garbage in this game and almost all those defenses have a terribly easy way to work around. The point of this thread is to find the holes in defenses and offenses that need to be adjusted and discuss them, not to debate that a profession should be easy to kill and should not kill you.


I believe now will be a good time to more or less summarize individual situations in regards to complaints. Keep in mind, if the enforcer defense truly was OP then we would lose 1 on 1 fights a lot less often, there are issues but its not enough to be considered on the same level as adventurers or doctors. Also as long as enforcers rely on alphas to kill it will be difficult to convince one that they should not be allowed to kill you.

Adventurer: They can perk us, we generally cannot perk them or at least until our proc fires. They can eventually eat through our defenses, and if they were nerfed in the area of absorbs, AAD, or max health we might not actually be able to beat them. Rage has no effect on this fight.

Agent: If an agent knows the enforcer toolset, then they should only have to worry about a lucky string of all top damage from perks, SA and maybe dimach. The init debuffs have a large effect on them but enforcers can only have 2 at the same time, not all 3. The sacrifice to 5000+ max health and healing on a 1he/1hb enforcer should justify a setup that can in fact kill the agent, and the agent will not be in a position where his damage will not be enough to kill the enforcer.

Crat: Incredibly disadvantaged vs enforcers. We ignore their CC tools, we avoid their debuffs often, and their pets have few chances to make contact with us. They didn't even guarantee a win with stun procs from before. This is why I agree to making CC tools more effective vs enforcers, and would even like to see changes made to snares to at least slow down a raging enforcer. If the pets can keep in contact with us enough then I think the fights would be fair.

Doctor: The only profession that can viably argue that our total defense is OP. Although they have a strong defense too, when doctors have no way of killing an end game pvp enforocer yet we can eventually kill them there is an issue. Adjustments to stuns will be a good start, but with a possible healing nerf it might not be enough. Doctors need some tool that is effective against enfs, I suggest giving them the NT nemesis nano

Engineer: Highly debated because of skill based ability levels. An experienced and top setup engineer should have the advantage against an enforcer, although more times than not I find even my enforcer killing engies. The chain stunning is a big part of that, and the ability to kite the pets even with snares running. I need more experience with good engineers, and maybe some input from their profession to know a fair way of adjusting these fights.

Fixer: Neither prof can kill the other if we don't want to. Enforcer perks almost never land (asside from a few ofc) and fixers have a hard time capping their specials, although on occasion they do. I think both profs are guilty of kiting too much, but a standing fight against an enforcer vs a fixer is almost a guaranteed loss. Rage nerfs will increase fixer advantage against enfs, our 1he/1hb combo has nothing OP that works vs fixers, and a fixer has no problem eventually working through our defenses.

Keeper: About as even as you can get, but the fights can last too long. Rather than nerfing enforcers in this case, I would prefer Keepers gain boosts to their toolset that would offset any imbalance. Nerfing absorbs, our AAD or what little healing ability we have would make us too weak against keepers. Adjustments to rage would not effect this fight.

MA: They are immune to our stuns, most of our perks won't land, and even on the 1/10 chance slowdown can actually land, we still need Mongo Rage to possibly land perks from 3.4k+ AR. MA's have no problem taking an enforcer down.

MP: Bow MP's need massive love, shield MPs have no offense. If I stick around killing the heal pet too long then the rhiwen will start to hurt, but there is still a large gap between enfs and MPs. If a tigress MP could survive they would have the damage to kill an enforcer, a shield MP who was able to keep us immobile for long enough, and was not locked out with SS might have a chance to get through our defenses. Adjustments to the MP toolset will work better to balancing enf vs MP than a nerf to enforcers.

NT: We have Rage and actually benefit from high max health in this fight, NT's have CB, anti-alpha tools, working CC, and an effective nemesis nano. If we nerfed enforcer NR like everyone wanted, then it would be far to easy for an NT to root an enf 100% of the time and kill us without effort in every fight. NT's can weaken our high NR with a nano that may take 2 attempts to land, but after that half of our advantage is gone. When Rage gets a lockout, it should break NT roots as well, they are not the glass cannons they make you want to believe. The NT toolset is also getting major love in the future which means their offensive and defensive effectiveness seems to be increasing.

Shade: Almost always wins against enforcers, unless the enf runs away. Shade has no problem with the enforcer toolset but needs their own perks adjusted so that they can heal more easily. Enforcer defenses do not mitigate shade damage, at all.

Soldier: I think soldier vs enforcer arguments have been discussed enough. Just make sure enfs aren't forced to tank a soldier during AMS and I personally don't care. Soldiers have no problems eating through our defenses, but the AS nerf will narrow the gap.

Trader: The main reason you cannot remove enforcer NR. 1 drain, just 1, is all it takes for an enforcer to be unable to perk a trader and lose the ability to cast every end game nano. Our only saving grace is that we have about a 50% chance to resist that first drain, in which case we might be able to stun and weaken the trader enough to kill them with queued perks. Once that first drain lands though the fight is almost guaranteed to be over. Traders combination of defenses tools work far greater than enforcers, and traders will eat through our defenses. Making enforcers easier to root, drain, or debuff by traders would be terrible unless the trader toolset itself gets a nerf to make it more manageable.


Summary, high NR gives us an advantage but does not make us invincible in any fight. Rage needs a lockout and thankfully it is getting it, but CC tools will need to be adjusted as well. Enforcer stuns need adjustment and they are getting it, there is no justification for chain stunning professions in place while we queue up perks. AAD does not stop anyone from killing an enforcer, it just reduces some of the damage. A high damage alpha is justified for a profession that has no other way of killing professions. Our high max health needs to be more effective in most cases and is too much for profs like doctors, I believe it is planned to be nerfed, but hopefully made more reasonable against capping hits. Our healing ability is in the form of HoTs, and is slightly more than an MP's healing ability. It is hard enough to regain health on an enforcer without nerfing it even further.

From the looks of things, some parts need adjustment, some things are fine, and others aren't where they should be. Apart from 1 or 2 individual cases with enforcers and other professions and the crazy ability to always run away, there is nothing in the enforcer toolset that actually prevents us from dieing.

[Gatester]

OMG so many walls of text lol. I think I am done with this thread though. I do hope my fellow enforcers can see justifications in some of our nerfs, as well as at least some of you seeing how what we have currently is for the most part necessary.

Thanks for contributions from everyone, except the MAs No, none of you actually got me flustered in this thread and suprisingly we have got over 10 pages without editing or getting the thread closed lol. I can even say I have been enlightened over a few issues and I am glad things are going the way they are.




PS (I thought the 1he/1hb combo shoulda been nerfed too )

[Cryfreman]

MP: Bow MP's need massive love, shield MPs have no offense. If I stick around killing the heal pet too long then the rhiwen will start to hurt, but there is still a large gap between enfs and MPs. If a tigress MP could survive they would have the damage to kill an enforcer, a shield MP who was able to keep us immobile for long enough, and was not locked out with SS might have a chance to get through our defenses. Adjustments to the MP toolset will work better to balancing enf vs MP than a nerf to enforcers.

Yeah hard work atm for bow mp's. You can pretty much out heal pet by mongo/sit which is a finishing spit in the face for us mp's

End game Enf is just a no go for us at the moment....along with far to many other prof's.

[erozc]

I will admit, an enforcer with 3 250+ towers planted for evades and aad might just hit 2900 static. So enforcers should all be nerfed because one enforcer on the server might avoid defensive setup perks.

Seriously, who has 3k static def on their enforcer? Where are you getting this from? If you just wanna make up numbers for enfs, hell I know ranged advy with 3800 attack rating on the perks. Throw in their 28000 max health and they are impossible to kill.

Lookie here:

Without towers an enforcer will not even break 3000 def self buffed, most professions you encounter have over 3000 static.

If you don't want to spread misinformation it's a good idea to be less vague. This quote reads between the lines "Nearly 3k without towers self buffed." I don't calc IP colors and automagically formulate total numbers consisting of those and people's auno setups.

Support professions have no viable argument for perking ANY profession with weapon line perks.

It's really tough then that they have no chance of perking an enf with perks that check vs. NR either.

[lostlife]

If you don't want to spread misinformation it's a good idea to be less vague. This quote reads between the lines "Nearly 3k without towers self buffed." I don't calc IP colors and automagically formulate total numbers consisting of those and people's auno setups.

i think he included highway by accident

[Gatester]

Look If you don't want to spread misinformation it's a good idea to be less vague. This quote reads between the lines "Nearly 3k without towers self buffed." I don't calc IP colors and automagically formulate total numbers consisting of those and people's auno setups.

Eroz you really are clueless I said an enf MIGHT hit 2.9k def with 3 (Three) ql250 evades or AAD towers. Turns out when I was checking I accidently counted the vicinity modifier of a tower as a third tower.

For the comprehension handicapped: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=203025 and http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=202991

Learn to read what I said, even better look at my sig. I have almost 100% def gear and even combined scouts gloves, do I look like I have 3000 static def?

It's really tough then that they have no chance of perking an enf with perks that check vs. NR either.

Kinda goes with the "raging anti-caster with damage mitigation" thing if you ask me. Casting professions should be relying on casting to beat people shouldn't they? It isn't like a doctor is crippled because they can't alpha players.

The fact is all the toolsets need to be adjusted, and these professions simply need viable tools apart from NR based perks which you assume are whats needed by the three professions this pertains too (which is evidence of someone who needs to play these professions). When an MP or Crat has more effective pets, working CC, and maybe survival using an actual weapon, they won't need to land perks on an enforcer to kill them. Doctors, that is an issue Im unsure how to deal with, but letting them land 1 extra perk won't change anything.

You don't nerf a profession because it feels better to land everything on them and ignore how it can cripple them against others. Considering us as pvp tanks all the time, rather than a berserker, is what is causing most the problems. If FC wanted enforcers to be PVP tanks, we would have damage mitigation like soldiers and NTs do or healing like advy and doctors.

[sultryvoltron]

Kinda goes with the "raging anti-caster with damage mitigation" thing if you ask me. Casting professions should be relying on casting to beat people shouldn't they? It isn't like a doctor is crippled because they can't alpha players.

You throw that term around more than any other enf on these forums, at least from what I've seen. I'm just not buying into the whole "enf is anti-caster" motto of yours. There isn't a single good reason that enfs should have the most NR in the game, nor is there a reason for them to be immune to all CC from the profs that need to CC them.

We'll see how nano changes mess that up, but the rage lockout had better put some sort of downtime on your huge NR that never goes down. There's currently no downtime whatsoever on what you call "your best defense".

[erozc]

Eroz you really are clueless I said an enf MIGHT hit 2.9k def with 3 (Three) ql250 evades or AAD towers. Turns out when I was checking I accidently counted the vicinity modifier of a tower as a third tower.

Learn to read what I said, even better look at my sig. I have almost 100% def gear and even combined scouts gloves, do I look like I have 3000 static def?

So you calced tower vicinity modifiers into your def numbers and I'm clueless for believing them? "Will not even break 3k without towers self buffed" does not equate to "I have 2.6k self", it equates to "I am somewhere slightly short of 3k without towers self buffed".

Kinda goes with the "raging anti-caster with damage mitigation" thing if you ask me. Casting professions should be relying on casting to beat people shouldn't they? It isn't like a doctor is crippled because they can't alpha players.

And doctors would alpha enfs with the Pistol-COLI-perk alpha? The point is there are professions with NR based perks that are designed to make the life of the opponent harder, by e.g. debuffing offense or defense, lowering inits, roots, snares. These should all be ignored by enfs because they're 'anti-caster'?

The fact is all the toolsets need to be adjusted, and these professions simply need viable tools apart from NR based perks which you assume are whats needed by the three professions this pertains too (which is evidence of someone who needs to play these professions).

So viable offensive tools should be nanos instead, which, oh, check NR?

Professions with NR based perks include engineer too. Furthermore I didn't assume what's needed to beat an enf, but ignoring a big part of their toolset (perks) is quite uncalled for. If a 35k+ HP enfo is as unperkable to these guys on all their perks similarly to a current 10k-ish HP fixer, that's fine because 1) they are not worthy of perking people with weapon perks, and 2) they shouldn't perk enfs with NR based perks due to the touted enfo anti-caster role?

Somehow the tone here reminds me of this.

[Gatester]

You throw that term around more than any other enf on these forums, at least from what I've seen. I'm just not buying into the whole "enf is anti-caster" motto of yours. There isn't a single good reason that enfs should have the most NR in the game, nor is there a reason for them to be immune to all CC from the profs that need to CC them.

We'll see how nano changes mess that up, but the rage lockout had better put some sort of downtime on your huge NR that never goes down. There's currently no downtime whatsoever on what you call "your best defense".

First off, I apologize if you think I was calling you out directly as some sort of gimp with my previous agent comment. I was referring to a situation that is temporary and not happening all the time which is a poor bases for an argument.

Ive given a plethora of reasons to maintain a high level of Nano Resist on an enforcer. I think the least you could do is give a good reason why enforcers should have 2000 nano resist. "I don't like it" is not a reason. I do not like agents being unperkable by my def setup enforcer without an LE proc, kiting me non-stop, and also perking me in their defense setup. That does not mean agents should suddenly lose 500 points of evades because they have an advantage.

So you calced tower vicinity modifiers into your def numbers and I'm clueless for believing them? "Will not even break 3k without towers self buffed" does not equate to "I have 2.6k self", it equates to "I am somewhere slightly short of 3k without towers self buffed".

Someone said 3000 def, I said we can't get that much without towers, its not my job to make you read instead of looking for hidden meanings. When I say 2650-2700 static def is what an end game enforcer has, I do not mean he has 2999.999 def.

And doctors would alpha enfs with the Pistol-COLI-perk alpha? The point is there are professions with NR based perks that are designed to make the life of the opponent harder, by e.g. debuffing offense or defense, lowering inits, roots, snares. These should all be ignored by enfs because they're 'anti-caster'?

I said players, not enforcers, or is this more of you reading between the lines? Again, I have high NR, it blocks certain actions as a defensive action should, and you are upset why? What is your justification for enforcers not being allowed to avoid NR based attacks? They are too big and have too much %scale, enforcers can't be that smart in real life, they take lots of damage in raids they should take just as much in pvp....I'm assuming this is about as good as your reasons are gonna be.

You know what doesn't make a bit of sense? Why the hell do adventurers have absorbs? I think it would make more sense to remove bio shielding from mine and every adventurer before I reduce enforcer NR, and I actually pvp with my advy.

Professions with NR based perks include engineer too. Furthermore I didn't assume what's needed to beat an enf, but ignoring a big part of their toolset (perks) is quite uncalled for. If a 35k+ HP enfo is as unperkable to these guys on all their perks similarly to a current 10k-ish HP fixer, that's fine because 1) they are not worthy of perking people with weapon perks, and 2) they shouldn't perk enfs with NR based perks due to the touted enfo anti-caster role?

NR based perks should land on profs without NR defenses, this is gradeschool level common sense. What does not make sense is how you and Sterva can argue for professions like docs, crats, and MPs landing weapon based perks on my enforcer and then ignoring my NR advantage as well. I'll explain this too you as easily as I can.

My enforcer, and many others, are setup around almost 100% defense, aka a defensive setup. Artillery and infantry professions CAN perk a def setup enforcer 100% of the time, and a defensive setup can perk an enforcer as long as highway as down. This means you are, again, arguing for docs, crats, MPs, and lets say engineers.

Docs, crats, MPs, and the engineers that are not perking my DEFENSE enforcer are in DEFENSIVE setups. If one of these professions was in full offensive gear, using CC, using 80% def checking pistol perks (or pure bow AR for MP), and was perked into weapon based champoin perks then they would be in an OFFENSIVE setup. Their OFFENSIVE setups can perk my DEFENSIVE setup.


So to get back to your ridiculous demands:

A Crat, Doctor, MP, and Engineer should be able to perk an enforcer with all weapon based and NR based perks while using Defensive research device, evade gear, and combined scouts or mystical force armor. Enforcers should not avoid perks from Def setup support professions

NO

All professions have defensive advantages, NR is an enforcers and sacrificing for DEF should have some rewards. If you want to argue there is too much def gear period, then please work on that thread so every enforcer can begin bumping it.

[Humchum]

this thread is a mess!

[crattey]

Come on, Gatester is funny. He's like that Iraq information minister guy.

not to mention the fact he can sum up everything there is to know about every single profession in a single post <3

[sultryvoltron]

First off, I apologize if you think I was calling you out directly as some sort of gimp with my previous agent comment. I was referring to a situation that is temporary and not happening all the time which is a poor bases for an argument.

Ive given a plethora of reasons to maintain a high level of Nano Resist on an enforcer. I think the least you could do is give a good reason why enforcers should have 2000 nano resist. "I don't like it" is not a reason. I do not like agents being unperkable by my def setup enforcer without an LE proc, kiting me non-stop, and also perking me in their defense setup. That does not mean agents should suddenly lose 500 points of evades because they have an advantage.

I don't think that "because I get debuffed" is a good reason for an enf to have such high NR. I've tried moving away from Mimic: Doc. Under other Mimics, I really notice the ridiculousness of enf NR. Predrained, through a 90% check, I have trouble landing Divest on enfs in a maxed nanoskill setup designed around using Mimic: Trader. Perhaps (I'd say definitely) that's a problem with Agents, but I mention it because it has given me a different perspective on enf NR. Casting professions have a pretty slim chance against something like that.

Now, just for a little bit I'll buy into it. Let's say that an Enf should have high NR. Why should they have high NR 100% of the time? Other professions cannot have their defenses up 100% of the time. There is literally no downtime on rage currently. Also, from what I understand there will continue to be no downtime on the NR part of rage. The cooldown will apparently be the same as, or shorter than, the duration of rage. We're talking about a possible 1-2 second gap between the end of rage and the start of the new one, and all of this comes with no sacrifice towards the performance of the Enf.

[Questra]

Making a thread titled "What makes enfos OPed?" and expecting 10 pages of "Nothing, enfos are fine as they are" is always going to disappoint you, Gate Next time name it "Why enfos are just fine, please don't post unless you heartily agree!"

Enough discussion has already taken place about enfos at tl7.

My contribution will be about tl2, 3, and 4.

Enfs are OPed because they have higher AR, NR, PvP damage, runspeed, and HP than anyone else. They have an amazing toolset for negating CC and they have a very easy to land fear which makes most oponents easy alpha fodder. They have good healing and damage mitigation tools relative to the damage being done by others at those levels.

The only times enfs are challenged at these levels are when confronted by: MPs, who have OPed evades, and traders, who have OPed debuffs. Even then, your safest bet is to bet on the enfo.

In my opinion, there should be level locks on enf nanos which are mainly designed for PvP, which will have no or little effect on PvM. The obvious answer is Rage. Level lock Rage nanos to suitable levels. Top enfo rage should be 140+ and all the tl3 enfs casting high rages should have to settle for something much lower.

I also feel there's a need to similarly nerf parts of the trader and MP toolset at those title levels but that's another thread. Take the top lovechilds at tl2-4 down a peg or two and other profs will get a chance to breathe, which they can't hope to whatsoever currently.

[Kinkstaah]

I don't think that "because I get debuffed" is a good reason for an enf to have such high NR.

Enforcers have high NR and high Runspeed because they need it to get in range and fight an opponent.

You have to remember that back in the day, Enforcers had to actually melee people to death. This means to *stay* ontop of them. Being rooted was instant death back in the day. It still is today. But enforcers were built to beat people to death with large regular hits. They need NR and RS and Root Breakers/Anti-CC tools to perform this function.

The only reason other melee classes don't have rage, is because they have other means of breaking roots/getting into range.

Enforcer's offence is as vulnerable to debuffs as Agent defence is A large part of this defence is... getting in range and staying in range.