A different approach to GTH

[XenonDe]

Not just nano drain perks... Nano drains in general...

Point taken. I was limiting it to the traders POV and keeping nano down under the previous assumption (up there) that the nanodrain nanos wouldn't stack.

[heartless888]

just a lil note but how am i supposed to cast AMS with 800-1200 nano pool? using a nano stim is out of the question when it comes to soldier in pvp, because then we cant get out of any roots for 40s unless you got your ring ready or the new tacky etc, but i guess it isnt so bad, but i dont think it should drain the sold enough so they cant AMS, esp if you cast other drains, as much as you push for bigger debuff on NT you should go for smaller debuff on sold, where 1 AMS takes away almost 50% of our nano on some solds

[navycut]

just a lil note but how am i supposed to cast AMS with 800-1200 nano pool? using a nano stim is out of the question when it comes to soldier in pvp, because then we cant get out of any roots for 40s unless you got your ring ready or the new tacky etc, but i guess it isnt so bad, but i dont think it should drain the sold enough so they cant AMS, esp if you cast other drains, as much as you push for bigger debuff on NT you should go for smaller debuff on sold, where 1 AMS takes away almost 50% of our nano on some solds

As opposed to having no nano at all to cast your AMS as gth does right now? (not that it's wise in the first place to try to AMS in front a trader heh) With this, at least if you can't cast your top AMS, lower ones will work.

[Wrangeline]

just a lil note but how am i supposed to cast AMS with 800-1200 nano pool? using a nano stim is out of the question when it comes to soldier in pvp, because then we cant get out of any roots for 40s unless you got your ring ready or the new tacky etc, but i guess it isnt so bad, but i dont think it should drain the sold enough so they cant AMS, esp if you cast other drains, as much as you push for bigger debuff on NT you should go for smaller debuff on sold, where 1 AMS takes away almost 50% of our nano on some solds

A soldier could in this case use a low QL TMS instead of a high QL AMS. TMS isn't as good as AMS because it only gives 75% reflect and doesn't last as long but even soldiers with 0 IP in nanopool would have this as an option. Which in turn would be moot anyway because of BR. Also, skilldrains would effectively force a soldier to use low ql TMS instead of AMS anyway because of skill-requirements to cast them. This nanopool debuff would be a bit of a waste to cast on a soldier because of all the other tools we have for dealing with soldiers.

However, as I said earlier, I would also prefer that the nanopool-debuff was designed and balanced on a profession to profession basis in order to avoid it being just as devastating as GTH is atm on some professions (or become completely useless on other professions). I would ideally like all professions to be left with some limited nano-based options after being hit by this nanopool-debuff, rather than some of them having all their tools be completely removed.

Having that said though, our skill-drains are enough on most professions. GTH was introduced, apparently, to deal with the professions (like docs and NT's) that can handle being hit by a drain or two. Mostly because of the fact that no one ever runs out of nano atm. GTH was kinda.. the nemesis-nano that was put ingame to deal with that flaw in the system. Now that this flaw is perhaps being dealt with in the future patches, GTH can probably be phased out as far as I am concerned. I'd rather have our oldschool basic nanopool-drains work effectively in combination with accumulator, than to have a one-nano-fits-all like GTH.

The only other thing that GTH did for us was to make our nanobot shield at least a tiny bit useful. Nerfing GTH heavily would ruin that. This could however be fixed by making nanobot shield more effective without a huge nano-hot running and also less crippling after those first 15 seconds so that with the right tactics, we can deal with the nanopool-drain without relying on huge nano-hot from GTH.

Basically, if FC spent a little more time on the design of basic tools (everybody's nanocost, everybody's nanoregen, oldschool trader nanopool-drains, nanobot shield effectiveness and accumulator) we wouldn't need GTH for anything and everyone would be happy.

[heartless888]

hum, TMS10 uses up 1400 nano, so even if i wanted to i wouldnt be able to cast it, are you telling me you expect us to cast TMS-5-6, which not even T5 solds cast, in order to fight a silverback?

so not only will you have BR which will do something bad to us, drains which means we cant cast anything but a T5 nano and now GTH will prevent us from AMSing too?

i mean a stim will solve it but please dont tell me how TMS needs alot less nano when its still 1451 nano cost, after you mentioned the numbers 800-1200

apart from that i like the new idea but if you guys can cast a nano drain that kills the rest of the nano pool, might aswell keep GTH as it is and keep crying all over

{Edited by Anarrina: removed unfounded accusation}

[Wrangeline]

hum, TMS10 uses up 1400 nano, so even if i wanted to i wouldnt be able to cast it, are you telling me you expect us to cast TMS-5-6, which not even T5 solds cast, in order to fight a silverback?

so not only will you have BR which will do something bad to us, drains which means we cant cast anything but a T5 nano and now GTH will prevent us from AMSing too?

i mean a stim will solve it but please dont tell me how TMS needs alot less nano when its still 1451 nano cost, after you mentioned the numbers 800-1200

apart from that i like the new idea but if you guys can cast a nano drain that kills the rest of the nano pool, might aswell keep GTH as it is and keep crying all over

{removed}

Yes, I was referring to the crappy tms-5'ish nanos
And no, I don't think casting that would do the soldier any good vs a trader while BR is ingame in any way shape or form. BR would have to be removed in order for tms5ish to be of any tactical use.

The thing is though, a trader can stop a soldier from AMS'ing atm with GTH. We can also force a soldier to cast a really crappy low ql TMS with our skilldrains. We can also stop a soldier from casting AMS and TMS with the threat of BR. If the soldier do manage to cast AMS or TMS, we got BR.

So no matter how this GTH idea pans out, the soldier wont be any better or worse off than he already was. If BR gets nerfed heavily, which it probably will be, then that wont have any impact on this nanopool idea because if the soldier did AMS before the trader landed nanopool debuff, the nanopool debuff has no effect on the soldier. If the soldier haven't done AMS yet then the trader would aaaaaaallways do skilldrains instead of nanopool debuff because staying alive is more important than draining your nanopool.

[lusthorne]

hum, TMS10 uses up 1400 nano, so even if i wanted to i wouldnt be able to cast it, are you telling me you expect us to cast TMS-5-6, which not even T5 solds cast, in order to fight a silverback?

so not only will you have BR which will do something bad to us, drains which means we cant cast anything but a T5 nano and now GTH will prevent us from AMSing too?

i mean a stim will solve it but please dont tell me how TMS needs alot less nano when its still 1451 nano cost, after you mentioned the numbers 800-1200

apart from that i like the new idea but if you guys can cast a nano drain that kills the rest of the nano pool, might aswell keep GTH as it is and keep crying all over

{removed}

GTH already prevents you from using any AMS at all in theory, even if you wouldn't already avoid AMS in practice around a trader due to BR.

Further, are you going to tell me that you have absolutely no -nanocost in your setup? Taking it even further, the suggested rule of 20% for non-NT targets based on your comment about being put at 1200 nano would mean your total nanopool is 7k.

If you have 7k I'd guess you didn't put IP into nanopool, in which case this is a consequence, and in either case you would still have the opportunity to use TMS VII as opposed to not using any nano at all (not counting the current state of BR in the equation which makes it silly to ams/tms anyway).

All this in addition to the fact that you're basically crying that you couldn't use your top defense nano in this scenario irrespective of BR, in which case I say, working as intended, the debuff is SUPPOSED to impair your casting abilities, which, in the case of soldiers, largely focuses around their ability to throw up a wicked reflect. You want to use a bigger one while affected? Great, stick with a friendly trader with lend nano, or work in some -nanocost like a hardcore cpu, etc.

Again, not that it really matters given that you wouldn't ams/tms around a trader anyway.

Plus, like I said originally, the suggested numbers are not set in stone, and some have even suggested that the actual percentages differ based on each profession rather than a global non-nt target percentage.

[Saetos]

Uuuhm...

No disrespect to you or the dev team but Saetos you need to be more forward and aggressive.

No disrespect taken, bud. What helps me out as a professional improves your situation all the more.

We've seen the "quality" from the designers and the devs when it comes to GTH, it's what we've been stuck with for pushing 3 years now. This idea is sound and should be pushed in front of them for consideration now, not after they've been given chance to cook up another possibly insanely bad idea, where there's a good chance counter ideas could be coming too late because they've already patted each other on the behind on a good idea and gone to the local bar for drinks, like they did with the original.

I will mention to the Devs that this thread is active and has a solid foundation as an idea, but Wrangeline here brings up a good point:

Having that said though, our skill-drains are enough on most professions. GTH was introduced, apparently, to deal with the professions (like docs and NT's) that can handle being hit by a drain or two. Mostly because of the fact that no one ever runs out of nano atm. GTH was kinda.. the nemesis-nano that was put ingame to deal with that flaw in the system. Now that this flaw is perhaps being dealt with in the future patches, GTH can probably be phased out as far as I am concerned. I'd rather have our oldschool basic nanopool-drains work effectively in combination with accumulator, than to have a one-nano-fits-all like GTH.

[Whealer]

hum, TMS10 uses up 1400 nano, so even if i wanted to i wouldnt be able to cast it, are you telling me you expect us to cast TMS-5-6, which not even T5 solds cast, in order to fight a silverback?

so not only will you have BR which will do something bad to us, drains which means we cant cast anything but a T5 nano and now GTH will prevent us from AMSing too?

i mean a stim will solve it but please dont tell me how TMS needs alot less nano when its still 1451 nano cost, after you mentioned the numbers 800-1200

apart from that i like the new idea but if you guys can cast a nano drain that kills the rest of the nano pool, might aswell keep GTH as it is and keep crying all over

{removed}

Nothing prevents the Soldier from choosing to put IP into their Nano Pool skill thus giving them a larger nano pool and more nano to cast AMS.

[Strupstad]

Then why won't you share it with us, saetos?

Personally I love this idea, and I'd be more than happy to see GTH changed into what is proposed here.

Loads of good posts, but please contact a moderator to remove heartless' posts. It's literally just spam.

[Esproc]

I like the concept, the numbers would need looking into obviously, but still a great idea.

[Nanotehnpoir]

*looks to the sky*

Great idea and vision to GTH! Out of all of the ideas I had thought, or had read, I personally think this is the best one.

Of course, as stated, numbers would have to be looked into, and made sure that there's still a reasonable benefit from GTH to make NBS useful.

Otherwise, it's a fantastic idea!

[Strupstad]

^Either that, and castable on different targets, or keep the same lockout with the same cast times.

[schloops]

Hard to say if it would turn nicely or not, but is does have some qualities and is quite tunable, while the old gth was kind of a all or nothing nano (speaking of it's "debuff" side).

Ideally make it a gradual lowering... err I mean, not insta drop to the minimum, but loose 20% every sec or something, until the nano pool reaches it's lower bound of whatever the nano would lower it to.

Definitively well thought.

[Kazeren]

Dying, for the case of a doctor or NT, would still be better then living even with this version of GTH.

I always believed GTH was put into game to use with NBD because NBD by itself was near worthless pre-GTH. However most people see GTH as a offensive tool to combat the never running out of nano problem, which for the sake of this thread i won't go into.

So looking at it from a defensive prospective GTH as it current is and as stated in this thread, are OP, though this version much less so. If we were to make GTH a tool to use for NBD to be useful we need to change a few things.

Targets effects: ND is set to 0. Not negitive but 0 just like Disable natural healing, expect only ND. They are drained of 30-40% of their nano pool. (Would like it to be current nano pool instead of max because you could just drain someone of all their nano if they are low on it.

Traders bonus: ND is temporarily increased by 200 points. There nano pool is also increased by 30-40% of its base amount.

Duration: 15 seconds on target, and 30 seconds on trader. This should give the trader enough time to debuff/kill/run away from the target. This should also leave the trader back at full nano after using NBD the 15 extra seconds of 200 ND should be plenty to get their nano pool back to max. Only 15 seconds on the target because it shouldn't be a game ending effect. Using nano during those 15 seconds of no nano delta can drain away a good bit of nano depending on the prof and how many nanos they use. It should also make the target think of whether or not to go for the kill or to wait it out, thus possibly increasing the traders survivability.

This, i think, would allow the trader to make use of NBD and hurt the target without crippling them to such a degree it would be OP. It also has enough of an effect to be used offensively if the trader chooses to.

IBT-your wrong and flames.

Edit: To add to it it could also disable PNH as it kinda says in the discription. Not to nerf NTs ofc but their massive nano pool may not be effected enough by this version alone, not sure.

"This nano program uses the same TheftBot technology that allows traders to virtually "steal" reflects from soldiers. In this case, however, it redirects the nano-technician's attempts at humidity extraction, to the point of actually damaging the targets stored nanobots."

[lusthorne]

Dying, for the case of a doctor or NT, would still be better then living even with this version of GTH.

Ya know, I considered this as a potential argument, based largely on the comments that it would take longer to refill the nanopool than simply dying on the BS. As it turns out, I also have a simple solution for this as well: when the duration of GTH ends, you get your nanopool back, including nano.

To summarize: if hit with GTH, you would have a percentage of your normal max nano. This small percentage allows you to remain casting to a limited extent. When either the duration expires or the trader dies, you get your missing nanopool back, including the nano you lost.

This accomplishes both making GTH hurt as a debuff without being overpowered like its current state, as well as solving the problem of "well I might as well die because I'll get my nano back faster" on the BS.

A large influence on my idea for GTH is the result of not just playing a trader. I have many other toons and have experienced GTH from both points of view, including a doctors. With my idea, a doctor is still going to be able to cast a couple heals under GTH; perhaps more after factoring in -nanocost, stims, buffs, etc.

I always believed GTH was put into game to use with NBD because NBD by itself was near worthless pre-GTH. However most people see GTH as a offensive tool to combat the never running out of nano problem, which for the sake of this thread i won't go into.

So looking at it from a defensive prospective GTH as it current is and as stated in this thread, are OP, though this version much less so. If we were to make GTH a tool to use for NBD to be useful we need to change a few things.

Targets effects: ND is set to 0. Not negitive but 0 just like Disable natural healing, expect only ND. They are drained of 30-40% of their nano pool. (Would like it to be current nano pool instead of max because you could just drain someone of all their nano if they are low on it.

Traders bonus: ND is temporarily increased by 200 points. There nano pool is also increased by 30-40% of its base amount.

Duration: 15 seconds on target, and 30 seconds on trader. This should give the trader enough time to debuff/kill/run away from the target. This should also leave the trader back at full nano after using NBD the 15 extra seconds of 200 ND should be plenty to get their nano pool back to max. Only 15 seconds on the target because it shouldn't be a game ending effect. Using nano during those 15 seconds of no nano delta can drain away a good bit of nano depending on the prof and how many nanos they use. It should also make the target think of whether or not to go for the kill or to wait it out, thus possibly increasing the traders survivability.

This, i think, would allow the trader to make use of NBD and hurt the target without crippling them to such a degree it would be OP. It also has enough of an effect to be used offensively if the trader chooses to.

While it is true that GTH has some use in conjunction with NBD, I don't believe that its design was such that it was intended to be the saving grace of NBD. As I have pointed out several times in other threads, GTH does not make NBD amazing. What GTH does in conjunction with NBD is allow the trader to keep casting after that nanopool has been wiped out by DD or nanobot depletion. The tick on the current GTH buff is too slow to expect it to make NBD mitigate much more damage after the initial wipeout.

The problem with looking at wiping 40-60% of the total nanopool, even combined with zeroing out nanodelta, still leaves targets with too much nano for the debuff to be particularly effective. For a debuff to be effective, it has to have an effect. Like it or not, that effect must be unpleasant, otherwise it's not a particularly good debuff.

With my idea, targets retain a small portion of their nanopool which allows for some usage with reduced efficiency, as well as retaining nanodelta and the ability to use stims/etc to lessen the effect somewhat.

A doctor hit with it will still be able to heal, just not indefinitely. An NT hit with it can still nuke, but not as much, etc.

Also, 15 extra seconds at 200 nanodelta is a very far cry from being enough to fill up a nanopool, especially considering that if used in combination with GTH, that nanodelta is going to be invalidated by nanobot depletion anyway. Even without taking nanobot depletion into consideration, 15 seconds of 200 nanodelta is 1400 nano, 2800 for the full duration of 30s, plus whatever the traders normal nanodelta is. I dunno about you, but I have quite a bit more nano than that.

IBT-your wrong and flames.

If anyone is going to flat out say that you're wrong and/or flame you, it isn't going to be me. Discussion is a good thing. Now I'll admit I disagree with you, and I will debate with you but I'm certainly not going to troll you for expressing a well thought out point of view.

Edit: To add to it it could also disable PNH as it kinda says in the discription. Not to nerf NTs ofc but their massive nano pool may not be effected enough by this version alone, not sure.

"This nano program uses the same TheftBot technology that allows traders to virtually "steal" reflects from soldiers. In this case, however, it redirects the nano-technician's attempts at humidity extraction, to the point of actually damaging the targets stored nanobots."

I'd actually advocate that it does *not* cancel PNH as my idea sees GTH reworked as a direct nanopool theft (ie; the main idea expressed here) rather than an inverse PNH (which is basically the current implementation, albeit on steroids).

In fact, having friendly buffs such as PNH or Lend Nano could function to lessen the severity of GTH's effect for its duration; In itself an example of teamwork or at least cooperation.

[Kazeren]

I understand how your idea for GTH works. However your forgetting that not only GTH will be running on the target. Theres a very good chance that there will be drains on them as well. It's the combination of all of the nanos together that still makes your idea of GTH seem OP.

Your suppose to still have a decent amount of nano left in mine. Thats the point of it. While larger nano pools are effected more by it then smaller ones it still gives the effect of making the target think instead of facerolling their keyboard. You could even up the % to have more of an impact but I don't think its really needed when you combine it with drains and AAO/AAD debuffs.

As far as unpleasant goes, anyone depending on actively casting any nanos and having a decent chunk of there nano pool being gone is very unpleasant. With 0 nano delta it becomes even more-so. You also have other nanos that can drain nano as well.

I see where your coming from as far as still having nano left to cast heals/nukes/anything else. However you are already likely going to be casting something far less effective then your best because the chances of you being drained are already pretty good.

As far as my #'s go they were just pulled out of the air. I don't know how much of a buff a trader would need to recover from NBD.

TLDR, I still find your version of GTH still alittle over the top because of how crippling other parts of your toolset are.

[schloops]

As it turns out, I also have a simple solution for this as well: when the duration of GTH ends, you get your nanopool back, including nano.

This could be used to refill a nt nano after it used ng though ^^.

[Hacre]

This could be used to refill a nt nano after it used ng though ^^.

Why would a hostile opponent do that?

[lusthorne]

This could be used to refill a nt nano after it used ng though ^^.

If NBG is used while under the effects of this GTH, the nano being restored when it ends was already stolen.