The Reballancing

[meatybtz]

I just got done reading the Ballancing Docs for each prof as posted in the Prof Forums and all I can say to it is.. wow this will really be a new game when and if this all is done. It will bear only little resemblance to AO as it stands today.

To the topic of most peoples complaints. {edited} Some 90% of peoples complaints focus purely on compairing the changes to how things are now as far as nerf/buff. If you stop and consider ALL the changes as a whole you see a different picture emerge. So stop whining about how this or that makes you weaker or more vulnerable in TODAYS PVP.

Why? Because TODAYS PVP WILL MEAN JACK AND SQUAT by the end of all this. {edited} Also, no character has the right to be top dog in anyway. {edited}

For the Reading Impaired: AO now.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> AO Once its done. Get it? Here is more
PVP NOW--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->PVP ONCE IT IS DONE.

ANY, and I Stress, ANY comparison of future mechanics to current ones if even 3/4 of what has been revealed comes to fruition is like compairing Gluk's First Stone Wheel to a Prius. The only factor of relevance is what has been and what is now, see how far we have come.

I for one welcome our new AO Mechanics Overlords.

{Edited by Anarrina: removed all non-constructive comments, retitled thread, reduced the lines to keep the window from sideways scrolling}

[Maxisolja]

Just to jack your post a bit.

Why does everyone seem fixated on pvp issues.

The majority of people in this game only do pvm, most people (can only speak about rk2) on the forums here don't even pvp outside of duels or battle stations.

Anyone that has pvp'ed and tried to be on top before LE have probably realized that Battle station is a complete joke when it comes to a general overview of pvp.

Likewise duels are a very small area that can give massive advantage or disadvantage to the participants.

Borialis is a bit more of a real situation, however people tend to only fight when they have the complete advantage or they simply run away for good.

Tower wars don't run anymore, even when they were active at tl7 that only lasted for maybe 2 weeks and was just the typical one sided zergs.

Where is everyone getting there personal experiences from if no one is doing anything, only place I can even think of a "decent" interaction of people doing pvp is battle stations which is a very limited view. Am I just missing the massive pvp fight night memo's or something?

/person that actively does BS/Borialis/Tara/Duels and if it happened tower wars for hours a day

[meatybtz]

Aww i got modded, its a good edit though. You kept the meat and cut out the veggies.

As for Maxfix. I to, wonder. You pose a very good question.

Silent majority and Vocal Minority?

I frankly was far more interested in PVP pre LE. BS has always felt like a PVM Grind wrapped in a PVP Wrapper to act like it is something other than the same boring PVM grind just bashing players rather than hecklers.

PVP should really be the end game thing to do TBH. TO keep things interesting PVP should both matter and be something fun to do. Supposedly LE made PVP more ballanced. I dunno, to me it made it more bloated and over time with LOX, unballanced. Especially it seemed to make it.. Unfun. I am not talking any specific prof here, just in general. Maybe it was a ballance change introduced with LE maybe it was JUST battle station. But LE pretty much ended nearly all interest I had in PVP in AO.

[Kinkstaah]

{edited by Anarrina: removed offtopic portions of the post}

Also: PVP is mentioned so often because that is what class balancing in any game really revolves about. 99% of people dont care about PVM as long as they can get what they need done.

[meatybtz]

I think the 99% is a bloated number Kink. I think most people would like to do more than just get it "done". I would say the majority desires PVM to be "fun" and as "enguaging" as possible.

PVPer just talk alot

[Kinkstaah]

Gluk's stone wheel is better than a prius. Therefore your comments about how PVP will and won't be are flawed, because you're supporting PVPer comments that the new system will be worse

You need to keep in mind that "PVP whiners" project what will be. They arent complaining about now, they are complaining about future changes and the balance in those future changes.

It's why the thread exists. Noone with a brain is comparing additions to the current game, they are debating how good/bad/fair they are in the future game.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I think the 99% is a bloated number Kink. I think most people would like to do more than just get it "done". I would say the majority desires PVM to be "fun" and as "enguaging" as possible.

PVPer just talk alot

I agree. I've been hearing a lot of enfs/docs, whoever, talk a lot in the last year or two about what things were like back in the day, when it took 60 people all busting their asses to even have a remote chance at beating pande.

now? pande's just /follow q afk, imongo, imongo, Ich, ICH, etc.

The PVM encounters have got a lot lot lot easier, the ONLY exception I can think of is high TL5 ship raids, they are, honestly still quite challenging PVM fun.

I bring my ubertwinked keeper, and as a 170, I pull a tough ship. The boss is usually QL 234, and if it's a cha, it's almost a garaunteed wipe, unless I have a soldier and a very good doc.

I still live by the words a good friend of mine once said: I asked pizzled back when we were leveling in 2006 in perpetual wastelands, at level 130ish or so: why do you stay so long at each level? And he says: "I want to be the best I can, and contribute most to my team"

And that, is why I still like pvm. Because, if you actually take the time to improve your ability, understanding and your team benefits, you can have a lot of fun in pvm.

PVPer's just get crazy if they think they might be getting nerfed. read the enforcers development thread.. lol, they all think they are getting a big nerfbat; but in reality most enforcers have atrox reading ability I guess.

[Kinkstaah]

PVPer's just get crazy if they think they might be getting nerfed. read the enforcers development thread.. lol, they all think they are getting a big nerfbat; but in reality most enforcers have atrox reading ability I guess.

When you're average now, and every other class gets a boost or a nice useful tidbit, and you get a nerf, it looks very dire.

[meatybtz]

Gluk's stone wheel is better than a prius. Therefore your comments about how PVP will and won't be are flawed, because you're supporting PVPer comments that the new system will be worse

You need to keep in mind that "PVP whiners" project what will be. They arent complaining about now, they are complaining about future changes and the balance in those future changes.

It's why the thread exists. Noone with a brain is comparing additions to the current game, they are debating how good/bad/fair they are in the future game.

No, I have to dissagree fully here. They compair the future changes to their prof from the aspect of today's pvp.

They take their change and compaire to to current PVP Love Prof + That profs change == change how they see it.

The fact is EVERYONE is overlooking that:
HP will be changed
Healing Will be changed
Damage will be changed
ARs are getting changed
Perks will check differently (aka no 100% or 100% miss) meaning Def will get changed

Specific Example here is agents: They complain about AS getting a def check because honestly in todays mechanics that is a death sentance for AS. PERIOD. However if ARs and Defs are getting a sound round of reballincing nerfbatting then the removal of extreme defenses (see my crat that can achieve over 11k Def for a tiny period of time) will in fact make AS ballanced rather than the cure-all to the absolute GLUT of Defensive builds in AO at this time.

SO in essence with all the above changes we have absolutly NO reference point to how things will play out. At this time the ONLY whine that is really valid is: FC has a history of unballanced Love. I do not trust them to get it right this time. That is a fair statement due to past example and history. However that is exactly the sort of thing our new dev team is trying to make a break with. The IF is the question, as is the CAN they..

Another EX: Enfo and HP nerf. Good PVP enfos can take on 5-6 people on BS and survive and kill.... al the PVM encouters are Q-AFK these days. The whole GLUT of UBER that FC over the years has let trickle into the game has absolutly unballanced and skewed the whole damn design of the game. Right now FC is talking about taking a nerfbat to many things that are near and dear to peoples hearts because they make the prof so powerful. Far more powerful than they ever were intended to be for fun and enjoyable game play.

[Maxisolja]

FC has a history of unballanced Love. I do not trust them to get it right this time. That is a fair statement due to past example and history. However that is exactly the sort of thing our new dev team is trying to make a break with. The IF is the question, as is the CAN they.

I think this mostly sums up peoples hesitation towards reballancing.

There is a real possibility that this will solve many many problems and keep the game a float or even revive it, however if not done correctly it may finish the game off for good.

Pretty much everyone will agree that the current implementation of the game is flawed in many ways. It looks as though Funcom has realized this and decided to take the chance to remake or break the game because if they did nothing it would eventually fade anyways.

The only catch is that there is a history especially within the last few years that changes however they ended up being thought of and implemented, have caused people not to trust there decisions.

It also doesn't help that there is a reluctance to take a step back in the game if there was a mistake made and fix it even though it was a bad decision or implemented in the wrong way. This balancing effort is there first real attempt at confronting that but we have no history to base how we think it will turn out.

Another thing I don't like is when they try to sell us information that we perceive as false.

For example the claim that AO is doing just as good now as it has in the past, even though there is a very apparent lack of population in general. One explanation is that players are more spread out at endgame, but this would not explain the lack of froobs/leveling players as these areas have not developed in a way which would have spread them out. The profit margin may have been maintained, but you cant deny a shortage of players.

[erozc]

It's actually interesting that we were given the perk change documentation so early in the balancing process so we could all whine "wah wah my profession will be unable to perk profession X in Y setup with Z running" and such, yet now it's all moot since AR and defense ratios will be greatly adjusted, etc. Seems like it's all in vain so far.

[Genele]

Thank you for the Overlord title.

As a comment to the discussion above is that it is important to see the game as a whole. If you only focus on how your own profession will work in the future and how everyone else works today, it will be impossible to see how powerful you will be compared to everyone else in the future.

It's actually interesting that we were given the perk change documentation so early in the balancing process so we could all whine "wah wah my profession will be unable to perk profession X in Y setup with Z running" and such, yet now it's all moot since AR and defense ratios will be greatly adjusted, etc. Seems like it's all in vain so far.

Nothing is in vain, all the negative and positive feedback based on just the new perk system also contains valid points or feedback that we can use to balance the game better in the future.

[Omutb]

As a comment to the discussion above is that it is important to see the game as a whole. If you only focus on how your own profession will work in the future and how everyone else works today, it will be impossible to see how powerful you will be compared to everyone else in the future.

I think this is the single biggest problem.

After the Professionals were allowed to post their info, people are still only seeing their profession compared to other current professions.

Once things are more obvious, ie on Testlive, I think people should understand things a little better.

[Etyris]

Another EX: Enfo and HP nerf. Good PVP enfos can take on 5-6 people on BS and survive and kill....

No they can't, and this is exactly the kind of post that deters devs from taking these forums seriously.

[meatybtz]

YES, they can.

It takes the right setup. And you need your opponents to not be cream of the crop. It is actually quite easy to get an enf into a major tank PVP mode.

Just because you cant doesnt mean they cannot. It has been done w/o exploiting. They just happen to be the best enfos in game. I know plenty more who could tank 2-3 w/o breaking a sweat and 4-5ish average players were needed for a kill.

You can always say X setup on Y prof in Z situation can kill such an enf one on one. But the statement is a general one.. not a specific one. Enfs tank well in PVP setup right and can usually wade in to the biggest furballs and run away when they start having it turn against them. Usually after killing 2-3 people.

Enfs are pretty well off atm, excepting certain issues with sync. God I hated that on my enf when he did TL7 BS before I remade him omni. Hell at TL5 BS pre LOX he easily was able to tank 2-3 or more average players. In one case I took on 3 average players killed all 3 and ran off feeling dandy, and I was no twink. I had 23K HP but was 2hb and had the kill power of a GNAT. At 213 even with the older sync issues I was able to kill 220 soldiers as long as they didnt have TMS up.. by then I was 2he obviously. LOX changed things though and I watch enfos now swapping between piercing/2he/1hb/RE as part of the alpha to get all the perks and an Aimed shot. Some have 2he/1hb/1he/RE these days for even more kill power.

I would like to see:
1. The need of such swaps to win fights taken out of game.
2. My Crats Evades need some nerfage and some buffage at the same time (more duration lower max ammount).
3. Tons of other things already listed in the Prof Forums.

[Omutb]

YES, they can.

It takes the right setup. And you need your opponents to not be cream of the crop. It is actually quite easy to get an enf into a major tank PVP mode.

Just because you cant doesnt mean they cannot.

And this is the other problem.

People equate the best items with victory, and forget there is skill involved in when you execute various functions, items do not make an expert.

Those that are able to do things others think are impossible are more than likely in the minority.

But this is how it should be, if every Enf was able to tank 5 people on the BS, something would be wrong.

[meatybtz]

And this is the other problem.

People equate the best items with victory, and forget there is skill involved in when you execute various functions, items do not make an expert.

Those that are able to do things others think are impossible are more than likely in the minority.

But this is how it should be, if every Enf was able to tank 5 people on the BS, something would be wrong.

I can fully stand behind everything you said

[PingBong]

since obviously all further discussion on the topic of future pvp balance is useless lets delete all balance threads and this subforum too

i think captain obvious missed the point

[Omutb]

I can fully stand behind everything you said

No no, you stand in front of me please.

I prefer to have something between me and incoming projectiles.

[Etyris]

And you need your opponents to not be cream of the crop. It is actually quite easy to get an enf into a major tank PVP mode.

Um welcome to AO? Is this your first day?

What's your point? That enfs can survive against gimps? We already knew that.. it's the same way across many other profs. I am geared well as an enf, put 5 end game soldiers on an enf and see how long he lasts, same with NTs or anyone who can immobilize an enf. They have to run like hell in order to survive, even that level of survival is more due to client desync than anything else. I don't see anyone complaining about soldiers with AMS tanking 5 keepers at once.

Show me a fraps of any enf taking on 5 properly geared, pvp specced 220s and not dying horribly or running for his life.