Purpose and Function: Damage Professions

[-XeI20-]

Ok. So for the sake of being thorough, and fair, I've asked an orgmate with a good crat to kill an inf dragon dyna so I could parse his dmg. The result, was what I expected, and thus no surprise to me. It confirms the information I've been relaying. This information is no longer in dispute as far as I'm concerned. This is more especially so due to what I'm going relay to you all presently.

This is what I normally run around in. A balance between dmg and evades. A setup which can allow me to OD an enfs taunts with effort, or allow him to tank if I show restraint to some degree. I can achieve 255k dpm with this setup.


Now, my orgmates crat is in an evade setup. I kid you not, an evades setup. A setup with a miy's helm, beast legs, and with some other gear which balances dmg and evades relatively well, no ai armor, with hud being dominately evades oriented. No VTS or other significant dmg huds.

His dpm, 254k.

"Same old mantra about how Shades are damage dealers and should be the top damage dealers in any setup"

So ya. Point made I believe. When's my damage increase coming? Next patch maybe? One can hope.

[erozc]

I dmg things to death with almighty calms and co. Try to make sense yourself next time. Carlo, ninja and personal damage alone if you aren't set for damage whoring will never OD shade.

Look, you're a great crat and if anything teaming with you has only shown how much easier PvM becomes when teaming a crat, depending on encounter the profession is of same usefulness as doc. Of course crat damage will vary highly depending if they use pistols or e.g. remodulator, but the pet damage should still be the same for both.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=148322

I would like to see someone OD that honestly. Viable? Sure, you cannot tank or solo well but the option for ridiculous damage is there.

You did forget the suicide spirit from that setup though which I at least used to see many DD shades running around with, though that may have changed with alphas and comparatively harder swapping for some people.

On shades, the skill drains and init debuff procs on a single mob can actually be very useful but will under no situations rival crat toolset for making things easier. It's a valid question, so what if the damage is comparable between the two professions?

[SSK]

For the record I, in my PvM setup (before I moved to PvP with Ithaka), always ODed shades since... well.. shades were put ingame, so it's hard to tell if shades were meant to be so better DD

Shades solo as good as crats if they want to, they are always welcome to teams (just abit less than crats), so this big noise is just about crats dealing similar amounts of dmg/min? Give me a break, shades doesn't need more damage, they need to be more balanced.

[Gatester]

I forgot a few things in mine Eroz Thanks for catching that one though, id have to see if the loss of piercing skill would be worth it, I also have the aquarius huds I should add as well.

-XeI20-, I am sorry to say it but 255k damage for that sort of setup is not bad. You have decent crit chance sure, but you are short 400 damage add (I noticed you did not include perks so im figuring in TR), 19% more crit chance, and probly a good bit of piercing skill without using offensive spirits. So you are doing about 85k more damage than my enforcer (+550 damage add, 23% crit chance I think?) while using a defensive setup.

Until you show a top DDers stacking there is no basis for your complaints yet. Also that crat will not gain much more DPM by throwing on gear unless he makes HUGE sacrifices for FA or something, however shade DD output will definately make leaps foward with the proper gear. NT's and MA's are the same way, in fact NT's should be the top DD with a little luck on DM.

[Hacre]

Ok. So for the sake of being thorough, and fair, I've asked an orgmate with a good crat to kill an inf dragon dyna so I could parse his dmg. The result, was what I expected, and thus no surprise to me. It confirms the information I've been relaying. This information is no longer in dispute as far as I'm concerned. This is more especially so due to what I'm going relay to you all presently.

This is what I normally run around in. A balance between dmg and evades. A setup which can allow me to OD an enfs taunts with effort, or allow him to tank if I show restraint to some degree. I can achieve 255k dpm with this setup.


Now, my orgmates crat is in an evade setup. I kid you not, an evades setup. A setup with a miy's helm, beast legs, and with some other gear which balances dmg and evades relatively well, no ai armor, with hud being dominately evades oriented. No VTS or other significant dmg huds.

His dpm, 254k.

"Same old mantra about how Shades are damage dealers and should be the top damage dealers in any setup"

So ya. Point made I believe. When's my damage increase coming? Next patch maybe? One can hope.

Has it ever occurred to you, that Pet Professions are intended to be damage dealers?

That Crat you're whining about won't be ODing any decent Shades, since decent Shades easily do more than ~250k DPM.

All the Crat PvM whining in this thread is ridiculous. I bet none of you avoid inviting Crats to your raids.

Besides, PvM, who cares who's good at what? The problem is other professions being left behind, not the magic 4 we have currently, Enfs, Docs, Soldiers, Crats (maybe Keepers if talking about 12 man).

I'd rather see the other 10 get a decent boost or be desirable for other reasons. Who has seriously teamed a Trader in PvM lately because they actually needed one as opposed to filling out a spot in the team?

This me me me me I want I want I want nerf others please to boost me attitude is getting old, seriously.

[keitelo]

This me me me me I want I want I want nerf others please to boost me attitude is getting old, seriously.

Well it's bound to happen in a game with such huge balance problems.

And for crats yes they are WAY too OPed for pvm, a support prof xp totem best soloers by far with charms, crowd control second to none.
And guess what FC gave them? a AoE stun proc lolz.
Another exemple of FC failure at balancing.
Crat aren't a support prof they became godlike like advy at least for pvm, and pvp with the lol stuns that hopefully were removed...

On the other hand shades were good for pvm(that according to you no one cares about) were AWFUL for years in pvp.What we got? half combined spirits with half the stats of any other prof, most of ofab is dead useless compared to again what many profs got.

I can laugh at a crat or an adv moaning about his prof but a shade no.
Shades are the doomed and forgotten prof of Anarchy Online.

ALL profs got many boosts, shades only got some really minors ones that still let them far beyond any other at pvp and pvm wise they got nothing special anymore except you hurt your wrist when crats use /pet attack and afk beer...

[-XeI20-]

I find it particularly amusing that the primary counter to the logical reasons I'm placing forth, along with hard data, is that it must be me who is failing to perform well as a Shade. What are you comparing my efforts to heh?

Happen to know the setup that Shade was in? Did they perk for further dd? Did they swap to duel aruls? Were they able to use Backstab? Did they have 12man/db buffs or soldier/keeper auras running? I assure you that within the setup I posted 255k dpm is what's going to be the general max for dmg output. I could go for more dmg but I see no point in doing so when I'm already stealing agg away from enfos with ease. I believe maintaining a semi-defensive focus is prudent, when I'm the one with agg all the time. I believe the doc's are thankful I do this.

Furthermore, our damage tends to vary. Our perk damage is not a static thing. Our dpm has a good bit to do with luck. Sometimes hecatomb hits for 6k sometimes for 14k. The same applies to TR perks as well. My dpm varies from 245k-280k within that setup. 255k is a good stop point of average to me seeing as damage typically tends to be between 245-270k.

Ok now, so I've defended my personal prowess as a Shade. Moving on...

So, now it's contended that pet profs are meant to be damage dealers? That instead Shades, whose toolset has a primary focus on just dealing damage, need not be the best damage dealers but have other parts of our toolset developed further. I agree to an extent. Our toolset could be adapted to make us more desired in teams. The TR temp buffs could become a team aura upon use. I see little else that could be modified to be beneficial to our team contribution. Why is there so little to change? Perhaps it's because our toolsets primary focus is, and always has been, to deal damage.

Crats, imo, have more then enough useful tools. So much so is this true that not only are they useful but viewed as necessary for a great deal of content. I find it odd that I'm the one being called self centered by members of the crat community when I'm asking for my prof to have it's primary function to be just as extraordinary and desired as their primary function is. Furthermore this improvement to Shades and Nts would in no way intrude upon the toolset crats posses which is not only in-demand but, again, viewed as necessary to do content.

So now it's my turn to contemplate selfishness. To ask myself which party is being the most self serving on this matter. As a Shade my toolset is primarily to do damage. My dps is noticeable but still it is not above and beyond all others. My suggestion would place the prof above and beyond crats. Crats have a very useful toolset beyond their damage. A toolset so useful noone I've encountered even bothered to care whether or not a crat does high end dmg when teaming them. Is it not more selfish to deny a prof whose primary focus is damage, the capability to deal far more damage then you when your primary toolset is not to deal damage? Yet not only is it not to deal damage, but it is in far more demand then the toolset of dealing damage.

So, me, selfish? A little bit. But when a hypocrite is pointing this out, it being pointed out does not serve their purpose. It serves mine.

[Notcrattey]

Who has seriously teamed a Trader in PvM lately because they actually needed one as opposed to filling out a spot in the team?

Trader has a very good toolset in pvm, it's just because of certain (broken) game mechanics are they not useful in today's PVM (like infinite nano!)

[MassDebater]

I never asked for engis to do less damage. I asked for Shades and Nts to do more damage then them. With ma's able to do about as much as them. I in no way want engis to do less. That doesn't really serve any purpose.

With a few tweaks Shades could gain the ability to OD even the best engis at the expense of being able to tank, and stun/init debuff. It's not as if I'm asking you give up your reflects to have the damage you do. I'm not asking that. Instead I'm asking Shades have the option to do exactly that. Give up a great deal of our defenses in exchange for a substantial damage increase. I'm thinking on the order of a -600ish defensive loss which includes DoF.

And then engineers are less wanted than shades/nts/ma because they do less damage


AND have a worse toolset....awesome

[McKnuckleSamwich]

seems to me shades ought to have a couple detaunt perks, that would enable them to really push damage, but detaunt to let the enf provide tanking still?

but it's no help to have to ubertweak your setup for damage, then get agg for 0.5 seconds and hit in two hits if you mistime your detaunts... right?

In other words, as a shade if you ubertweak for DD, you can't survive solo pvm, nor can you survive PVP.

well, I dunno, MA's have the same problems.

[-XeI20-]

And then engineers are less wanted than shades/nts/ma because they do less damage


AND have a worse toolset....awesome

I've always, and so have the players I've teamed with, teamed engis due to their reflects. This is because there is no guarantee that engi on lft will be setup to do more damage then a Shade or NT. That being said, it is by no means a reason to bump engis down the totem pole of achieving high dpm. What is then? I believe that the toolset engis posses will be much easier to improve upon then the ones Shades have at their disposal. Warps could be reworked. Your blinds could as well. Perhaps an AoE stun on your pets? As I pointed out earlier, Shades were designed with one function in mind and as such there's little else to adapt within their toolset to make up for our damage not being top notch.

[MassDebater]

I've always, and so have the players I've teamed with, teamed engis due to their reflects. This is because there is no guarantee that engi on lft will be setup to do more damage then a Shade or NT. That being said, it is by no means a reason to bump engis down the totem pole of achieving high dpm. What is then? I believe that the toolset engis posses will be much easier to improve upon then the ones Shades have at their disposal. Warps could be reworked. Your blinds could as well. Perhaps an AoE stun on your pets? As I pointed out earlier, Shades were designed with one function in mind and as such there's little else to adapt within their toolset to make up for our damage not being top notch.

And if you have a soldier?

[-XeI20-]

And if you have a soldier?

We don't get an engi. Your point? I already stated that your toolset can be improved in other areas while a Shades really has nowhere else to go. That there is no guarantee that that engi on lft will be a higher dpm then a Shade should be clue enough what is and is not your toolsets prime focus. Your tools need updating so that they are once more fully functional, as do mine.

[Amickson]

From all so called DD professions shades and nt's are still supreme. I was on some pande raids (org/coop, not some zerg), where certain shades was miles ahead in dmg. Not possible to od them with ma/sol/eng. It all depends on setup and skill of a shade, I know it's much harder for them that for others, but the reward is there.

[-XeI20-]

The only true damage engis I've known of used shen sticks or a dshark. Recall there's some burger pistol they can get a 10s fa on as well. Furthermore, it's not about being od'd it's about our damage not being considerably higher than others. I've seen envy soldiers doing 240k dpm. That's very close to my Shades 255k dpm.

[Philty]

The only true damage engis I've known of used shen sticks or a dshark. Recall there's some burger pistol they can get a 10s fa on as well. Furthermore, it's not about being od'd it's about our damage not being considerably higher than others. I've seen envy soldiers doing 240k dpm. That's very close to my Shades 255k dpm.

I will repeat it once more. Try harder.

Good shade can od everyone ingame. Your problem of not being able to push your mediocore character to be top dd is just .... your problem. Not problem of shades being poor in dd. And as I know shades were boosted HUGELY in damage area in comparison with the past by changes of their chain perks (behind changes and switching targets). Have you seen shades "dancing" lately?

And one more thing. You look on a damage things with great simplification. Damage dealt to targets depends on many aspects. In every environment excels some particular type of dealing damage. You have to beat beast or ai gen? Shade or MA has to win as they can use his toolset fully and unload all damage they have. You have city ai? NT has best oportunity to deal most damage with area nukes to fast dropping targets, which prevents other to unload their damage fully. You have sector 42, pet professions will be winners as they can unload all damage they can deal effectively there - better than NTs and melee professions. You have one gray shiz? Send there soldier with some FAs.
Get some perspective and whine less.

[-XeI20-]

I will repeat it once more. Try harder.

Good shade can od everyone ingame. Your problem of not being able to push your mediocore character to be top dd is just .... your problem. Not problem of shades being poor in dd. And as I know shades were boosted HUGELY in damage area in comparison with the past by changes of their chain perks (behind changes and switching targets). Have you seen shades "dancing" lately?

I've stated this multiple times, the 255k dpm I achieve within that setup is, within that setup. I voiced my reasoning for that setup and the reasoning is sound. I draw agg off of any tank in it and there is no reason whatsoever to gain more damage at a sacrifice of survivability when I'm tanking everything. Docs don't want tanks which break easy. There is no amount of trying harder which can push more dpm then I can out of that setup. It's not about being lazy or not pushing my character. It's about having found an optimal setup which benefits my team the most.

That said, I am currently finishing my all out damage setup. Having an all out damage setup interests me even though it will be somewhat impractical for doing what it will inevitably force me to always do, tank. However, I am fully confident that eventually FC will get around to giving us shades detaunts and am also hoping more damage will come along with that upgrade.

Yet I can see you, and others, are not satisfied with my rough estimation of average dpm within that gear. Frankly neither am I. In a few hours I'll go run several parses of killing some inf dragon dynas and then average that to give a more accurate average dpm.

And one more thing. You look on a damage things with great simplification. Damage dealt to targets depends on many aspects. In every environment excels some particular type of dealing damage. You have to beat beast or ai gen? Shade or MA has to win as they can use his toolset fully and unload all damage they have. You have city ai? NT has best oportunity to deal most damage with area nukes to fast dropping targets, which prevents other to unload their damage fully. You have sector 42, pet professions will be winners as they can unload all damage they can deal effectively there - better than NTs and melee professions. You have one gray shiz? Send there soldier with some FAs.
Get some perspective and whine less.

Yes, damage differs during different situations. And so to be fair in my generalization I focused on what each prof can give in raw damage within the field Shades excel at. High AC mobs with alot of HP so that our dots maximize in damage. A fair generalization I would think. Considering that is the field we excel in and in which almost any prof can maximize their damage potential.

Edit: Also and ironically enough.

Good shade can od everyone ingame.

Furthermore, it's not about being od'd it's about our damage not being considerably higher than others.

[Parranoid1]

im gonna back up XeI20 on the damage here, both me and org mate have shades (u can see my equip in sig, not exactly maxed out, but not terrible, changes like xan weap and improved spirits is about all that could make it a lil better). i have gone add damage equip, my friend went crit setup. we did a damage dump test on unicorns at 210bs (epeen flexing ofc) and they dropped almost at the same time (think about 8 secs between them) and i hit 262,XXX my friend hit 262k also, i believe i won by maybe 100 damage perk min or w/e, so it was a tiny margin.

so 1 on 1, pushing max damage, dimach, every consievable perk thats wat was hit.
you may say that in raids and watnot you can hit SA and BS, but you also lose time in between mobs and auction times. so all out on the one mob we were maxing out at just over 260k dpm in 2 seperate equips

[Philty]

Edit: Also and ironically enough.

And what? Why would mediocore shade should be better than soldier or ma or eng in dd setup? Why? These professions are not tanks, healers, not cc. They are just dd in pvm and they all want to be good at it. But only shade lack some sensible buffs for others. What a pity. Ask for some instead of whining about your poor damage.

[Parranoid1]

And what? Why would mediocore shade should be better than soldier or ma or eng in dd setup? Why? These professions are not tanks, healers, not cc. They are just dd in pvm and they all want to be good at it. But only shade lack some sensible buffs for others. What a pity. Ask for some instead of whining about your poor damage.

he didnt say that... he said in his current setup, which is quite nice, he gets almost OD'ed by a crat in average gear.