PvP range fix?

[Lazy]

If you want to have a discussion about support/pockets, that's fine as well. I'm assuming by interference, you're referring to the fact that a 126 can support 100ish twinks. Those 100ish twinks can hit much of the level range that can hit a level 100 CT. I don't find that unreasonable. You have to make up your raidforce to deal with the threats you expect/anticipate to encounter and every scenario is different. That's why NW isn't just another stupid zerg vs. zerg PVP encounter like alot of other games. These strategic elements make NW it's own separate flavour of PVP and adds a level of interest and considerations that appeals at a higher level than what you get from duels or BS. There are ways to counter the NW strategies in the game. People just need to use them instead of asking FC to remove them so they don't have to think.

i bolded the part that i disagree with, because these strategic elements you speak of mean we're still have the problem of laddering. those 126 supports get hit by 150's, the 150's by 170's the 170's by 207's and we're back at square one with a bunch of tl7's standing in a tl3 field.

[Obtena]

i bolded the part that i disagree with, because these strategic elements you speak of mean we're still have the problem of laddering. those 126 supports get hit by 150's, the 150's by 170's the 170's by 207's and we're back at square one with a bunch of tl7's standing in a tl3 field.

That's not a problem with laddering, it's a problem with people not balancing their raidforce with the the right mix of twink levels. Of course you can concoct a scenario where you have level 100ish twinks decimated by 126 twinks. That's just terrible organization. Don't do that.

[Obtena]

And Obtena, skill of the player wins wars, not only numbers ...

Thanks for confirming what I said (and that you aren't paying attention to what I'm posting). That's why laddering is a viable strategy to win NW. There is more to winning than just skills in twinking and playing a character. There is also skills in organization and strategy. The people that use ALL those skills win.

If you actually knew me,Obtena, you'd know how my skill helped clans win alot of tl5 fields. Perk all my defenses, move in alone, kill the doc and either run out or die. Immediately after the doc died, the clan raid force went in and cleaned up, even tho omnis were twice as many. ...

That's nice but I don't see how your heroic moment contradicts anything I have said. If you truly believe skills > anything else, you wouldn't have a problem with laddering because being skilled in the elements that make a good NW player can be used to counter laddering.

[Psikie]

what magic level do you twink for to hit 100 ct without interference from 126 twinks?

lvl 90.

I'll go one further and state when my jobe pistol sol was lvl 90 I easily dropped ql100 towers solo and stood reasonable chance vs 100-110 toons.

[Lazy]

lvl 90.

I'll go one further and state when my jobe pistol sol was lvl 90 I easily dropped ql100 towers solo and stood reasonable chance vs 100-110 toons.

90 can be hit by 114s which can be healed by 126's. try again.

[Psikie]

90 can be hit by 114s which can be healed by 126's. try again.

You are correct sir but the question was what lvl to twink to avoid 126's, i dont know many people to stop at 114 for twinking- actually any.

[Contra]

This is all extremely stupid. I'll repet my question from the previous post:
What's the point of rolling twinks for various TLs if all wars, from tl1 to tl7 are fought between tl7 people?
Obtena, rolling a 207 to kill 165 is nowhere near "skill". It's a cheap abuse of the level range, nothing more, and a very lame one too. Lame. Like you.

The skills of organization and strategy are already there at all TLs. Why would you want to interfeer in that with your tl7? Let tl3 wars be fought by tl3 people, not by 5 ranges, not by armies of 220s.

[Psikie]

I will give you the point that yea it sucks getting smashed by someone at upper limits of your pvp range at towers. I agree with that. Although I will not agree that it is a cheap tactic. Thats like saying turrets are cheap defensive tools for 1 pay account toon to hold off 12 froobs/sloobs without mechs from AI.

I could be wrong but what I got from Obtena's posts was that if you know the tl-pvp lvl ranges anyone can manipulate them. Best way to do that would be to take a team at the lower end like lvl 12 twinks with battlerods/frost scythes vs lvl 15 towers that has lvl 19-20 defenders. Oopsie attackers can kill tower with no defenders able to touch them. Just have to use your brain and some team tactics to turn the situation in your favor.

[Obtena]

What's the point of rolling twinks for various TLs if all wars, from tl1 to tl7 are fought between tl7 people?

Because TL7 can't hit anything but a TL7 towers. Again, you're NOT differentiating between the people that want to WIN NW and the people that just want to PVP at NW. You NEED to bring yourself to that level of understanding. The line of thinking between both of those people can be VERY opposite. Without rehashing too much RK2 history, I think we all know how Bruce, et. al .. operated the first time omni were taken to 0% XP. It wasn't based on searching out PVP at NW and 'playing fair'. It was based on AVOIDING PVP and demotivation and it worked.

The skills of organization and strategy are already there at all TLs.

Sure, now they just have to use those skills. There is already many instances where people that have and use those skills win when they are at a disadvantage. Psikie is right on the money. You have to respond in a smart way to what your enemy is doing.

[lonewolf2k7]

I agree with this. But also the feeling you get when a 174 mp twink beats a 218 keeper is pretty epic haha (Before the time Bor changed to a zerg fest)

but yeh the levels atm are very stupid but also people get very annoyed (214 twinks) but meh screw them! they had there fun for long enough!

[Gunfytr]

Some people go to PVP, some people go to simply own towers through the easiest means possible. .

I wondered if I was the only one to catch this.

Its all about motives. There are basically 2 types of ppl that go to ttl5 TW. Those that wish to fight other ttl 5s, and those who wish to own ttl 5 towers. The 2 have completely different motives, and go about getting those motives fulfilled the best, most efficient way possible. The 2 will never agree on a rules change, as now it favors ttl 5 tower "owners". Changing it will make their job harder. Making the range tighter makes it harder to get/keep the towers, as they rolf stomp the true ttl 5s.

This discussion reminds me of American politics, where Republicans and Democrats try to convince the other they are wrong. And equally fruitless.

How about, the only people who can pvp in the towerfield are the people who are in the level range tto attack a tower. The gas has no effect for anyone below or above and they cannot buff or heal players in the gas.

Then adjust pvp ranges accordinly.

Or, the what has been suggested many times before .... people can only participate in towers if they are within +/-1 TL of the towers, IE only Tl4,5,6 can participate in tl5. I see no reason why not.

This, however, I do like.

[n3oheals]

Indeed a simple solution would be to either limit tower fields or all PvP ranges to +/- 1 TL. This means TL5 will be open to TL6 and thus TL7 is able to keep those out and part of the tactic remains but you wont'be seeing 1 TL7 kill a full team of TL5 and thus ruining the war.

[Obtena]

You're kidding yourself if you think that 'within 1 TL' solution isn't going to be the same situation we have now. There are lots of people level 200 BS twinks and they will show up to TL5 NW pocketed by 220's. That 'solution' solves nothing. In fact, it makes the current situation much worse ... there are WAY more level 200 twinks than there are 207/214 and I'm betting they can't wait to hit the notum fields after being relegated to BS for so long. 207/214 twinks are less numerous because they are single purpose but implement this change and you make level 200 twinks mutlipurpose. Also, 200's can hit alot lower in level than 207/214 twinks so you make the level range that can't get hit by those twink killers alot more narrow.

[Gridpain]

You are correct sir but the question was what lvl to twink to avoid 126's, i dont know many people to stop at 114 for twinking- actually any.

oh ?

There's plenty of 103 / 107 / 119 / 110 / 114 though ...


"plenty" considering the number of people actually doing TL3/4 NW ... well, actually doing any NW ... well... actually playing this game...

[MidgarClan]

Player V.S. Player and Suppression Gas Balance

This document is intended to bring more content, excitement and good ole' fashioned fun to pvp! Currently Player vs Player content is limited and unbalanced. Overpowered and underpowered in many aspects. I am not just talking about players fighting each other. Most of the problems with players fighting each other seeming overpowered has to do with the manner in which we wage war on one another. This document will point out many ways to even the odds between players even without the use of the profession(s) re balance. I do agree the profession(s) re balance is needed but that is not the only way PvP needs to be fixed. Solving the problem with the various professions is only half the problem and will as such only fix half the problem while leaving other problems unchecked and creating more problems. Incorporating the various ideas in this document with the profession(s) re balance will cover most if not all the issues in PvP.

1. Towers and PvP attack level ranges.

• Notum Wars is ancient. It has been live for many years now and there has been little if any adjustment of tower wars to suit the developed content of the game and corresponding player strengths and level ranges. One of the first things that needs to be investigated is the range at which players can attack each other while in a war zone. We will focus on high level tower content for the moment as it is the most neglected portion of tower wars in the game.

• Allow me to be the first to ask the question on everyone's mind: What in the world justifies a 220 character of any strength being able to attack a level 180-200 character in a tower zone? Or any suppression zone? For that matter, what justifies a 220 character being able to attack anyone under level 210 or 215? Even most 215's don't stand a chance against any other profession that is 220.

• We must restore order in tower wars by adjusting the level ranges for which players can be attacked in a suppression zone by another player. Similar to the various battle station level ranges which can still use some adjustment, suppression zones should have similar limitations. Simply adjusting the title level 7 battle station as it is, shows a clear admittance/indication that there is no fairness in 220 players being able to attack anyone under level 215. As it so should be in tower wars. If we simply made the adjustment on suppression gas level ranges, you will restore the balance of power and reinvigorate the power struggle that must be had for control of land.

• As witnessed on a daily basis in high level tower battles, masses of 220's go out with their respective raid bots and crush the opposing raid force with much success and accuracy. Towers in this range are rarely change hands and it has nothing to do with the number of players subscribed. In fact, player subscriptions on one side or the other maybe down in part because of the lopsidedness of pvp ranges. If 220's could no longer attack anyone under level 210 or 215 in suppression zones, that will open up the door for players to utilize their TL6 characters to wage war on even ground, giving other organizations a chance to win land.
If an organization wishes to keep their high level base, they best be prepared with their TL6 characters just in case. Implementing this or a similar change will close the huge gap between naturally underpowered players vs naturally overpowered players. This will also encourage community growth on both subscription increase and character creation. Remember, this is only one small change that will encourage growth. All these small changes add up fast in the communities eye, as opposed to large changes that only happen occasionally. The various attack ranges for pvp in suppression gas must be implemented for all levels since the advent of perks. I suggest the following changes for debate:

Current Ranges:
1-5
5-9
9-14
14-19
19-25
25-33
33-43
43-55
55-70
70-89
89-113
113-143
143-180
180-220

Reworked Ranges:
1-5
5-12
12-24
24-36
36-50
50-75
75-92
92-126
126-150
150-174
174-200
201-210
210-220

Battle Station ranges:
N/A
10-30
31-60
61-100
101-150
151-200
201-214
215-220

Continued in next post...

[MidgarClan]

We can clearly See something wrong here when we look at current suppression gas pvp ranges (Top) VS the Reworked ranges (Middle) and the compressed Battle Station ranges (Bottom) There is a huge gap to fill here.

• The reworked ranges have surprisingly less total number of ranges and have substantially closed the gap in naturally unfair combat. The suppression gas ranges as they are now have more ranges that substantially open that gap resulting in naturally unfair combat.

• The proposed ranges also have something in common with the community. The italicized and underlined numbers in the reworked ranges column represent the various level *Twink* characters people tend to make for tower war and pvm. Now look at how that corresponds with the current ranges in the top column. Finally, see how it compares to battle station ranges. There is a huge difference here and the point to all of it is; the community has already laid out the guidelines for suppression gas pvp ranges as indicated in the reworked column, over a natural evolution of the game. It has just not been implemented yet.

• Now that we have a reworked Suppression gas pvp range, let's take a look at battle station ranges. These numbers are too closely spaced to offer the player base any real motivation for using most of them. While I can see and agree with the reasoning behind these ranges, it can be worked out just a little bit better. For battle station I propose the following changes with the knowledge that battle station is supposed to be fast paced and available to all players as they are currently set.

(Yes I do believe this first range is necessary to offer as people do have twinks in this range for pvp)

Reworked BS Ranges without Overlap:
1-12
13-36
37-60
61-90
91-126
127-150
151-200
201-214
215-220

Reworked BS Ranges With Overlap
1-12
12-36
36-60
60-90
90-126
126-150
150-200
200-214
214-220

Alternate Ranges Without Overlap:
1-12
13-36
36-59
60-92
93-126
126-150
151-200
201-214
215-220

Alternate Ranges With Overlap
1-12
12-36
36-60
60-92
92-126
126-150
150-200
200-214

• Giving the player base options such as this one allow for the prospect of increased subscriptions once again, increased character creation and activity. Believe it or not deciding the final ranges for battle station is quite a challenge for me and I struggle conceiving the “correct” ranges for battle station as it is in fact a very tricky situation to develop the right way. Either way, whatever the final battle station ranges may be, I believe strongly that overlapping the last level of a particular battle station with the first level of the next is key here.

• Battle station ranges can be debated until we are all blue in the face but one fact remains. As it is set-up, there will always be one or two types of ranges that will not usually run, but the key is to get as many range battle stations to run as possible. This should be investigated in depth with the content designers. I can not stress how sensitive this area is and it requires me to explain with a diagram as shown above so you can actually see what we are talking about. As stated earlier, levels of interest are underlined and italicized. I believe this method actively demonstrates how you can anticipate activity in these ranges of battle station.

[Armus]

You're kidding yourself if you think that 'within 1 TL' solution isn't going to be the same situation we have now.

So in your mind 200's + 207's and 214's < than 200's alone attacking tl5's?
How does that work exactly?

There are lots of people level 200 BS twinks and they will show up to TL5 NW pocketed by 220's.

They already are. What's your point?

That 'solution' solves nothing.

It solves the problem of shadowlevels, perks, alba and xan gear vs tl5's.
Which is the beef for most of us.

In fact, it makes the current situation much worse ... there are WAY more level 200 twinks than there are 207/214 and I'm betting they can't wait to hit the notum fields after being relegated to BS for so long.

You're correct, they can't wait and they aren't. There are plenty of 200's that come around for the veheeery few tl5 battles that actually happen.

207/214 twinks are less numerous because they are single purpose but implement this change and you make level 200 twinks mutlipurpose.

Why do you try to insinuate that 200's don't already join tl5 NW when they obviously do. only the ppl with 207's or 214's would not play a 200. And I think we can agree that a 214 is more powerful than a 200, no?

Also, 200's can hit alot lower in level than 207/214 twinks so you make the level range that can't get hit by those twink killers alot more narrow.

And they are also considerably less powerful. No xan gear, no alba stuff, much of pande stuff isn't usable by anything by agents and traders, no shadowlevels, no uncapped skills, no mongorage etc.


Your argument is the same as always. "This is not a perfect solution, therefore it's better to do nothing to help the situation"

It's quite sad and it's easy to see that you are biased and just all too happy to see tl5 NW continue in the sad state that it is until the game finally dies.

[Obtena]

They already are. What's your point?

The point is that the within TL1 limit isn't a fix that everyone thinks it is. The situation is exactly the same as it would be now ... Tl5's killed by twink killers that are pocketed by 220's. Sorry, let me correct that ... the bad-level Tl5's killed by twink killers that are pocketed by 220's.

[Lazy]

the bad-level Tl5's killed by twink killers that are pocketed by 220's.

[Equilibrium7] Eqbot3: L 200: team 145-220 | PvP 159-220 | 80000 SK | missions 140 150 160 170 180 200 220 240 250


so a good level for tl5 is.... 158?

[Wakizaka]

[Equilibrium7] Eqbot3: L 200: team 145-220 | PvP 159-220 | 80000 SK | missions 140 150 160 170 180 200 220 240 250


so a good level for tl5 is.... 158?

154, so you can get living symbs in. or 155 for another AI ding, or 158 for more IP.
But the best level for TL5 PvP, is of course, lvl200!