PvP range fix?

[Mostadio]

Seems like everyone is caught between play-to-win and sportsmanship.

[horrible]

I don't why we are discussing laddering at all. To me, it's totally irrelevant to the subject. No matter what the pvp range is, you will be able to ladder, period.

The only discussion we should be having is: 'What is a reasonable pvp range for X level?' So far all pvp ranges seem ok to me, except, as the OP points out, when things get into the shadowlevels.

My criteria: Is it possible to beat someone on the upper side of your pvp range?

Let's take my level for example. At 160, while it is very difficult, I can still kill non twinked 201 toons. While I cannot kill any twinnked ones, "in general" there exists a non-insignificant chance for me to win. Therefore, I conclude that the pvp range is ok.

At level 165, I would put forth the argument that it is so difficult to kill any 207 that there is an insignificant chance to kill any 207. Therefore, I conclude that the pvp range should be adjusted.

The OPs formula seems as good as any to me, and I support it.

[Lazy]

bump. i shouldn't have to bring a 220 to kill the 207 killing the 170's killing the 150's killing the 126's killing the 100 ct.

[Obtena]

My criteria: Is it possible to beat someone on the upper side of your pvp range?

That seems very appropriate ... for duels or 1 vs. 1 encounters. Unfortunately, that's not the typical flavour of PVP that you encounter in NW. The fact is that there is alot of experience with NW that suggest that levels aren't the only predetermining factor to winning a particular battle. That position seems very indicative of the fact that duels have a strategy for winning that is significantly different than NW. If your criteria is indeed speaking to 1 vs 1, it has a very small relevance to NW ... it doesn't consider the teamwork element of PVP in NW.

Conversely, if you weren't being specific about matchup scenario, I would say according to your criteria that NW is working as intended because the teamwork needed to have the highest levels of success in NW will allow you beat those higher level people.

[Lazy]

Consequently, I would say according to your criteria, NW is working as intended because the teamwork needed to have the highest levels of success in NW will allow you to do that as well.

correct me if i'm wrong, but according to you tl7's should be out there covering tl3 fields?

[Obtena]

Yup, you're wrong. I never specified what levels should be covering TL3 fields. I don't actually care because it's up to people to employ the strategy they want to win. If they have the necessary volume of people and that TL3 site is important enough control, why should anyone prevent them using a valid game mechanic to protect that interest? In fact, if someone were able to organize a TL3 war with laddering all the way up to TL7, that's actually impressive. Good for them if they able to organize themselves to that level because it would be unprecedented AFIAK. They DESERVE to win if they can pull off that kind of support and approach to NW. Of course, if you are being genuine, that happens at a frequency where it would be ridiculous to consider the scenario as relevant anyways.

[Obtena]

Seems like everyone is caught between play-to-win and sportsmanship.

That's a fair assessment. I agree it's not sportsmanlike to kill TL5 with TL7 twinks. On the other hand, not everyone does NW to get their 'sportsmanlike' fill in gaming. It's hard for some people to come to grips with this play-to-win approach, even outright dismissing that it's inappropriate for it to be in a game. I believe the game should be considerate of the different kind of people that play the game. The suggestions I have seen that support a change to this laddering don't. The problem is that there is no reason for anyone to be 'caught' between one or the other because there are flavours of PVP in AO that appeal to both positions.

[Contra]

bump. i shouldn't have to bring a 220 to kill the 207 killing the 170's killing the 150's killing the 126's killing the 100 ct.

Thread.

[Obtena]

Thread.

That's a funny /thread because your super-awesome, knows-more-than-anyone-else veteran experience in PVP and NW should already tell you that no one needs to do that at a TL3 battle, ever. Otherwise it would be happening all the time if it was necessary. It's a good try at brevity and simplicity to support your position but it's basing a position on something that just doesn't happen. That's a fail IMO. I said it already,. If you need to lie to make your argument stronger, your argument wasn't that good in the first place.

[Lazy]

That's a funny /thread because your super-awesome, knows-more-than-anyone-else veteran experience in PVP and NW should already tell you that no one needs to do that at a TL3 battle, ever. Otherwise it would be happening all the time if it was necessary. It's a good try at brevity and simplicity to support your position but it's basing a position on something that just doesn't happen. That's a fail IMO. I said it already,. If you need to lie to make your argument stronger, your argument wasn't that good in the first place.

clearly the only NW you've ever done is on these forums. this has been happening at most lowbie wars i've been to since i started pvping. someone logs a twink killer so someone else logs their twink killers and all of a sudden it's 1 or 2 people that are actually in range of the field and the rest laddering up to 220.

[Obtena]

You need to follow close if you want to understand what I'm saying. You missed the point so it's worth repeating. It's not necessary as you claim it is. There are levels that hit a 100 CT that AREN'T attackable by 126's. If you bring those, that whole laddering scenario falls apart in front of your enemies face. In addition, those levels can actually stand their own against twinks that are higher than them AND in their range. I'm scoffed at because I suggest it but simply put, it works. You play NW on your own terms, win towers and work laddering to your advantage. That's how we roll on RK2.

If this kind of laddering is occurring on your server at other TL's than TL5, it's just indicative of the lack of willingness to embrace NW strategic planning that seems to be pervasive in your NW population. Every QL tower has a high level that can attack it and a low level that can attack it. People need to learn when to use both of those facts to their advantage depending on whether they are defending or attacking. Your experience suggests they are not. That seems to be the learning barrier that people aren't willing to cross.

I can understand why threads like this exist when I see that kind of scenario occurring throughout a significant TL ranges on a given server. Of the TL3 wars I've been to, I can honestly say that this hasn't happened. I believe that's a fundamental difference in the way the two servers see NW. Maybe the extreme NW swings on RK2 make people do and accept more extreme play-to-win stances. I dunno but ideally, each side has a variety of twinks of various levels that don't go splat to the 'regular' laddering levels when it's NW time for a specific site level ... at least those that want to win do.

[Lazy]

You need to follow close if you want to understand what I'm saying. You missed the point so it's worth repeating. It's not necessary as you claim it is. There are levels that hit a 100 CT that AREN'T attackable by 126's. If you bring those, that whole laddering scenario falls apart in front of your enemies face. In addition, those levels can actually stand their own against twinks that are higher than them AND in their range. I'm scoffed at because I suggest it but simply put, it works. You play NW on your own terms, win towers and work laddering to your advantage. That's how we roll on RK2.

If this kind of laddering is occurring on your server at other TL's than TL5, it's just indicative of the lack of willingness to embrace NW strategic planning that seems to be pervasive in your NW population. Every QL tower has a high level that can attack it and a low level that can attack it. People need to learn when to use both of those facts to their advantage depending on whether they are defending or attacking. Your experience suggests they are not. That seems to be the learning barrier that people aren't willing to cross.

I can understand why threads like this exist when I see that kind of scenario occurring throughout a significant TL ranges on a given server. Of the TL3 wars I've been to, I can honestly say that this hasn't happened. I believe that's a fundamental difference in the way the two servers see NW. Maybe the extreme NW swings on RK2 make people do and accept more extreme play-to-win stances. I dunno but ideally, each side has a variety of twinks of various levels that don't go splat to the 'regular' laddering levels when it's NW time for a specific site level ... at least those that want to win do.

[Equilibrium7] Eqbot3: L 100: team 73-138 | PvP 79-126 | 1590300 XP | missions 70 75 80 85 90 100 110 120 130 150 179


unfortunaately we haven't figured out on rk1 which level doesn't have any twink killers. feel free to enlighten us exactly which tl3 level is the perfect level that doesn't have higher twink killers that in turn get laddered up to the eventual tl7 standoff.

or perhaps it's just that rk1 has a healthy enough population to have a large enough variety of twinks to actually kill whatever lowbie someone decides to log?

(ps ONE 95 can hit anything in the lower spectrum of what can hit a 100 ct. hell a 95 pocketed by 11x doc can take out a legion of however many 79 twinks you throw at it leaving the upper brackets covered by a 116-118 from there you can ladder up as i mentioned previously.

[IHaveHugeNick]

What do you expect, they aren't even close to scale of NW we have, they never did.

Thats the thing. This stuff escalates on RK1 , tenfold.

Its like explaining the ocean to aquarium fish

[Obtena]

[Equilibrium7] Eqbot3: L 100: team 73-138 | PvP 79-126 | 1590300 XP | missions 70 75 80 85 90 100 110 120 130 150 179


unfortunaately we haven't figured out on rk1 which level doesn't have any twink killers. feel free to enlighten us exactly which tl3 level is the perfect level that doesn't have higher twink killers that in turn get laddered up to the eventual tl7 standoff.

None, but of course, that's not what I was saying was it. I mean, go ahead and play dumb. it doesn't make your case any more than lying does. I know for a fact that you can roll a twink that can hit a 100 CT that can't be attacked by 126 twinks. I don't think it's my failure that your willing to deny that it's not necessary to escalate laddering in NW. I think the scenario you present about a 95 wiping 79's with a pocketing 11X doc says more about a lack of strategy than anything else. Pocketing as you describe is a perfectly reasonable strategy just as much as laddering is. A person with a good sense of that will know what twink is most appropriate in that situation. A GROUP with a good sense of strategy will put together a raid that can WIN in that situation. Real outcomes in AO are not that well correlated to this kind of forum-speculation paper PVP analysis and we all know it. It's NOT as cut and dry a conclusion as you sensationalize it to be.

Presenting and debating scenarios is not what I do because each has an outcome that is dependent on the knowledge and skills of the players behind the keyboards. Of course, I think it's debatable if a single 95 with that kind of support can 'take out a legion' of properly twinked 79's and I will even go so far as to say downright ridiculous unless those 79 are fresh noobs that only know how to spam AS completely out of unison. Regardless, I think that particular scenario says more about the people's skills than it does about a problem with laddering and pockets at NW.

[Lazy]

None, but of course, that's not what I was saying was it. I mean, go ahead and play dumb. it doesn't make your case any more than lying does. I know for a fact that you can do TL3 towers without interference from 126 twinks. I don't think it's my failure that your willing to deny that it's not necessary to escalate laddering in NW.

until you can show otherwise myself and anyone with more than half a brain will think that this is EXACTLY what you're saying. it has nothing to do with playing dumb and everything to do with you stating unsubstantiated opinions without backing them up. once again. what magic level do you twink for to hit 100 ct without interference from 126 twinks?

[Obtena]

If you can't answer the question you post yourself, you're not qualified to even talk about the subject of laddering TBH. I'm not here to feed trolls or debate ONE specific scenario that you concocted to convince yourself your correct. If you want to have a discussion, I ask you be honest with me. Otherwise, I'm treating you with the respect I would any other troll. I know you know the answer to that question. Go bait some noobs in OOC.

[Lazy]

If you can't answer the question you post yourself, you're not qualified to even talk about the subject of laddering TBH. I'm not here to feed trolls or debate ONE specific scenario that you concocted to convince yourself your correct. If you want to have a discussion, I ask you be honest with me. Otherwise, I'm treating you with the respect I would any other troll. I know you know the answer to that question. Go bait some noobs in OOC.

not agreeing with you != being a troll.


EDIT: and i really don't understand why you can't answer a simple question directly and instead choose to dance around it and throw around names. it's a simple question that you, as a professional and player, should be able to simply explain instead of accusing whoever asks it of being stupid and/or a troll. it really helps reinforce your point when you don't devolve your arguments into, what basically amounts to "lol u trollin"
when you decide you want to inform me of which level can hit a 100 ct without interference (as you originally stated) from 126's we can continue having this discussion like 2 rational adults and without rude namecalling do let me know, but until then kindly go bakc to the enfo forums and spew your hate there.

[Obtena]

Again, I didn't refer you as a troll because you didn't agree with me. Of course, it think it's warranted when you continue to tell me things I didn't say or making inferences from my posts that would be considered a stretch of the imagination. As for the highschool remark ... I never failed HS.

when you decide you want to inform me of which level can hit a 100 ct without interference (as you originally stated) from 126's we can continue having this discussion

That's OK, I realized the error in my 2nd post and corrected it. Feel free to acknowledge that my intention was to say that there are levels that can attack a 100 CT that can't be attacked by 126's exactly as I did in a previous post you quoted AND ignored.

If you want to have a discussion about support/pockets, that's fine as well. I'm assuming by interference, you're referring to the fact that a 126 can support 100ish twinks. Those 100ish twinks can hit much of the level range that can hit a level 100 CT. I don't find that unreasonable. You have to make up your raidforce to deal with the threats you expect/anticipate to encounter and every scenario is different. That's why NW isn't just another stupid zerg vs. zerg PVP encounter like alot of other games. These strategic elements make NW it's own separate flavour of PVP and adds a level of interest and considerations that appeals at a higher level than what you get from duels or BS. There are ways to counter the NW strategies in the game. People just need to use them instead of asking FC to remove them so they don't have to think.

[MassDebater]

RK2 might understand if you could ladder in duels.

[Contra]

What's the point of even rolling a tl3-4-5 twink if the actual battle is done between tl7s? It's a stupid game mechanic with broken level ranges that certain people, including Obtena, took advantage of and now they don't want to lose they're twink killers, at the cost of poor quality and downright stupid wars.
I want twink ranges to mean something again, when it comes to wars. I don't want to see tl7s in a tl2 field. I don't want to see tl5s in a tl2 field and will never want tl7s in a tl5 field.
And Obtena, skill of the player wins wars, not only numbers and I have my advys experience to back this out. If you actually knew me,Obtena, you'd know how my skill helped clans win alot of tl5 fields. Perk all my defenses, move in alone, kill the doc and either run out or die. Imediately after the doc died, the clan raid force went in and cleaned up, even tho omnis were twice as many. So even tho you refuse to see it, the performance and skill of individual players is CRUCIAL in wars, not only power in numbers and a rain of aimed shots decide the winner.