Viable AMS de-nerf.

[Wrangeline]

after a pretty long run in tl5, i recently decided to go back for some more tl7 pvp on my shade.

after reading these forums and seeing every1 say that solds are the slowest prof in game and thats a huge draw back... it got me thinking, in mass pvp, which alot of this stuff is based around. soldier all have runspeed buffs. Also in alot of battlestations they have runspeed buffs running.

Yes im aware that its low for a soldier selfed, but 90% of the soldiers i pvp have runspeed buffs andoften have capped RS like me. i had a few where there was 3-4 solds and they all could run at the same speed as me...

not saying their RS is fantastic or anything...but still its not that huge flaw in the defence if it requires 1 OB to nullify it as a defence flaw

Ya, the runspeed isn't one of the main problems. It's their inability to resist or break roots (and everything else) that is the actual killer >.<

Having that said, the point about soldiers having low RS is based on the fact that if both soldier and his enemy has the same outside buffs, the soldier will not be able to outrun the enemy, no matter what profession that enemy is. Unless the enemy gets lost, he should be able to keep within attacking distance of the soldier at all times.

[PingBong]

yeah there are nts and traders in this game and the occasional engi but i can guarantee u on the average the amount of soldiers that attend BS outnumbers these 3 profs combined.. and u have to admit atleast 9 out of 10 of the little skirmishes in BS happen without a single nt/trader/engi and a whole lot of soldiers which leaves us with the 10 other profs that have no means to penetrate that 80 seconds of godmode.
Right now it is kinda easy to get away as a soldier after ur ams runs out so yea it would be nice if they were pinned down so their time of weakness was actually reachable while it lasts but i attribute that more to the faults of BS (put a timer lock on teleports or something, remove apts from game)

honestly i think the only thing thats keeping soldiers from absolutely owning mass pvp is the brain capacity of the players coz 2 button prof kinda attracts a specific crowd, i have seen a soldier with real knowledge of other profs toolsets and pacing in action and its a scary sight fortunately tho his soldier bores him so much he doesent really play it anymore

[Wrangeline]

yeah there are nts and traders in this game and the occasional engi but i can guarantee u on the average the amount of soldiers that attend BS outnumbers these 3 profs combined.. and u have to admit atleast 9 out of 10 of the little skirmishes in BS happen without a single nt/trader/engi and a whole lot of soldiers which leaves us with the 10 other profs that have no means to penetrate that 80 seconds of godmode.
Right now it is kinda easy to get away as a soldier after ur ams runs out so yea it would be nice if they were pinned down so their time of weakness was actually reachable while it lasts but i attribute that more to the faults of BS (put a timer lock on teleports or something, remove apts from game)

honestly i think the only thing thats keeping soldiers from absolutely owning mass pvp is the brain capacity of the players coz 2 button prof kinda attracts a specific crowd, i have seen a soldier with real knowledge of other profs toolsets and pacing in action and its a scary sight fortunately tho his soldier bores him so much he doesent really play it anymore

I don't really agree with any of that. In various degrees.

NT's are pretty common. Traders and engies less so on RK1 but they are both present in various numbers or combinations in like half the BS's I attend.

Apart from those 3 professions, there are other professions that can do a lot of damage to a soldier in AMS. You mentioned that there are a lot of soldiers and that is true. So when one soldier does AMS, other soldiers and people with AS or MA's with big crits and so on bring the AMS'ing soldier down really fast. Or just root him and leave him there to rot and then deal with him later. That's always an option.

Then you got the professions that laugh at soldiers with puny 3600 AR that keeps missing both burst and FA and can't land perks on them.

Then you got the fact that a lot of fights last quite long in BS unless the soldier has a heavy zerg on his side, so by the time the soldier wins a fight, AMS is going down soon and whoever comes along next will find a free kill.

It's not easy to get away when AMS goes down. A soldier without AMS will go down like a sack of bricks because of 6500 AS, 6500 FA, 3k bursts, all manners of DD-perks, 6500 sneak attacks, nukes and crap. Low evades and no heals does that to you. There's not a single profession in AO that can't stop a soldier from running away. Everyone has the tools needed. Blinds, roots, snares, perk-snares, melee-stuns, perk-stuns, nano-stuns, blind perks, blind rings, root grafts..

My personal favorite though is to simply skip all that easy-mode stuff and simply follow the soldier and shoot at him. It works wonders. Its not like he will get away by shouting "psyche!" and then running away like a bolt of lightning into the magical land of Narnia. If he runs into a teleporter, I just run after him and do some specials in his ass and he dies. There's nothing hard about that what so ever and he certainly didn't find it easy to avoid that from happening

[Parranoid1]

Ya, the runspeed isn't one of the main problems. It's their inability to resist or break roots (and everything else) that is the actual killer >.<

Having that said, the point about soldiers having low RS is based on the fact that if both soldier and his enemy has the same outside buffs, the soldier will not be able to outrun the enemy, no matter what profession that enemy is. Unless the enemy gets lost, he should be able to keep within attacking distance of the soldier at all times.

agree'd the inability to resist snares and roots are the problem for solds.

The sold wont be able to outrun the enemy, but the enemy wont be able to catch up, as its most likely that both will have capped RS. but more often then not, in BS or in mass pvp, the soldier will be able to get backup to help them, so. yeah, no idea wat point i was getting across towards this thread.

[Insane666]

Ahem. One of the professions you're complaining about, NTs, don't just get all their defences screwed when a Trader is around, but all their offences too.

I wish I could still spit some decent damage out at other targets when a Trader has just hit me.

nt's cant, alltho i admit i forgot about that case when writing this, it still cant be compared, NONE OF NTS TOOLS WILL BE A LIABILITY, AS AMS IS VS A TRADER WITH BR

true, nt will loose his offense too just on gth ( with a 10-20 sec window to kill the trader tho? ), but you cant put a = tag between them, besides the 10-20 sec window before your nano pool gets drained totally and you have a chance to kill the trader, theres also the fact that a br'ed soldier wont do any dmg at all on that trader, null, none, squat,,, unless theres an engy arround ( traders br has a =sol tag on it, so even a friendly trader wont fix this )
and as alrady pointed out, you got a close window before your nano runs out ( after gth ) to kill of that little bug ( something nts claim its not even that hard, after gth landed already ), a br'ed soldier has no window open to do anything, and we wont even run away since we will get chain rooted by any trader with half of a clue

while, again, i admit i forgot about nts writing that post, its not the same, alltho close


we could dispute here who gets it worse, and while im pretty sure a soldier would win that dispute over an nt, its pointless, but yet again, you cant ( as a non soldier ) repeat after me and claim its 100% true:

show me a single other proffesion who can say that: my main (only) defensive tool can be a liability and i sometimes cant use it, becouse using it will mean 100% chance of defeat, plus it will make my foe close to immortal ( unless an friendly engy or nt is close ), wich results in my own side sending hate tells to me,,,

youre an inteligent guy with good knowledge of the game, you surely get my point and see the difference,,,

[Hacre]

nt's cant, alltho i admit i forgot about that case when writing this, it still cant be compared, NONE OF NTS TOOLS WILL BE A LIABILITY, AS AMS IS VS A TRADER WITH BR

true, nt will loose his offense too just on gth ( with a 10-20 sec window to kill the trader tho? ), but you cant put a = tag between them, besides the 10-20 sec window before your nano pool gets drained totally and you have a chance to kill the trader, theres also the fact that a br'ed soldier wont do any dmg at all on that trader, null, none, squat,,, unless theres an engy arround ( traders br has a =sol tag on it, so even a friendly trader wont fix this )
and as alrady pointed out, you got a close window before your nano runs out ( after gth ) to kill of that little bug ( something nts claim its not even that hard, after gth landed already ), a br'ed soldier has no window open to do anything, and we wont even run away since we will get chain rooted by any trader with half of a clue

while, again, i admit i forgot about nts writing that post, its not the same, alltho close


we could dispute here who gets it worse, and while im pretty sure a soldier would win that dispute over an nt, its pointless, but yet again, you cant ( as a non soldier ) repeat after me and claim its 100% true:

Smart Traders use NBD when GTH is up if NT starts throwing damage. Yes bad ones can be IU'd then tripled (assuming NT isn't shutdown skill'd or drained) or followed with perks.

It's so not 20s btw.

[Insane666]

if its 10 or 20 sec its just a technicality ( especially compared to an amsed then br'ed soldier, since our window to kill the trader last exactly 0.0sec after BR lands )

That isnt what he said though. He said name a class where putting up your defences can be a liability.

can any of your defensive tools be a liability? yes or no?

[sultryvoltron]

BR is hands down one of the stupidest nanos in game.

Change it, nerf it, remove it, whatever. It's unfair to Soldiers to take all their reflects including PNS etc, and gain 100% reflect (more than the Soldier had to begin with). It is spammable, and the NR check is a slap in the face to soldiers laughable NR.

Once this is taken care of, then the real problem of AMS can be handled. You may be wondering, what is the problem with AMS? Simple, it lasts too long and you are screwed once it goes down. During 1:20 seconds of AMS, they become near impossible to kill for most people. During the 40 second downtime they are sitting ducks. It should be changed to a 40 second duration, with a 60 second nanoskill nerf. This doesn't change the overall amount of time you are under huge reflects, but spreads it out making it more beneficial to the Soldier, but still promoting a window of weakness (which is shortened by 20 seconds) that comes around more often. This makes soldier fights far more interesting, and lightens the load on the soldier in terms of survival. Most people will kite out your AMS anyways, so let's get it up more often and make the opponent less bored waiting around a corner from you.

[Insane666]

BR is hands down one of the stupidest nanos in game.

Change it, nerf it, remove it, whatever. It's unfair to Soldiers to take all their reflects including PNS etc, and gain 100% reflect (more than the Soldier had to begin with). It is spammable, and the NR check is a slap in the face to soldiers laughable NR.

Once this is taken care of, then the real problem of AMS can be handled. You may be wondering, what is the problem with AMS? Simple, it lasts too long and you are screwed once it goes down. During 1:20 seconds of AMS, they become near impossible to kill for most people. During the 40 second downtime they are sitting ducks. It should be changed to a 40 second duration, with a 60 second nanoskill nerf. This doesn't change the overall amount of time you are under huge reflects, but spreads it out making it more beneficial to the Soldier, but still promoting a window of weakness (which is shortened by 20 seconds) that comes around more often. This makes soldier fights far more interesting, and lightens the load on the soldier in terms of survival. Most people will kite out your AMS anyways, so let's get it up more often and make the opponent less bored waiting around a corner from you.

while i gotta say, i really like your idea of halving the current both ams duration time and the nsd's duration time, but im afraid it would have a negative effect on some proffesions fighting the soldier,,,
namely, the doctor for exaple, at least this one proffesion depends on that 40 sec wide gap to stand any chance in finishing the soldier, if such change was implemented, most docs would never kill any half decent soldier, the literally only possibility to do so would be draining nano or increasing his nano cost % ( the latter option will dissapear from the game with the incomming breed genome perk changes )
none the less, very interesting proposal, from the perspective of being a soldier id love it, just i do realise my doc wouldnt be so happy about it

[PingBong]

I don't really agree with any of that. In various degrees.

NT's are pretty common. Traders and engies less so on RK1 but they are both present in various numbers or combinations in like half the BS's I attend.

Apart from those 3 professions, there are other professions that can do a lot of damage to a soldier in AMS. You mentioned that there are a lot of soldiers and that is true. So when one soldier does AMS, other soldiers and people with AS or MA's with big crits and so on bring the AMS'ing soldier down really fast. Or just root him and leave him there to rot and then deal with him later. That's always an option.

Then you got the professions that laugh at soldiers with puny 3600 AR that keeps missing both burst and FA and can't land perks on them.

Then you got the fact that a lot of fights last quite long in BS unless the soldier has a heavy zerg on his side, so by the time the soldier wins a fight, AMS is going down soon and whoever comes along next will find a free kill.

It's not easy to get away when AMS goes down. A soldier without AMS will go down like a sack of bricks because of 6500 AS, 6500 FA, 3k bursts, all manners of DD-perks, 6500 sneak attacks, nukes and crap. Low evades and no heals does that to you. There's not a single profession in AO that can't stop a soldier from running away. Everyone has the tools needed. Blinds, roots, snares, perk-snares, melee-stuns, perk-stuns, nano-stuns, blind perks, blind rings, root grafts..

My personal favorite though is to simply skip all that easy-mode stuff and simply follow the soldier and shoot at him. It works wonders. Its not like he will get away by shouting "psyche!" and then running away like a bolt of lightning into the magical land of Narnia. If he runs into a teleporter, I just run after him and do some specials in his ass and he dies. There's nothing hard about that what so ever and he certainly didn't find it easy to avoid that from happening

That just tells me how crappily are rk1 soldiers played coz obviously they never run to a safespot like their side spawn where you will get overrun if u follow or under an apt which will shoot u in the face, none of them have FM kits or gsf, they r always alone while u are many and they uncontrollably shoot at anything without choosing their targets. Cmon really? honestly i think ur being biased being a trader

[Insane666]

That just tells me how crappily are rk1 soldiers played coz obviously they never run to a safespot like their side spawn where you will get overrun if u follow or under an apt which will shoot u in the face, none of them have FM kits or gsf, they r always alone while u are many and they uncontrollably shoot at anything without choosing their targets. Cmon really? honestly i think ur being biased being a trader

if you really see a problem with this, im assuming you would be ok with reworking acrobat perks to have rs debuffs on their cooldown time? or do adventurers, fixers, shades not flee the very second their defences go off ( defences in form of acrobat perks, but in case of adve, even a coon on top of that )

or enfo coon capping? the rule is the same, once their defence is down or some1 break their absorbs they start to run

if i get nsd'ed on my doc ill start running or at very least kiting lik hell aswell,,, assuming theres some1 arround capable of doing dmg ( most shield mps arent )

the only proffessions that you cant accuse of that kind of behaviour would be those w.o any kind of active ( temporary ) defense tool

and we got proffesions with far greater defense then soldiers ingame ( and a lot faster )

[Xees]

That just tells me how crappily are rk1 soldiers played coz obviously they never run to a safespot like their side spawn where you will get overrun if u follow or under an apt which will shoot u in the face, none of them have FM kits or gsf, they r always alone while u are many and they uncontrollably shoot at anything without choosing their targets. Cmon really? honestly i think ur being biased being a trader

rk1 is better than rk2 cus rk2 is filled with nubs and rk1 is only pros ok rk1 >> rk2 rk2 is for nubs.


Rk1 METAS ARE BETTER THAN RK2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


oh waaaaaaaaait

[Etyris]

yeah there are nts and traders in this game and the occasional engi but i can guarantee u on the average the amount of soldiers that attend BS outnumbers these 3 profs combined.. and u have to admit atleast 9 out of 10 of the little skirmishes in BS happen without a single nt/trader/engi and a whole lot of soldiers which leaves us with the 10 other profs that have no means to penetrate that 80 seconds of godmode.
Right now it is kinda easy to get away as a soldier after ur ams runs out so yea it would be nice if they were pinned down so their time of weakness was actually reachable while it lasts but i attribute that more to the faults of BS (put a timer lock on teleports or something, remove apts from game)

Yes. FC, watch a BS match and you'll see this is reality on RK1.

[PingBong]

if you really see a problem with this, im assuming you would be ok with reworking acrobat perks to have rs debuffs on their cooldown time?

what i see a problem with is the combination of their defense and offense

[Boltgun]

what i see a problem with is the combination of their defense and offense

And that pretty much sum the prof. It's not like solds are also resisting, fast running, debuff spitting, sneaky CCers eithers. They don't even have several forms of offence and defence, one good of each.

Solds are quite easy to play once you have equipped yourself and it forgives mistakes, that's the reason there is many of em ingame. But its average is more raised from the bottom (meh solds still get kills) then from the top.

[sultryvoltron]

while i gotta say, i really like your idea of halving the current both ams duration time and the nsd's duration time, but im afraid it would have a negative effect on some proffesions fighting the soldier,,,
namely, the doctor for exaple, at least this one proffesion depends on that 40 sec wide gap to stand any chance in finishing the soldier, if such change was implemented, most docs would never kill any half decent soldier, the literally only possibility to do so would be draining nano or increasing his nano cost % ( the latter option will dissapear from the game with the incomming breed genome perk changes )
none the less, very interesting proposal, from the perspective of being a soldier id love it, just i do realise my doc wouldnt be so happy about it

This isn't entirely true.

Doctors are getting two new huge damage perks that check against NR. They will easily land them on any soldier, and a smart Doctor will save them for AMS downtime and probably easily kill the soldier (too easily imo).

[Tareon]

Nice idea.

Also:
Doc, advy and MA heals makes you jump up and down for the duration of the nano recharge.
DoF blinds you and blacked out your map for the duration.
Coccoon makes you walk backwards (not run) for the duration.
BioR give a epilepsy inducing flashing screen for the duration.
Borrow Reflect adds 5K conealment and forces you into sneak for the duration.
Trader Nanobot Defense adds 500 to all ACs for the duration.
NT NS2, NBS, NBG gives you -3000 nano init for the duration.

[Insane666]

This isn't entirely true.

Doctors are getting two new huge damage perks that check against NR. They will easily land them on any soldier, and a smart Doctor will save them for AMS downtime and probably easily kill the soldier (too easily imo).

oh, didnt read true the pdf's further then the breed genome perks so far, assuming you talking bout some prof perks not about those? same line that the existing in use or something else? ok, looks like ill have some more reading to do on evening hehe

[sultryvoltron]

oh, didnt read true the pdf's further then the breed genome perks so far, assuming you talking bout some prof perks not about those? same line that the existing in use or something else? ok, looks like ill have some more reading to do on evening hehe

I'll save you some hunting.

Embrace 10: Damage: -11238..-12361 (with 3 DoTs up)
Embrace 10: Damage: -7492..-8241 (with 2 DoTs up)

Also include the Starfall line which contains several nice DD perks.

[Phylicity]

The only issue i can see with AMS if funcom want to make normal hits matter more, is that the reflect is too severe. Duration is fine, having some method of bypassing it is useful, borrow reflect is stupid since you arent borrowing the actual reflect the soldier uses, instead its 100% which is ridiculous...

Just review how much reflect the best AMS has and tone it down slightly, adjust BR to borrow the same % of reflect that the soldier is using in their AMS rather than converting it to 100% and i'd say that makes things fairly balanced.