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Thread: Keeper Development

  1. #1

    Keeper Development

    I have been reluctant to post in these forums as I felt I wanted to get a sense of the direction the Devs were willing to take this balance process. Being that most of the feedback from the Devs has been in the form of perk documentation that slightly reflects the suggestions of the player base, I have decided to pool together my feelings on the Keeper Profession to give the devs a solid foundation on which to build.

    First my background: After being shown the game by my friend and college roomate, Traderific, shortly after the release of Shadowlands, I was hooked by the game's complexity and size. It wasn't a moment after he showed me a Keeper in full Tier Armor that I knew what profession I was going to roll. I have not had any other main than a Keeper since joining the Anarchy Online community. I never will have any other main. I have had 3 Keepers past 200 and 2 of them into TL7. I am also in the process of leveling more to be TL5 and lower.

    What first needs to be identified in the Keeper Development is exactly what role the Keeper Profession plays in the grand scheme of thing in Anarchy Online. I have dubbed this "The Keeper Essence" and I have started a thread discussing that here.

    Basically, the Keeper Essence defines what purpose a Keeper should fulfill and how it rounds out Role Playing Games in general. This will determine what boundaries development of the profession to stay within to keep essentially what the profession was created for in the first place, in line. Giving Keepers things like direct casting spells, or morphs are some examples of things that fall outside of these boundaries and encroach on other profession's development. If I could have insight from the developers on this area, it would lead to very productive discussions.

    My opinion of the Keeper Essence is this: a holy warrior who excels in all areas of combat and support. One who is defensively superior than it's warrior counterpart, but not necessarily as offensively proficient. One who has great defensive capabilities that promote his survival and emergency tanking roles, but doesn't out-evade the "nimble classes" such as Shades and Fixers. And also, one who has healing capabilities in times of need, but could never replace the healing capacity of a Doctor. A Keeper is a great addition to the team as it rounds out the void between tank and healer. While in this role as a team addition can be viewed as a support position, the Keeper excels at solo combat as he brings with him abilities from all areas of combat/support/defense. This should be unparalleled to any profession. Because of this well rounded TOOLSET, the Keeper is a very versatile fighter. The degree of versatility I have defined in a post titled "The Keeper Proficiencies" which can be found here.

    The current problem with Keepers is that we have been neglected for many patches now that have introduced nanos, items, perks, for other professions. Every time something new was added for the other professions the Keepers have sat back and asked "well what about us?" Our voice was not that loud as we knew we were doing pretty well and at one point were "the top of the food chain." Unfortunately, our passiveness led to neglect and our toolset became very limited. Our attacks were good, but not quite good enough, our defenses were good, but not quite good enough. All of these situations led to Keeper's opponents being JUST out of reach in every encounter, no matter the setup, no matter how hard we hotswapped. We are stuck in the mediocre middle, with no hope of being very proficient in any area.

    So what I call for is this: that keeper's tool set (or proficiency) is extended in extremes further out. That is, Keepers will need to have all areas of their proficiencies bolstered to meet the current demand. Offense will need to increase, Defense will need to increase, and our Support capabilities will also need to be bolstered. All of the things that define the Keeper Essence will need to be heightened in order to carve out our niche amongst the professions. What we do have is not much different from just rolling something else. We are too often seen as a "poor-mans" enforcer, or "mini-advys" and not the shining righteous warrior that we are meant to be that supports the team and himself in times of need.

    Now for some hardcore suggestions to carve out our niche, which of course are subject to change in order to meet the direction of Anarchy Online and it's balancing efforts:

    -Dimach - Emergency button, currently 1 hour recharge. This needs to change. If a 3 minute recharge Mongo Rage is seen as an emergency button, then dimach certainly needs to be lowered significantly. Our Dimach is a heal for roughly 70% of our health when maxed out. It needs to scale and it needs to be more of a "thank god I have Dimach left" button

    -AR - Our AR now is crap, we have to hotswap to a full AR setup before we can even dream about perking someone. It used to be that if you timed DoF, Limber, and Coon, you'd have a window to perk advy's. It used to be that if you widdled an enforcer down and timed your perk actions and damage, you could kill one. These days are no longer and instead of skill and tactics playing a role in pvp, we simply know we will lose unless our opponent is severly gimp or severely green. Our perks are limited, and if we miss, it's a good minute to 2 minutes of recharge waiting defenseless and offenseless.

    -Defense - still okay, but still requires a dedicated evade setup to get any chance of surviving

    -Heals - decent, but with the heightened HP and damage of other professions, they are inadequate.

    -Auras - Are we a Keeper or aren't we? We end up only have about 3-4 auras which don't really add much and don't really benefit our teammates. Hardly well rounded, and hardly missed by anyone.

  2. #2
    Great summation.

    I'd like to see some of your opinions on the "scaling" of dimach.

    If, for example a TL3 keeper has dimach maxed, how much will it heal, and what is the recharge?

    And, do you see it playing a more significant role in healing?

    Currently, for me, it heals about 3k. 3k/3600 seconds = less than 1HP/s
    Lay on hands is 600 HP/40sec = 15hp/s
    Curing touch is 2400 /120s = 20hp/s
    Ambient regeneration 494HP/20s = 24.7 HP/s

    these are our prof specific healing, which should be compared to other profs healing capacity.

    Defensive actions could use a brushup.
    We just don't have enough perks at lower levels to "fill" out our defences.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Nov 21st, 2009 at 02:36:59.

  3. #3
    Very well thought out post there. Basically sums up how most of us feel i would think.

    anyone ever think about how making some of our heals nanos instead? wonder how that would play out. =P
    Noorb: 220 Keeper
    Retention: 217 shade
    Hawtpants: 210 trader
    Osker: 210 MA(may re roll)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Noky69 View Post
    Very well thought out post there. Basically sums up how most of us feel i would think.

    anyone ever think about how making some of our heals nanos instead? wonder how that would play out. =P
    Badly. Keepers aren't casters, nano init is dark blue and nano pool is a hell of an IP sink. We're not doctors nor are we Adventurers.

    The Keeper design takes its uniqueness from auras and perklines replacing what others have in active nanos and active perks. Coupled with high HP this is where the Keeper defensive strength lies. At one stage Keepers could carefully time "big" perk execution while bolstering the gaps with aura performance and smaller less effective perks.

    This has become more and more impotent as Keeper killing power has gone down the toilet.

    Again, Keeper defence isn't the biggest issue, it's Keeper offence, the ability to kill people, which has apparently not been touched ever because Keepers can be Atrox therefore have no problem landing their perks. While some defensive things need to be looked at, the biggest problem is offence. I don't want to see the rebalancing project come along with a few extra nanos that are very slight improvements over current nanos with even more insane casting requirements. We've been there, done that and it fixed absolutely nothing. We had an over 200 point casting difference added to end game nanos, which resulted in a "meh" improvement and lets not forget the Defeat Righteous nano which is an absolute abomination.

    No other class has to go through such a torturous rebuffing period when their nemesis nano ends. It's only comparable to the after effects of GTH for an NT and even that doesn't involve a stupid amount of gear swapping. This along with everything else needs addressing, -now-.

    Instead FC even thought that Keepers needed "nerfing" in team situations, not allowing different heal auras to be run. Because a 2k heal every 20s or a 1600 heal every 20s was sooo over powering, which in turn screwed Keepers out of the heal efficiency research affecting their heal aura.

    Too much concentrating on things that aren't even remotely important, where the Keeper class is concerned and it has been going on for too long.
    Last edited by Hacre; Nov 22nd, 2009 at 21:33:59.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  5. #5
    Absolutely, Hacre.

    Keepers are no longer a threat. We're like stone samurais. Great defense, but don't worry about us we'll just be sitting over here surviving for eternity.

    We need more things to be a threat in PvP once again. I have just suggested that one of the actions we get is a nano drain or NCU eliminator. This will counteract things like Mongo, Essence, Heals, Drains, Nukes etc. This fits well in a PvP Team situation as well as solo.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous View Post
    Absolutely, Hacre.

    Keepers are no longer a threat. We're like stone samurais. Great defense, but don't worry about us we'll just be sitting over here surviving for eternity.

    We need more things to be a threat in PvP once again. I have just suggested that one of the actions we get is a nano drain or NCU eliminator. This will counteract things like Mongo, Essence, Heals, Drains, Nukes etc. This fits well in a PvP Team situation as well as solo.
    a HP debuff! like 30% of their overall HP the more hp setup they go the more it debuffs them think of it like a balance, also it would be rather nice instead of having AS/SA or anyother 30% cap special it's new and unique and would be fun in duels or mass PVP/BS just think about it make it use 1K nano (since hardly anyone maxed nano just enough to cast top buffs so we can't abuse it, but let it land easily!) think it will be usefull on docs/enfs agents soldiers advys and some of these maybe in NR1-2 setups

    Also maybe a grapple hook for kiters to pull/warp players back to us, since we are a slow Melee prof!!! would fit our roll nicely
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Qualinas
    You're kinda slow, aren't you, Mr. Nov09?

    Well, its not everyday when I google for funcom or access funcom.com.
    Oh noes j00 want me to bring my "Join date: 2004" main to pwn yo? lols @ forum pvp

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion84 View Post
    a HP debuff! like 30% of their overall HP the more hp setup they go the more it debuffs them think of it like a balance, also it would be rather nice instead of having AS/SA or anyother 30% cap special it's new and unique and would be fun in duels or mass PVP/BS just think about it make it use 1K nano (since hardly anyone maxed nano just enough to cast top buffs so we can't abuse it, but let it land easily!) think it will be usefull on docs/enfs agents soldiers advys and some of these maybe in NR1-2 setups

    Also maybe a grapple hook for kiters to pull/warp players back to us, since we are a slow Melee prof!!! would fit our roll nicely
    Haha you just summed up my two suggestsions:

    Nanobot Suicide

    and

    Tractor beam

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous View Post
    Haha you just summed up my two suggestsions:

    Nanobot Suicide

    and

    Tractor beam
    or what about an OB stealer:P if you have no soldier on your team or anything and your on BS and the other team has, or a fixer... let's say you can cast a nano that will steal their OBS to your own NCU like GSF/RRFE or HOTS etc... and give them a hostile nano that last for 2minutes to stop them from been rebuffed again by another player until it runs out!?? :P

    Or a total NCU stealer, it removes all the contents/buffs of their NCU and xfers them to the caster imagine an enforcer, when they cast Improved Mongo and stealing their IB etc... or stealing that soldiers AMS and having it to use for the duration remaining LOL!!! stealing an NTs NS or a doctors hot and HP buffs! bring their HP down to the unbuffed ammount, let this nano be castable once every 1 or 2 minutes to go along side our dd perks to not make it OP :P or a BS nano only think of what you could do to certain profs

    OR what about a nano called CUT down, which makes everything in the ncu 50% effective (not armour weapons or items equiped ncu only) so it counts to time it right , perks HOTS/HEALS reflects/ Evades AR buffs skill buffs!! :P proboblies more of a trader nano lol but it would be useful for us in our poor situation
    Last edited by Legion84; Nov 23rd, 2009 at 01:13:00.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Qualinas
    You're kinda slow, aren't you, Mr. Nov09?

    Well, its not everyday when I google for funcom or access funcom.com.
    Oh noes j00 want me to bring my "Join date: 2004" main to pwn yo? lols @ forum pvp

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion84 View Post
    or what about an OB stealer:P if you have no soldier on your team or anything and your on BS and the other team has, or a fixer... let's say you can cast a nano that will steal their OBS to your own NCU like GSF/RRFE or HOTS etc... and give them a hostile nano that last for 2minutes to stop them from been rebuffed again by another player until it runs out!?? :P

    Or a total NCU stealer, it removes all the contents/buffs of their NCU and xfers them to the caster imagine an enforcer, when they cast Improved Mongo and stealing their IB etc... or stealing that soldiers AMS and having it to use for the duration remaining LOL!!! stealing an NTs NS or a doctors hot and HP buffs! bring their HP down to the unbuffed ammount, let this nano be castable once every 1 or 2 minutes to go along side our dd perks to not make it OP :P or a BS nano only think of what you could do to certain profs

    OR what about a nano called CUT down, which makes everything in the ncu 50% effective (not armour weapons or items equiped ncu only) so it counts to time it right , perks HOTS/HEALS reflects/ Evades AR buffs skill buffs!! :P proboblies more of a trader nano lol but it would be useful for us in our poor situation
    While cool, all sounds very Tradery or Fixery to me. Doesn't really fit with the "honourable" knight.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  10. #10
    Give keepers frenzy stance.

    Don't be lonely anymore.

    Look at your post, now back at mine. Now back to your post, now back at mine. Sadly, yours isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through posts, reading the posts your posts could look like. Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, my reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkstaah View Post
    Give keepers frenzy stance.

    Frenzy stance: while this stance is up, PvP rules won't apply to the keeper.

    No more halved damage no more 30% cap. Everyone will hate this :P
    blah

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous View Post
    Absolutely, Hacre.

    Keepers are no longer a threat. We're like stone samurais. Great defense, but don't worry about us we'll just be sitting over here surviving for eternity.
    While i do agree our offense is in dire need of help. I dont really see our GREAT defense. unless you completely and solely dedicate yourself to having a great defense. in which case makes our offense even more pathetic.

    because of RL. i do not have the time to get alpha symbs. without those. you are put into a rediculas situation where you can only go to 1 extreme or the other by swapping gear. if you find a "nice balance" . 250-270symbs only get you to mediocre. i guess this is my problem more then a keeper problem. but w/e
    Last edited by Anarrina; Nov 24th, 2009 at 05:06:01. Reason: fixed broken quote tag
    Noorb: 220 Keeper
    Retention: 217 shade
    Hawtpants: 210 trader
    Osker: 210 MA(may re roll)

  13. #13
    I see what you're saying noky, and let me just say that I couldn't agree more. Keepers really need to have an ultimate end game setup to even be remotely competitive in pvp against those with only thrown together setups on other professions. Many keepers will agree with me that we need BAGs of items to hotswap and click in order to be effective. This is unacceptable. Hotswapping should give you an edge over your opponent, not determine if you're going to live or die. As it is I need to swap hud, chest, back, WEAPONS, in order to attempt to perk an uperkable target. Then I have to quickly swap back to a defensive setup or I will quickly be perked and cut down.

    So I empathize with your sitatuion but also don't fall into the mistake of think that just because you don't have time to farm end game gear, that you should have end game capabilities. I do agree however that keeper weapon/implant/armor setups are heavily weighted in determining their effectiveness which is unfair.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Frenzy stance: while this stance is up, PvP rules won't apply to the keeper.

    No more halved damage no more 30% cap. Everyone will hate this :P
    It means I can cap the keeper for 13k with my AS?
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion84 View Post
    a HP debuff! like 30% of their overall HP the more hp setup they go the more it debuffs them think of it like a balance, also it would be rather nice instead of having AS/SA or anyother 30% cap special it's new and unique and would be fun in duels or mass PVP/BS just think about it make it use 1K nano (since hardly anyone maxed nano just enough to cast top buffs so we can't abuse it, but let it land easily!) think it will be usefull on docs/enfs agents soldiers advys and some of these maybe in NR1-2 setups

    Also maybe a grapple hook for kiters to pull/warp players back to us, since we are a slow Melee prof!!! would fit our roll nicely
    the only thing i strongly oppose in this suggestion is the % base... more health should NEVER be a dissadventage.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

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