TL 5 Ease of Use

[McKnuckleSamwich]

This thread is designed to take into account three factors at TL5, and provide the game devs an idea of how balanced TL5 is currently.

The idea is, is that some profs are currently hugely overpowered with the time required to build said prof. This is thus, a compilation of those factors, with offensive and defensive rankings, ease of use and ease of build, taken into account.

The reason for this thread is to provide the game developers with some idea of why TL 5 PVP is limited to 5 professions.

I will give a brief synopsis of why each of the top 5 ranked profs are so easy.

1. Agent. level to 170, perk CS, obtain SPS, obtain reasonable symb set, obtain reactive or combined paramedics. get FP doc, CH, UBT. Destroy everyone around you.

2. Advy. level 165. perk coccoon, acrobat. Get moonlight, wolf, leader, set of CC/CM, SSOS, win.

3. Doctor. level 165. get UBT, get CH, get reasonable HP buffing armour/symbs and a AS weapon. Survive anyone.

4. Enforcer. level 165-170. perk coon, perk CH. grind AI 17, get CM, choice of weps, reasonable symbs, slaughter many people.

5. Soldier. level 165-170. get SPB, get AS swap, perk AR, get CC, farm some OFAB, win a lot, survive well.

The next few professions are slightly lower on the scale, considering there is more variation in the setup, more practice needed in prof handling, more ofab required, and more AI levels needed to be competitive.

6. Trader. Get a silverback, get CS, get nanite drains, and a bevy of nanos. easy to be mediocre, hard to be good.

7. MA. get CC, 2x igoc, perk evades, be effective. (costly)

8. NT. usual setup requires some nodrop items, many nanos, prof is not easy to play.

9. Fixer. Has potential, but IP is so tight you really need to get the best nodrops for twinking. tricky to play well.

10. keeper. need lots of ofab, lots of types, high CM/CC, perk setup variable, none effective, can be ok defensively OR ok offensively, but near impossible to balance.

11. MP. lots of work required to be good, farming tough to get mystical force, many nanos, scheol quest (barf).

12. crat. requires lots of work, and tricky to play effectively.

13. engi. amep twink is hard, complex, can be effective (i've been told), but requires a lot of work.

14. shade. whatever work is put in will ultimately be futile against 90% of profs faced at TL5. Exercise your patience, for you will need it.


The preceding list is compiled based on my experience in the last 3 years of playing AO. I've seen many people stay at TL5 to twink, and I've seen fewer and fewer different professions attempting to be competitive.

Currently, a typical BS queue might contain something along the lines of: 20% advy, 15% doctor, 25% agent, 15% enforcer, and 25% other prof. Which basically means the variety is way overshadowed by the predominance of these 4-5 ease-of-use profs.

To balance out variety, IF a prof is very very hard to make good, they need to be somewhat more competitive than the cookie cutter easy made profs which currently absolutely dominate.

Please keep this in mind for any changes in the perk setups.

[BugsCoT]

Might contain... ?

[Ciex]

Its very simple; if you dont have healing, you fail unless you win vs your ISP/server lag and press 1234567890 buttons in right time. Its Alpha Online after all. The easiest twinks are those who have the biggest healing. The worst are those who dont have any. If you take a crat and give him 10k aad instead of 1k that he has now he will still loose most of the time at tl5. Top popular are people with CH (doc, agent, advy), middle are the people with some lower healing but strongly dependand on other ways to mitigate dmg (evades, absorbs, reflects). The least popular choices are people without any healing but only other ways of mitigate dmg (absorbs, specblockers, evades) - shades, engis, crats. Having specblockers for example is cool, but if you have only 3 of em at alpha time, most people will eat them in 1-2 seconds.

[Freor]

Heh, advy, doc and sold in top5, with NT as 8th and trader 6th. You guys have some "interesting" tl5 PvP on Rimor

(melee) advy has nice survivability, but without pushing your ar with a set of cc and top symbs, you sure aren't going to kill twinks or evaders on rk1 at least. Need to work on NR too or you'll be standing rooted most of the time. Kiters are a big problem too with the current sync, hopefully that will change tho.

Doc is nice 1v1, but staying alive doesn't often mean killing the enemy. And sure needs more work than NT to be even mediocre.

Sold is easy to play if you just spam burst/fa, but killing evaders, good docs etc sure isn't easy. Add the awful nr and trader/nt swarms and i wouldn't say they are so easy to play. Overall on the better half of profs tho.

Atm there are some OPd and some gimp profs, but the proposed changes will change a lot. As it is, Agent, Enf, NT and trader would be on the top4 in my book. AS nerf and perk changes will drop agent a lot, haven't checked about Enf changes. NT and trader don't at least seem to be getting a nerf, general slower alpha actually boosts them even more. Possible nano changes might ofc be on the way to balance things.

[Gatester]

Quit making these threads.

I have had a tl5 enf, MA, 3 melee advy - 3 ranged advy, doctor, fixer, shade, MP and none of them are properly represented in your threads. Until you actually start playing these professions you need to quit "ranking" them in the attempts to get everyone but your profession nerfed. Even worse is you are ranking professions based on difficulty of use and not their potential.

[Javafan]

...SNIP...

I think the problem with your examples is using words like "resonable". What do you mean by that? Are enduring/growing symbs resonable? Are living/persisting symbs resonable?

Reasonable setup has nothing to do with twinking at TL5.

Some professions might have it easier, true... But if they are in a reasonable setup, they will fail when attacked by a twink.

Basing conclusions on resonable setups vs. twinks with persisting/vigorous/+240sh imps equipped does not prove much.

For those wishing to go with replies like "NTs have it easy with slapping on enduring/growing symbs and getting LE nukes" - yes, they have it as long as they aren't attacked. Otherwise they just drop like a sack of potatoes.

[Organa]

For those wishing to go with replies like "NTs have it easy with slapping on enduring/growing symbs and getting LE nukes" - yes, they have it as long as they aren't attacked. Otherwise they just drop like a sack of potatoes.

I just want to comment on this.

Quite right.

NTs do have good offense, but are squishy as a banana that's been left in your drawer for 3 weeks.

To make an NT good both offensively and defensively needs a LOT of work, equipping the absolute maximum QL symbs / imps, equipping high-end items and getting the top line nanos.

Then you have to play it as well...

Org

[Obtena]

In my 3 years of PVPing at TL5, I have given this quite a bit of thinking, what profs are good, for what reasons, in what situations. i would like to share this with everyone, because it's a very structured way to pose the problem of ranking profs. I would like to think I can contribute to this area too, having played 8 profs in TL5 PVP, from semi-twinked to WTF twinked. (NT, Crat, Trader, Soldier, Agent, Enfo, Doc, Engi) (OK, I admit, they aren't all my twinks, but I still played them quite a bit)

So far, how I have thought of this TL5 PVP ranking is the following:

Relevant attributes for PVP:

1. Offensive strength - Simply, the ability to kill your opponent.
2. Defensive strength - again, this is evades, aad, etc..
3. Staying power - Amounts to how long you can stand and fight
4. Support strength - Preventing opponents from exploiting their strenghts in a fight

Between these 4 attributes, one can rank profs and then assign some relevance to each attribute really is. Of course, this depends on WHAT kind of PVP you are doing.

Unfortunately, my ranking is biased because 1) I don't have direct experience with every prof and 2) it has to assume a specific build for each prof which adjusts their ranking in each attribute.

Anyways, you can do the same sort of analysis yourself if you have enough experience but my conclusions ended up in determining the following:

1. For BS PVP (my favourite), I tend to think the most important attributes are 1 and 3, given that there is a good chance for 1 vs. 1 encounters, but eventually, more tend to show up unbalancing the encounter in favour of the more numerous group. Based on that kind of PVP model, I like Soldiers alot. Even when outnumbered, they give and take a pounding like no other and if the fight is evenly matched 1 vs. 1, they have a staying power big enough so there is more chance a friend shows up to help you out. Sure they have very strong nemesis with NT, but in that PVP model, it's less relevant. Now for more populated BS, attribute 2 becomes very important too, where you don't get that chance 1 vs. 1 encounters so I tend to favour Advy and Fixers.

2. For Duels, (I hate), Traders are premiere, followed closely by Agents. I'm not an expert in this PVP cause I suck badly at it but the Support strength and the 1 vs. 1 focus of a trader is so strong, it outweighs any lack of staying power they might have. Agents on the other hand, have such a variety of tools available to them that they can customize their strategy right down to the profession they are fighting.

3. For Towers, 4 is SUPER important and 3 isn't far behind. Attribute 4 wins battles IMO. I have to say that between the AOE CC tools and their strong and varied offensive toolset, as well as secondary defensive abilities, NT are the most effective profs at tower battles.

Now, we can make posts about what profs are nerf or OP, but fundamentally, if you want FC to balance them out, you have to wonder WHAT PVP model they will balance it for. I mean, a prof that is broken as hell for duels might not perform as well in towers. I don't really see a way around some things while others are just obvious. It's retarded traders cast and land both top drains at TL5. Same with Advy having a CH, top evades perk and Bio cocoon at TL5.

[Solidstriker]

To make an NT good both offensively and defensively needs a LOT of work, equipping the absolute maximum QL symbs / imps, equipping high-end items and getting the top line nanos.

Tbh, this is the kind of thing that applies to all professions @ tl5. Ok, maybe not shades. There's no such thing as anybody who can run around in sub par or minimal gear and expect to survive well. No, not even advies.

NT's (I'll speak of this from a non-NBS, tl5 perspective) just happen to have access to a toolset that's made to deliberately remove a moderate to high amount of hp in short bursts, with a type of check that is not as "easily predictable" as evades and able to be disabled given time (Perks come to mind; Yes, maybe it can't be predicted when DoF is up, but at least people know what to expect when fighting an Acrobat profession; Similarly, it is not hard to tell what professions one can perk given a certain amount of AR + possibly debuffs). People whine about how OP double/triple are, but they seem to ignore the concept that a lot of other professions are able to deal a massive amount of damage in a short amount of time. That's what an alpha is, after all.

@topic

Ease of Use, you say? (I'm thinking of this as top = easier, middle = moderate, lower = strenuous)

Agent- Unless they're spending time kiting like mad, they're incredible damage sponges. (They can twink evades, it doesn't make them an evade profession) Rk1-wise it's complimented with the mimic enf alpha, which destroys a lot of people in a short duration of time. For Rk2, I can see how CH'ing an alpha would be annoying, but what kind of sacrifices do agents make there for that ability? Less AR? I don't know, but it's not the 'perfect' setup, either. Their alpha also takes some time to recharge, but that doesn't negate the usefulness it has. Plus, in mass, popping AS at targets always helps. This access to different setups is also a bonus for people that play the profession. The ability to sneak is always good, and, even if no IP is spent, there's a reason Ruse exists. They're a part of the "top" group for the ability to do all these things.

Adventurer- Well, I might as well let the list speak for itself: Acrobat, Bio Cocoon, Ability to perk Notum Repulser, SSoS, respectable Attack Rating, 'Decent' mobility (Nothing like their tl7 counterparts, but 23% root resist is more than 0% even if it does not seem to work much, it still has a chance of resisting; and roots come from more than just NT's, if they happen to be the one profession that lands them most, surprise surprise!), Support/Arty/Infantry symbiant access for one of the best combinations, Sneak Attack/Dimach + some decent DD perks. Yeah, "top" as well.

Bureaucrat- AoE Fears/Roots/Snares are pretty vital for mass PvP, they can provide their teammates with amazing AAO/AAD modifiers, Living Embalming, ability to equip Dread pistol, IRoO, Hostile -crit or -NR aura (-nano for kicks). While these look great on paper, they don't do anything to help with damage taken, which makes fights, especially against AS users, a race against time. If defense is well twinked, they're still perkable by enfs/agents/sometimes advies (traders too, but they don't need to be classified by what they can perk), but it should be expected to die qiute a bit running around solo as a crat. Pet isn't reliable, it's an AoE/Drain totem at best. "Middle" profession because crats cannot simply steamroll anybody, but they can still function effectively given practice and the right setup.

Doctor- UBT, CH, DoTs, some have AS, some go all out defensive. Definitely one of the most important professions, but the good ones are able to keep the CH's coming and seep away their target's HP at a moderate, but slowish, speed. They can also get a decent amount of HP and NR. One of the biggest problems seems to be their inability to do anything about running targets, but it's understandable, since doctors were not created with that particular tool set in mind. A few professions can alpha them, just like with most any other profession, but that does not negate the fact that they can tank well. In terms of ease of use, I would say "middle" because they don't get a massive offense to go with their ability to survive, which takes quite a bit of work to get to before that's achievable.

Enforcer- Ability to get high AR, Sneak/Dimach + decent DD perks, Rage, Bio Cocoon, Mongo, Challenger. They have an excellent tanking tool set, but that's not surprising considering their roles. The relative usefulness of said buffs/perks is determined by what they're up against, but overall I don't think anybody complains about having access to nice buffs like those. Getting to people/running away isn't the biggest concern for enfs; sure, they may face problems like NT roots, but overall CC tools aren't as reliable to use on them, making keeping distance away from enfs tough, considering how hard they can hit. Downfalls may be having a lot of HP and dealing with AS/FA, but I haven't played one to know well enough the holes in its defense (Well, besides being perkable ). "Top" profession for their versatility in PvP situations.

I'll do the rest later, but hopefully I'm giving my perspective with more of an open eye, rather than just 'omg it can kill me, so OP'.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'll do the rest later, but hopefully I'm giving my perspective with more of an open eye, rather than just 'omg it can kill me, so OP'.

This was never the points of the thread. You'll notice I haven't complained, on this thread that X prof can roll X prof.

This thread is designated to show which profs are the easiest to be uber effective at.

you got AS? gz
you got CH? gz.
you got SA? gz
you got coon? gz.
you got dof+limber? gz
you got all that? you're OP. Ok, maybe not all of it, but, seriously, if you have more than two of items on this list you're already rolling hard in the gray zone.

And, as for a poster above, they said, all TL5 need decent setup to survive. Depends who you ask. And, the reality is, is that advies don't need much mroe defence than what their perks provide them with inately.

@ poster above, when I say reasonable, what I mean is that if the top symb you can equip is persisting, then a living might provide 95% of the bonuses, and enduring might provide 85% or so. I'd say, reasonable is within 80% of the top bonuses. The way the game is setup, however, if you're at 80% but you have AS or SA or CH, you're in a WAY better position than someone who DOESn'T have SA, AS, or CH, even if they are at 99%. Lets say 100% is just on the border of unperkable.

99% is still perkable. but, the advy at 80% can still roll hard, be totally unperkable half the time anyway, and take a boat load of dmg, coon up and spam a phoenix. Most other profs have nothing even remotely close to that kind of defensive mechanism.

[Stinnipeng]

You kinda missed TL5...

Its not like anyone could just "obtain" a cc set, or a cm set... Or even reactive for that matter...
Well geared chars should pwn other poorly geared chars, thats just how it works.

[erozc]

Its not like anyone could just "obtain" a cc set, or a cm set... Or even reactive for that matter...
Well geared chars should pwn other poorly geared chars, thats just how it works.

There's a point to this. There's "Get CC/CM and SSOS" for advie and "Get CC/iGoCs" (like most the other professions don't need them iGoCs) for MA, but MA only is noted as being costly.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

There's a point to this. There's "Get CC/CM and SSOS" for advie and "Get CC/iGoCs" (like most the other professions don't need them iGoCs) for MA, but MA only is noted as being costly.

yea.. I guess it's because only the MA's I see pvping at TL5 are in a reasonably expensive setup.

[Reids]

It's retarded traders cast and land both top drains at TL5.

Imagine it for TL3 + 4 :/

[RedWobe]

Imagine it for TL3 + 4 :/

yeah but if it was title locked, other professions would become viable, and that is unacceptable.

The way I see all this, there are two professions with truly OP offenses: Agent and Enforcer
There is one profession with truly OP defenses: Adventurer
There are two professions with truly OP support capabilities: Trader and Doctor
There are two professions that have all these things, just a little bit less than any of these here: NT and Fixer

Everything else has its uses, and good setups that will shine (AMEP Engi, Offensive setup MA, Crats for towers, etc), but if you can list out that 7 professions are 'OP,' doesn't that really mean that none of them are? The balance between profs (with the exception of the 'sad profs' like shade) at TL5 is not terribly bad.

[erozc]

yea.. I guess it's because only the MA's I see pvping at TL5 are in a reasonably expensive setup.

Damn near everyone decent I see has iGoCs, that's 1.5bil+ already. 5+ parts of CC/CSS and non-free symbs means more or less double that, CM less, SoW/SoC are 300mil+ at the moment too, not only MAs use Notucomm. For aMEP engie you need 6 supple based armors, iGoCs as much as everyone else and besides the tradeskilling set (which you can attempt to sell later though). Some professions go for the free NR pants and some can use a few OFAB bits, others use CS armor but I don't really see the huge difference. This topic is on the "ease of use" and if that includes the cost of building a toon, well, it's really hard to draw a line on "effective", "cheap", "good versus twinks". Even el cheapo advys and docs are kind of easy-ish prey for twinks of several professions, 170 agents too even though their alpha still hurts. The good ones are separated by resisting the tool sets of others.

Surely you could argue that you need all the AAD you can get as an MA so iGoCs are a must, but many other professions need that AAO, or even AAD, just as bad.

All in all what this 'ease of use' thing is all about for me is that no professions are easy to be uber effective. Some can be somewhat effective with negligible effort in ganking others (NT, agent) or surviving for a while (dof->coon on advy, TMS'd soldier) while others can't easily be good in any of that versus twinks (ever tried an engie with Kyr pistols?).

[Calamite]

There are two professions that have all these things, just a little bit less than any of these here: NT and Fixer

Say what? I didn't get that. NTs have support like traders and docs and defenses like advy? Fixers have offense comparable to agents and enfs? Last I checked NT evades were dark blue. Yes there are evade NTs but it's not prof specific, you can slap that setup on a doc and you'll have the same evades. And fixer's support is what exactly? Roots and snares + HoTs? I don't think it's comparable to CH, UBT and nanite drains, not even close.

[Ciex]

"Cheap" twinks dont work, few months ago ive tried a BS with my stripped NT with ql 180-200 symbs and pred armor. I couldnt nuke any half decent twink. There are no easy profs with cheap stuff, but some need a bit less creds. The most expensive are ofc CC armor users.

[Dopecat]

"Cheap" twinks dont work, few months ago ive tried a BS with my stripped NT with ql 180-200 symbs and pred armor. I couldnt nuke any half decent twink. There are no easy profs with cheap stuff, but some need a bit less creds. The most expensive are ofc CC armor users.

Depends on professions. My doc is running around with Arbalest, not maxed symbs/imps and set of reactive (sleeves+gloves are paramedic, cheapest AI armor). And he survives just fine with 12k selffed HP if he just gets RRFE. Very, very cheap toon in twink terms. Maybe like close to 100mil total.

Then again ive stacked expensive phats on my crat. Even swapped Notucomm to RBP so it will have more HP against NT doubles/triples and +add dmg for AS. Even with CSS set + RBP +2x iGoCs, that toon still drops like gimp to 150 enfos, good mimic enf agents. Even often to medsuit double/triple NTs if i dont have alpha up for them and get in range in time.

Yet i still like playing my crat more since its more of a challenge and you dont see crat twinks all around tl5 (perhaps for a reason though).

[Gridpain]

the simple fact that a 172 froob doc can do things in BS other than buffing others and sitting in buffing room shows that a sloob doc will be a tad OP...

it's infact a not too bad way to find OPness...

if a froob of this prof can be "decent" ... its exp counterpart will be OP.

Only froob prof that can do stuff in PvP at TL5 are :
doc enfo trader and agent (in no special order) (and maybe fixer, situationaly..)