Friday with Means - January 23rd, 2009

[IHaveHugeNick]

Well, not every update to the game has to be love or nerf. Some things are put in game because FC thinks it will make the game more fun/interesting.

That was their reasoning for knockbacks for example. It wasn't to give love to professions that needed it. It was to make PvP more interesting and fun, in their eyes.

These mines are another tool that can make PvP more interesting and fun and it just so happens that engies get to control that tool as they see fit.

From Funcom point of view, yes. From player point of view, nope. If you kept track of player reactions to knockback, not a single person saw it as ohnewcool stuff. Everyone saw it either as divine gift, or a doomsday weapon that will ruin their fun from the game. Players are looking forward and cheering up new content if it gives them an advantage. Players are complaining about new content, attempt to change it, or are sometimes even boycotting it, if its not giving them advantage.

Hell i'd really like you to show me 1 (one!) example of profession specific, combat related, content upgrade that was neither love nor nerf but made the game more interesting, because it sounds mostly like your theoretical construction.

These mines are another tool that can make PvP more interesting and fun and it just so happens that engies get to control that tool as they see fit.

Interesting and fun...for who? Can planting mines be any fun? It clearly cant. But i guess it easier to say to small minority of playerbase, shut up and go plant mines, it will be fun....for everyone else except you.

[SSK]

I'll roll engy and will set mines with nano drain near all trader houses

[ninor]

Hi means,

could you elaborate on the instanced cities and what problem you want to address?
If there are not enough cities wouldn't it be easier to just make new city spots?

I think that instancing them and not having shops in them might create more problems that are supposed to be solved here...

PS.: Reading the threads in suggestion forum it might not be to bad an idea, but pretty plz implement a better shopping, auction or mail system in parallel!
For those that are interested:
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=544900
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=529413
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=472107

[egadsrk2]

More spots doesn't solve a problem.

Add 10 new cities.

What happens? 10 ******** bank toons already president of their dumb orgs camp out there after checking where they are on testlive.

They buy them for a song.

2 hours later the planet is full again and theres 10 city plots for sale at a 1000% markup. Think plx.

As for the benefits remark as to ownership and requirements in instanced space. Not as relevant an argument as people may hope.

Step 1: Create infinite cities in instanced space.
Step 2: People with farm orgs dump their cities and get an instanced one. Theres dozens of people out there with 3-4 cities who dont feel motivated to part with them, yet don't use them either. If its a case of dump it before it loses 2b in price, then dump it will be.
Step 3: More real orgs control cities. If theres anyone even in this game with full expansions and no benefits - it becomes even more trivial to be a part of it.

Since this is what -will- happen, if cities become limitless, I see no reason why instanced cities need to be owned. What is benefits anyway. 36 nanoskills, 9 cost, vehicles, bodydev, and +9 base abilities if I recall correctly.

Can't say I've ever heard of someone with full expansions opting to stay in an org with no city when every org on this server is desperate for new members. The door is wide open already.

[Wrangeline]

From Funcom point of view, yes. From player point of view, nope. If you kept track of player reactions to knockback, not a single person saw it as ohnewcool stuff. Everyone saw it either as divine gift, or a doomsday weapon that will ruin their fun from the game. Players are looking forward and cheering up new content if it gives them an advantage. Players are complaining about new content, attempt to change it, or are sometimes even boycotting it, if its not giving them advantage.

Hell i'd really like you to show me 1 (one!) example of profession specific, combat related, content upgrade that was neither love nor nerf but made the game more interesting, because it sounds mostly like your theoretical construction.



Interesting and fun...for who? Can planting mines be any fun? It clearly cant. But i guess it easier to say to small minority of playerbase, shut up and go plant mines, it will be fun....for everyone else except you.

Ok, I get it. You don't like mines and you don't think it will be fun to use them. Then don't. If you don't like the idea of these mines then they were not designed with you in mind.

As for non-love/non-nerf PvP stuff that made the game more interesting, how about mechs for example? Everyone can use them so it's not put in game as love for any profession. So why were they put in the game? To make PvP more interesting. I know all these examples are not profession specific but something being profession specific or not has absolutely NO impact on this topic at all. Something like this being profession specific is only an important point if it somehow forces that profession to do something it normally wouldn't. The fact these mines wont force the engies to do anything and wont make engies worse, makes the profession specific point moot. Besides, why is it a negative thing that something profession specific to make PvP more interesting was put in game for the first time? It makes no sense to me. I wouldn't use my fixer on this forum and whine about fixers getting snare-mines just because fixers already have snares. Even if fixers were the first profession to get such a tool. It makes no sense to me. I get another way to annoy my enemies if I wish and I lose nothing in the progress. Whats bad about that?

How about orbital strikes? I hate those damn things but they sure made PvP "interesting" in the strangest sense of the word.

How about shadowbreeds?

The reason knockbacks got so much negative feedback is because it directly affected profession balance. Some got it, some didn't. Some would actually need it, others definitely didn't need it. The reason it didn't make it into the game however was because of collision detection issues and not because of balance issues. As Means himself said, if it weren't for these issues, he would have liked to see it ingame because he thought it would be fun.

Fears are still coming into the game. Are fears there to address profession balance? To give love to those who need it? Nope, just for "fun". It's another game mechanic that AO didn't have in PvP that FC think might be fun.

FC is clearly trying to add stuff to the game that makes PvP more fun. They have been doing so for a long time. Whether we agree that they are fun additions to the game or not is somewhat besides the point as that's a subjective point of view. The point is that FC is trying to keep this game fresh and fun for us. If some people think they failed in every attempt to do so then that's fine but I fail to see how these MINES can be anything but positive for engies?

Getting mines will not make engies worse. Those who like the concept of these mines and think it would be fun to use them in BS will enjoy them and perhaps even become slightly better PvP'ers as a result. Those who couldn't give a flying monkey about these mines will simply not use them. It changes nothing for anyone except the ones who want to use them and they have more fun.

The only reason I can think of why mines would be a BAD addition to the game is if some kind of engie love was replaced with the mines. Lets say Engies were about to get a new 220+ pet that could eat everyone in BS alive in 2 seconds, but then that was scrapped because the dev working on it was reassigned to work on the mines instead. Then I could understand that engies got irritated. Beyond that.. give ME the mines. I'd like them! Doesn't matter which one of my alts get to use them, it will be another tool to use I didn't have access to before.

I suspect the reason engies get these mines and not some other profession is simply because it makes sense that engineers get the engineer-tools. If there was no engie profession in the game then I suspect FC would add something similar but less useful (so it wouldn't be overpowered and miss used) but usable by every profession in the game.

They simply want us to have fun. If you don't think their ideas are fun then suggest something else that would make PvP more interesting. Also remember that just because someone says something isn't fun or isn't useful, that doesn't mean it is the truth. It only means that this person doesn't like it, that's all. Someone else will like it though. My engie would love these mines. I'd make good use of them and I'd have fun watching enemies walk over them. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way. Luckily that's not my problem though.

[trollingstones]

me me me more citys plox dual logged farming or triple ,tripledouble bots extra mega money movie thanx $$$ plox gief

[Suicidal]

me me me more citys plox dual logged farming or triple ,tripledouble bots extra mega money movie thanx $$$ plox gief

When instanced player cities get in game, then farming is not that good income anymore.. anyone with AI (or maybe even without) can go out and get their own stuff instead of buying it for insane price from someone else.. sure, lazy people or people who don't have time for it will still buy it, but I think that these alien farm (lol) owners get nerfed.. good thing.

[schloops]

No server merges are planned. Not at all.

Butbutbut that would be the most needed change ... nothing compares to an increase of population :\.

And really engies, if you can't make a good use of those mines, you just stink.
Plz Means, don't judge a profession toolset about how bad at pvping or how good at moaning their most vocal members are. Gives me those mines... I'll be happy as hell^^.

[fixking]

gogo Means! i think i ll reactivate my 2 acc and buy the booster after 18.0 hits the live and i ll see good feedbacks...

-synch issues fixing = <3
-prof balancing = <3 (dont forget about agents and their defence revisioning please)
-engi mines yea!!

btw those new playfields will be tl7 only? then more farm for end-game chars?

[Nuclearsmeg]

Agreed that we don't really need to see a copy of current AI cities.

However, they're talking about being able to have city advantages. That means city buildings. That means ownership. Naturally they could be a different set of buildings but something your org "owns" for it would still be needed.

Your suggestion is great, and I'd love to see it, but seems to me like new content rather than an instancing of cities.

Building on the idea earlier where you get a nano in your NCU (or just a raidlock) so that you can't hop orgs and chain farm raids (which shouldn't be set in non-instanced "expensive" cities), both the instanced cities and the missions you suggest could have bosses that share same loot tables and both set the same nano.

That way orgs could still buy instanced cities for large raids and for advantages. And un-orged people or people who want to team others could go do non-city missions. With the same shared loot tables ... and the same lockouts.

Just one thing: please don't put these missions in the LE mission environment. I know some people liked them but they just hurt my brain with their look and feel.

Unlimited cities and lockout really won't make much of a difference. I have 2 toons that can easily solo ground raids (3 really but Doc doesn't always kill fast enough to get a General..I've tested to see if she could do).

Using just me as an example (I consider myself a slightly above average PVM player), this will allow me to own 2 cities, and farm back to back continually as often as I would like.

End results are far cheaper lead bots and AI armor; many in game will be running around in full sets of combined. Maybe the cheaper cost of bots will (after a while) make it difficult to use lead bot farming to fund 2 cities.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? No idea.

[Kaylinne]

While your doing that i please focus on tweaking player effort vs reward because things like 1 button -> 30% hp removed or 1 button -> target nanopool removed are what piss off people the most and are the cause of most "complaints" (read bitching). Most non-idiot players dont mind being beaten by a player with superior skill or gear but do mind being owned by over powered toolset (regardless of how this particular tool balances the profession as a whole).

This.

[joehoo]

When instanced player cities get in game, then farming is not that good income anymore.. anyone with AI (or maybe even without) can go out and get their own stuff instead of buying it for insane price from someone else.. sure, lazy people or people who don't have time for it will still buy it, but I think that these alien farm (lol) owners get nerfed.. good thing.

In response to this...

I'm not a city farm owner, nor do I wish to be, but I think that instancing cities in this fashion will be bad for the long term.

Why?

Everything in the game is becoming easier or faster to get. Do I hate grinds? You bet! But in the end, this trend is making everything easier for people: be it equipping something, "farming" something, leveling, you name it. It dilutes the challenge of a MMORPG, in my opinion. This just adds to a list that's been growing, and in and of itself it wouldn't do much, but as a whole the effects will be seen.

What is my suggestion?

Go ahead, instance cities - I agree that it's ridiculous that people hold cities because of greed and try to sell it for gobs of money. But, there has got to be better ways of dealing with the people that own multiple cities, so I don't agree with their instancing.

If you argue "AI content for all (with the expansions)", I say go make new APF fields for more TLs. If you argue "Fixers will just kill it", then make them harder - but don't just go ahead and instance everything. The same goes for cities, in regards to instancing, where apparently in the future owning a city will mean little to nothing more than an upgrade.

I suggest implementing some type of AI missions - more akin to city aliens than LE (with entry points in the key cities of RK - i.e. Borealis, Rome, Athens, etc.) - where they're team-instanced, but with some boss that has a drop rate of bots less than or equal to that of cities, and the corresponding loot you may find on a city general or admiral. It would be to "eradicate advancing alien units" or something.

OR, make random AI attacks all over RK - completely random location and random levels etc. It would make people flock back to RK and roam the wilderness.

[Mekh]

while your doing that i please focus on tweaking player effort vs reward because things like 1 button -> 30% hp removed or 1 button -> target nanopool removed are what piss off people the most and are the cause of most "complaints" (read bitching). Most non-idiot players dont mind being beaten by a player with superior skill or gear but do mind being owned by over powered toolset (regardless of how this particular tool balances the profession as a whole).

/qft

[Wrangeline]

Everything in the game is becoming easier or faster to get. Do I hate grinds? You bet! But in the end, this trend is making everything easier for people: be it equipping something, "farming" something, leveling, you name it. It dilutes the challenge of a MMORPG, in my opinion. This just adds to a list that's been growing, and in and of itself it wouldn't do much, but as a whole the effects will be seen.

This is going to a be semi-strange reply but I wanted to say something about the progression of MMO's. I'm not going to comment on whether or not instancing cities is a bad thing or not because I haven't spent any time thinking about that yet.

When it comes to MMO's, or AO specifically, it's not easier now than before. It's way harder now than before. Everything is harder. Leveling is harder, getting end-game gear is harder, equipping something is harder.

I know that's a strange thing to say but I'm thinking "overall" and not "as opposed to 3 months ago".

When AO went live in 2001, the game was designed in such a way that it would take X amount of time to level to endgame. It would take X amount of work to get full set of the best gear available and so on.

FC has added a lot to the game over the years so in order to keep the game from becoming absolutely impossible for new players, FC had to water things out a bit to keep the game at least relatively close to the original "difficulty"-template.

Back in the old days it was slow going leveling to 200. Countless missions. Day after day, week after week, month after month. Now FC has added alien levels and research levels and shadowlevels. If it was equally hard leveling now as it was before then new players would give up before they even started. Because of all these extra levels, FC has made leveling easier. It had to be done.

Getting a full set of the best armor in the old days, like Azure or whatever, was much easier than getting alien armor is now for example. Getting a good weapon as a trader meant running 1 mission to get the mission reward. Now there's more work needed than that.

Short put, there's more work in total now but the individual stuff that existed before all these expansions have now been made easier to compensate for that. Still, it is harder overall. Much harder.

Of course, if we look at things from a smaller "perspective", like how things are now compared to just 1 year ago for example, then it's easier to equip stuff now. This is true, yes. But the way I see it, this is just a symptom of the game having to get watered down a bit as more farming is added to the very top of the endgame, in order to keep the overall time and effort needed to reach endgame at a somewhat reasonable level. Some things get easier slowly over time by adding items that buff abilities and such. Other things get instantly harder/timeconsuming by adding a booster pack or expansion pack that introduces a new grind. Both the slow "easyfication" and the instant "hardification" of things exist because of each other.

[joehoo]

This is going to a be semi-strange reply...

That's a really good perspective , didn't occur to me until I read it. It applies more to newcomers to the game, I believe, so I guess it depends on whether FC would rather please newcomers or "veterans" more or less. Guess there's a fine balance, but I guess we'll see where the game is in a few months+.

[Armus]

Just reduce the lockout timer on city ai raids to 0. 1000 times easier than instancing cities and you'll instantly see loads of cities in the market. Cheap and easy solution.

The only thing I have against this or instancing as that at least on clan side ppl are way WAY too split up in small orgs already. And this will probably make it even worse if everyone can get their own, personal city.

[Frelldat]

Any plans to add FUN stuff for mellee profesions ? (now that knockbacks were removed?)

Anything that SNARES ruins mellee FUN against ranged and lately we see more and more snares... (just something to think about when you guys are adding more snares)
...
New players on BS are RARE and often are leaving fast in frustration if they are not the "right" profession. Somehow the nemessis professions design tends to ruin the FUN on BS . If your side doesn t have the right support you simply have no chance/fun.

Naah! http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=329

[Tiralee]

I'm wondering if the instanced cities will be superior to current cities in everything but the use of player shops.

Will instanced cities, unlike some current cities, all have:
- perfect alien pathing
- room for every city building (and therefore all possible city benefits)
- city benefits that don't go down for no reason at all

If so, then it might make sense to give current city owners an option to have their cities instanced, and just leave the grid exit, player shop, and whompas on the city plot.

Orgs with large perfect plots might not take such an option. But some orgs with plots that can't fit all buildings, or with such poor alien pathing that raids become a real problem, or where the unreliability of city benefits staying active is a major issue to most members, might want to do so.

[Chrys]

Profession Balancing Act:

Certain professions currently need more attention than others. We will be conducting a thorough profession review early this year, sharing our findings and acting on them in an upcoming profession "tweak" patch.

This is good news. Will it apply to all TLs or just TL7?

[erozc]

Having all this said, not all engies use snare-aura on their pets. With mines you could use anti-reflect or whatever on pet and use mines for snare.

If you can't see any advantages to having snare mines then don't use them. No one is forcing you to.

O_o where do I get an anti-reflect aura (or something else besides the snare+aao aura) that I can cast on the pet please? Give plz.

By the way, if you ever planted any real mines, it's rather boring so RP-wise them being a chore is just about right.