Friday with Means - January 9th, 2009

[Hacre]

So, please, if you DO have a theory that might work, PM it to me if you don't want the "whiners" to see it. I'd be delighted to know.

He doesn't have one, plainly detectable by the presence of thinly veiled insults after being shot down.

Classic Perfekt posting practice, tbh:

Perfekt: "I'm right, bow to me, I know all"
PartyB: "No you're not, <list of reasons/examples as to why>".
Perfekt: "Yes I am, you're just too stupid to realise that I am right and I am therefore not going to lower myself to explaining it to you. Whiner."

[Rktim]

I would say yes to BOTH option 1 AND 2 ^_^

[Ayria]

Means,

Would it be possible in any way... to have some proc descriptions put in on the LE procs? I'm sure it's nice auno is getting lots of traffic looking up what these actually do.. lol but a description similar to nano description would be 100% uber

ty in advance

Thief that's my idea...

Halp forum stalker!

(Means click for idea you should put in right away ^_^)

And I know the trolls will jump on me cause I'm Omni but I'm with the crowd that says knockback OS is just dumb, I don't know where you're from but here a big ****ing blast from an orbital space station would decimate Omni HQ not to mention incinerate people, not just push them away.

"Don't worry it will just push you back it's only a super charged laser from orbit"

[Astera]

It always seemed pretty pointless to have mechs if their only use was in the battlestation.

If Mechs were able to hit towers as hard as they are other mechs, then you might not need to change the orbital damage much. As I understand it, not even a mech can withstand an OS. For players not in a mech, this is ridiculous. An AoE mechanic to affect players in mechs vs players not in mechs at different damage rates might complicate it a bit but might be best in the end.

Orbitals without mechs is just overpowered for the defending side. If there are no plans to further develop mechs into something useful (outside of the BS and a few bosses) then by all means (no pun intended), change the damage of the OS.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Defensively speaking - 3-4 doctors pressing their BGH1 and raidforce is back to full health, repeat with BGH2 on 2nd strike.

No, actually all you need is one clan solitus SB.

Go figure.

[IHaveHugeNick]

It sounds to me like Means and FC directly or indirectly acknowledged the balance issue between Clan/Omni SBs used in conjunction with the OS mechanic. I don't see how any of the proposed changes does anything about said balance issue.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

I'm with Alco on the fact that NW needs a total revamp btw - good idea for the next booster imo. Special zones for Tower Wars or whatever where you can only bring a certain amount of people so we'll finally have quality > quantity fights and maybe even guild vs. guild in some form.

Exactly. This should be the main focus, if you really want to see NW alive and kicking again.

[Oakyyy]

OS will never be used again. Ever. Spliting people up in tl7 pvp is useless unless it knocks them like a good minute away. As far as the little damage it does, doctors will perk heal and group heal it back within 5 secs.

[Odov]

Its been said, but:

#2, because #1 will just be another excuse for clans

[Lektronik]

But anyway. Are you going to tell us, that you HONESTLY believe, that a raidforce of 25 toons (without SB/OS I might add) is going stand up to a raidforce of 50 toons (with SB/OS I might add), and win?

So, please, if you DO have a theory that might work, PM it to me if you don't want the "whiners" to see it. I'd be delighted to know.

Where did I say something about a raidforce of 25 going up against a raid of 50? I didn't. Stop trying to make it sound like I said that.

The raid force that is outnumbered, regardless of side, is going to have an exponentially harder time winning. However, the exponent is based on the intelligence factor (or lack thereof) of the enemy. Impossible though? No.

He doesn't have one, plainly detectable by the presence of thinly veiled insults after being shot down.

Classic Perfekt posting practice, tbh:

Perfekt: "I'm right, bow to me, I know all"
PartyB: "No you're not, <list of reasons/examples as to why>".
Perfekt: "Yes I am, you're just too stupid to realise that I am right and I am therefore not going to lower myself to explaining it to you. Whiner."

Resorting to insults now eh hacre? I don't blame you. I have that effect on whiners.

1) I don't know it all.
2) Just because I don't educate you in how to do what you already know you can doesn't mean that I'm lying.

Would you teach calculus to some guy who intentionally dropped out of school in 6th grade, especially when he doesn't want you to teach him?

[Lupusceleri]

Where did I say something about a raidforce of 25 going up against a raid of 50? I didn't. Stop trying to make it sound like I said that.

/facepalm

What, exactly, did you propose then? Like I said splitting up in one group of 10 and one group of 40 isn't going to make any difference at all. The group of 10 will be steamrolled by the force of 50, the group of 40 will be SB+OSed or if the omni don't feel lazy they might attempt a real fight.. the 40'ers stand a chance yeah but are still outnumbered so not -that- likely to win at all anymore. So the SB+OS-vulnerable group might as well stick together, or those 10 toons are wasted cannonfodder.

Anyway, what is your definition of (and I quote):

"Who said you are limited to either running around in a big group or running around in smaller groups? Why not both?"

My definition of a big group is: at least 80% of the side's force are sticking together.

My definition of a smaller group is: 50% or less of the side's force sticking together.

So basically with a force of 50, a big group is 40-50 toons. A small group is 1-25 toons. If you have both a big group and a small group, you have one group with 40ish toons and one group with 10ish toons. That sounds pretty much like "Why not both?" to me.

Seriously, give me a clear anwer and you'll no longer look so stupid.

The raid force that is outnumbered, regardless of side, is going to have an exponentially harder time winning. However, the exponent is based on the intelligence factor (or lack thereof) of the enemy. Impossible though? No.

D'oh, but, your precious SB+OS forces only ONE side to split up to avoid getting everyone killed. So the side that doesn't have to split up, has a HUGE advantage over the other because they can easily mop up the other groups with their greater numbers..

[erozc]

I would say yes to BOTH option 1 AND 2 ^_^

Oh my, but I must agree with Tim here

Also, I'd like to point out that the way I deciphered the original post, it read the two proposed changes were supposed to be delivered as a package anyway - both #1 and #2 is what the change proposal is about.

And I have to agree, it sounds exciting. Also, getting rid of turrets could still be done with airstrikes, so lowbie pvp would not be (that much) affected, just the number of viable strikes halved.

[Spart]

How about making the OS take about 20-25% chunk of your health? It still makes OSes useful to kill stragglers, but you cant just wipe an entire force with only one to two OSes. It would require a successful teamwork of 4-5 just in order to wipe everyone.

With it giving knockbacks, unless snared or rooted before teh actual damage takes place, that gives that makes it a bit harder to time with multiple ones if people are pushed out of the current affected area from the OS.

[lugoman]

/facepalm

What, exactly, did you propose then?

What is it you dont understand? Clan is supposed to not be in a blob AND not be split up at the same time. It's brilliant! Finally a strategy to beat os/sb!

[Uaintseenme]

Hopefully the long awaited Engineer Mines will come at the same time.

Thank you Means, I'm realy looking forward t having a play with them and hope we can come to a mutaly satisfactory arrangement for the way these mines will be implimented.

[Lupusceleri]

What is it you dont understand? Clan is supposed to not be in a blob AND not be split up at the same time. It's brilliant! Finally a strategy to beat os/sb!

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

[aramsunat]

1st: happy new year

2nd: i see OS a useful and fun part of NW, but with omni SB it can be seriously exploited as an advantage, since omnis can schedule which toon will pop sb and when, but when the clan blob senses an omni sb landing (since it cannot be predicted beforehand), RL shouts for clan sb, when at least 4-5 clanners will pop theirs. so in a very short term, clanners will be out of sb-s. plus it requires good reaction, while omni sb needs only preparation.

the _real_ problem imo is not the SB+OS working together, but the density and the sometimes outmost reliance on it.

Proposed fix: a site can be nuked ONCE per side every 30 minutes. irrelevant how many orgs are there, ONE orbital strike each land every 30 minutes. (edit: meh but that will lead to grief, since neuts and omnis are working together meaning 2 OS against 1)

this way OS will not be spammed at will, and will be a bit more predictable and most importantly, the enemy side cant wtf pwn half of the other side's forces that just came back from reclaim

ps: the knockback effect is also a nice idea. being nonlethal is a bad one imo

[Kotts]

My vote is for option 2, but with some extra kick to it.

could mix and match some of these so people still feel the pain from above, and not have it feel like a punch from the blow-up boxing glove

-AAD/AAO Debuff
-Stun
-Nano interrupt Debuff
-Nano Debuff
-DoT (Agh gawd it burns!)

[Ebondevil]

2nd: i see OS a useful and fun part of NW, but with omni SB it can be seriously exploited as an advantage, since omnis can schedule which toon will pop sb and when, but when the clan blob senses an omni sb landing (since it cannot be predicted beforehand), RL shouts for clan sb, when at least 4-5 clanners will pop theirs. so in a very short term, clanners will be out of sb-s. plus it requires good reaction, while omni sb needs only preparation.

Doesn't that basically translate to 'Omni SB is overpowered because Omni plan more'?

Nothing stops Clan RL's from planning who will SB in what order if an Omni SB's them all...

As far as AoE snaring everyone goes, just have a clan fixer spam AoE snare into an Omni blob and OS away, chances are you'll catch a lot of Omni that way.

[Hacre]

Resorting to insults now eh hacre? I don't blame you. I have that effect on whiners.

Point out where I insult you in that post and I'll PayPal 50 bucks to the account of your choice.

Doesn't that basically translate to 'Omni SB is overpowered because Omni plan more'?

Nothing stops Clan RL's from planning who will SB in what order if an Omni SB's them all...

As far as AoE snaring everyone goes, just have a clan fixer spam AoE snare into an Omni blob and OS away, chances are you'll catch a lot of Omni that way.

Repeat after me: Omni SB root can be spammed, the Clan SB root remover cannot. Omni SB root can be spammed, the Clan SB root remover cannot...Omni SB root....

[Armus]

Point out where I insult you in that post and I'll PayPal 50 bucks to the account of your choice.



Repeat after me: Omni SB root can be spammed, the Clan SB root remover cannot. Omni SB root can be spammed, the Clan SB root remover cannot...Omni SB root....

Just give up Hacre. There is just too much ignorance here to conduct a discussion that will get us anywhere. Still after many years even the pro's don't know basic SB mechanics and they are clueless as to how things play out in the field. You just can't argue with ppl like that.