Map design suggestion for Funcom and for mapmakers

[Inocybe]

(IC)
This is an open map design suggestion for Rubi-Ka cartographers.

One of the most notable things I have observed during my time spent exploring Rubi-Ka, and helping guide others lost on their travels, is that many Rubi-Kans are unable to fully grasp the numerical coordinates system currently used as travel directions. No matter how hard you try to teach them or how hard they try to learn, they are just unable to apply the use of numerical coordinates for travel. And it is not because these people are stupid, it is simply because their brains are wired differently.

So while not everyone can get a handle on the numerical coordinates system, the one thing most people are capable of handling is - a simple flat visual mapping reference. Whenever brains are not wired for trigonometry or spatial perception, it is almost always assured they can handle the opposite - visual cognition.

So to aid travel around Rubi-Ka, I propose the integration of a simple alpha-numerical X,Y-axis grid that overlays the planetmap. Anyone is capable of understanding the simple concept of 'move from square A1 towards square C4'.

A faintly-lined grid of squares is the key element that helps to imprint a 'visual mental map' which their brains can grasp easily whereas travel directions like "go to 2025x758 SAV" would have been disorienting.

It is my hope that such a simple concept as an alpha-numerical X,Y-axis reference overlay like this will help to improve travel for many Rubi-Kans and make it a more enriching experience.

Safe journeys, fellow Rubi-Kans. I look forward to the day we can say something like: "let's meet in A5, Southern Artery Valley".

Inocybe Matusz
Explorer
Atlantean

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[FireC]

I had real trouble with this all as well... and I'd support anything that makes it easier to understand for *everyone*.

One person some time back (thanks Rhyz) was able to find a way to explain it to me so that I got it finally.

Draw a compass on a little post it and stick it on the side of the monitor then mark the directions:
North is +
East is +
South is -
West is -

When using coordinates the first number is East and West, second is North and South. Say you're in 500, 400 and need to get to 200, 600... you look at your compass drawing and go, oh need to make the first number go smaller so I need to go to west, and need to get the second go bigger so that means north. So you'll need to go NWish and check coordinates once in a while to adjust accordingly.

If you know someone who can't get the coords *at all* try this with them .

/me hates numbers

[Mharc]

Wonderful suggestion, Ino!

[Hamini]

yes i agree completely.. =D

*bump*

[Inocybe]

^bump

[Bionitrous]

C4 is the same as 2025X768 only the C is the 2025 and the 4 is the 768. I guess it's easier for people to remember that numbers go left and right and letters go up and down ... or vice versa.

It's a great idea, though for the player-made maps. It would introduce the same differing degrees of granularity that we have with 'earth-maps'. Central Park in New York City might be at 40° 47' North Latitude and 73° 58' West Longitude .... but it's also somewhere inside H9 in yer Rand McNally Atlas.

Many people can't even grasp the 'H9' concept. You gotta tell them 'Run to the big tree and then you'll see a fire hydrant off in the distance. Go to that and then head down the street that has the funny purple house on the corner ...'

Point being there aren't enough landmarks to be able to give people proper directions. The road system is inadequate at best outside Omni territories and fair to passable within Omni lands. For example, I can tell you how to get from 20K to Treepine pretty easily.

[Saletor]

Additionally, I believe that having a system where a coordinate is inputed and the game automatically points you straight toward that coordinate would be a good addition.

[Inocybe]

The underlying hope behind my proposal is really to aid travel for as many players as possible.

So it might be wishful thinking on my part, don't know if it's possible but ...
It would be wonderful if either FC designers and/or the leading mapmakers could get together to work out universal parameters for the alpha-numerical overlay? That way A5 is exactly the same location in the zone no matter whose map is being used.

[___________Munkeezon]

Hi Ino,

Nice idea/alternative that would make the current system more bearable.

When the fixer grid went in, and third party maps with grid coords became widely distributed we did exactly this. "To get to the raid meeting place to sw of 5L in the zone... Or "we're to the SE of the "T" in 'Mort'.

I agree SL needs more landmarks, though I can't imagine this happening as it is already so meticulously detailed compared to Rubi-ka. Signposts would be a nice addition too.

Only challenge I could see is how to chop up the dividing lines. One entire area like Elysium, has multiple playfields, sometimes cut up on very odd slices. Do you map A-Z over the whole area and let portions of it reside in different zones? Or is there A-Z for each playfield? (I would push for entire areas)

Is A-Z enough divisions? Some areas are smaller. Should A-Z be more tightly gridded in those and more coarsly in larger ones? It would be nice if the dividing lines were kept the same width apart to judge distance imho.

What of some areas that curve and wind around? This sort of coordinate system mapped over a 'C' shaped island would be kind of odd but I guess it still works.

-- Munkee

[MissMaul]

This is a very, very good idea.

[Amosco]

The only drawback that I can see to this is based on my personal experience using Dovve's Map. I can't see the entire map on my monitor at one time, unless I use the zoomed out Whompah map.

Using that map, the "A2" style of map marking might not provide me with close enough of a target to find what I'm looking for. In order to get better detail of locations in our coordinates, we would have to use the close up map, and this would mean that I wouldn't be able to read the coordinates, which would probably be printed to the sides and top and bottom of the map. There would have to be a plan to allow me to see the coordinates on (perhaps) a zone by zone basis.

Does that make any sense? I think my explanation confused ME a little bit!

[___________Metalhand]

Great idea Inocybe!

As I was reading your suggestion, I had a thought (atrox's do get thoughts once in a great while )... what about a pop-up that appears over your cursor when you pass it over the world map. The pop-up would show the x,y coordinates as you move it around. If the code's done right, it would work for any zoom level of the map. I think it would be much easier moving your cusor over the map and seeing the coordinates change than trying to do the "landmark" dance.

Unfortunately, I don't see my idea happening anytime soon, so your idea Inocybe is the best. Good work.

[Inocybe]

Originally posted by Munkeezon
Hi Ino,

Nice idea/alternative that would make the current system more bearable.

When the fixer grid went in, and third party maps with grid coords became widely distributed we did exactly this. "To get to the raid meeting place to sw of 5L in the zone... Or "we're to the SE of the "T" in 'Mort'.

I agree SL needs more landmarks, though I can't imagine this happening as it is already so meticulously detailed compared to Rubi-ka. Signposts would be a nice addition too.

Only challenge I could see is how to chop up the dividing lines. One entire area like Elysium, has multiple playfields, sometimes cut up on very odd slices. Do you map A-Z over the whole area and let portions of it reside in different zones? Or is there A-Z for each playfield? (I would push for entire areas)

Is A-Z enough divisions? Some areas are smaller. Should A-Z be more tightly gridded in those and more coarsly in larger ones? It would be nice if the dividing lines were kept the same width apart to judge distance imho.

What of some areas that curve and wind around? This sort of coordinate system mapped over a 'C' shaped island would be kind of odd but I guess it still works.

-- Munkee

The overlay grid doesn't need to cover A-Z.
We don't really need a 26x26 graph of tiny squares, that's overkill.

The parameters are already there, already ingame. It's what the ingame coordinates derive from - what the original map designer plotted. You know, the 001x001 (X,Y flat axis when not counting height) location thingy.

The 'universal parameters' I was hoping for is one that many mapmakers can agree to use so that the alpha-numerical grid overlay is composed of the same block size and based off the existing mapping parameters and coordinates system. Toss in the metric system (what FC uses for AO) as base and that would be a step towards that 'universal parameters' hope of mine.

Some Rubi-Ka zones are small, some are bigger. But none extend much beyond 001x001 - 4000x4000+. And not all 001x001 location points in any RK zone can be accessed ingame nor 3000x4000 ones either as those extreme location points may lie outside actual ingame zone borders.
That doesn't matter for travel purposes. Accessing the extreme location points isn't the objective. The objective, and the hope, is that the alpha-numerical grid overlay of any zone must necessarily use the same 001X001 location point (of that particular zone) as reference X,Y start point.

So you see, based on existing ingame location points, use of universal parameters to determine the block size within the alpha-numerical grid overlay will help a lot. The block size will reflect the same distance no matter what planetmap/inset map is being used!

So some small zones will only show maybe A-F while bigger zones maybe A-K ... but the block size within the alpha-numerical grid overlay will always reflect the same distance where ingame Rubi-Ka is concerned.

As for Shadowlands, I cannot comment on the mapping issues for the moment. Shadowlands is still undergoing Beta and NDA is still in place. But let's not worry about Shadowlands yet, Rubi-Ka travel has been, and still is, an on-going issue for many people. Let's help them overcome the X,Y,Z coordinates system - let's help them enjoy not getting lost

[Inocybe]

Originally posted by Amosco
The only drawback that I can see to this is based on my personal experience using Dovve's Map. I can't see the entire map on my monitor at one time, unless I use the zoomed out Whompah map.

Using that map, the "A2" style of map marking might not provide me with close enough of a target to find what I'm looking for. In order to get better detail of locations in our coordinates, we would have to use the close up map, and this would mean that I wouldn't be able to read the coordinates, which would probably be printed to the sides and top and bottom of the map. There would have to be a plan to allow me to see the coordinates on (perhaps) a zone by zone basis.

Does that make any sense? I think my explanation confused ME a little bit!

I think I may understand what you're getting at.
If I understand correctly the concern you're raising, then this is my response ...

The alpha-numerical grid overlay isn't quite a 'target, zoom-in' scope feature, that's what the X,Y,Z coordinates already does. The trouble is ... a lot of people need to have visual references (visual cognition as opposed to mathematical) to head to that X, Y, Z spot in the first place.


Let me use an exaggerated analogy ...

SuperFab Computer Shop
ElectronicHaven Shopping Mall
Sagosago City

(A) The alpha-numerical grid overlay represents a bunch of street/directional signs that leads to the ElectronicHaven shopping mall in Sagosago City.

(B) The current coordinates system represents the address (including the shop location ie. shop unit# and floor#) of the SuperFab Computer Shop in the ElectronicHaven shopping mall.

* Some people are able to use the full address (B) to head straight to SuperFab Computer Shop.

* Other people need to have big street signs as visual guide while they make thair way through city to get to that shopping mall. Once they are in the shopping mall, they then look out (scan visually) for the shop sign of SuperFab Computer Shop. These people need (A) to get to (B) because (A) provides the visual handle their brains can interpret and process comfortably.

So depending on how one's own brain is wired ...
It is possible to use either (A) or (B) ... OR ... both (A)+(B) to travel to places.

---

As for mapmakers doing big maps, they do it mostly with the goal of including pertainent details. There's a range of big and small maps thankfully available to us, just use whichever suits you. Big maps, inset map features, etc are the creative work of the mapmakers themselves. What is important to remember is that my proposal doesn't interfere with what they want to present in their maps.

I am not duly concerned with what ingame maps players actually use, I am primarily concerned about players not being able to travel efficiently with the current coordinates system. The alpha-numerical grid overlay is to aid travel without infringing on the creativity of mapmakers - that is the underlying thrust behind the proposal.

[KaelienAO]

I would agree with this as long as they used this to supplement the current system rather than replace. At the moment, you can take the 4 numbers, send them over to help bot and find, within a few feet, where you want to go. The problem with going to an A-Z 1-X system is that you've basically just lowered your resolution by a considerable amount. The system that used to get you within inches of your target now can only put you in the right football field. As big as zones are, this would be very very frustrating.

Furthermore, getting directions would be WAY off. If you needed to go from A1 to C4 and you started heading in the right direction, how do you know if you're even HEADED in the right direction? Instead of aiming at a fixed dot, you're aiming at a HUGE square of the map. Once you start getting close to the target, it just becomes more innacurate.

For large worlds, you really need to be able to get to places accurately. Fine resolution is needed for actually finding places rather than a better system for getting into the sort of remotely close general area.

[______________Ziknus]

I totally agree with this, I constantly fly around hitting F9 to see what direction I should fly to get to a location.

But if this cant be done, what about a field where u can type in the cords u wish to go to, and then the compas shows the way, just like when u have a mission!

[Inocybe]

Originally posted by Kaelien
I would agree with this as long as they used this to supplement the current system rather than replace.

There is *no* replacement. My proposal for an overlay or embedded gridlines which works together with *any* map, 3rd party or not.

Originally posted by Inocybe As for mapmakers doing big maps, they do it mostly with the goal of including pertainent details. There's a range of big and small maps thankfully available to us, just use whichever suits you. Big maps, inset map features, etc are the creative work of the mapmakers themselves. What is important to remember is that my proposal doesn't interfere with what they want to present in their maps.

[Inocybe]

Originally posted by Kaelien
The problem with going to an A-Z 1-X system is that you've basically just lowered your resolution by a considerable amount. The system that used to get you within inches of your target now can only put you in the right football field. As big as zones are, this would be very very frustrating.

Furthermore, getting directions would be WAY off. If you needed to go from A1 to C4 and you started heading in the right direction, how do you know if you're even HEADED in the right direction? Instead of aiming at a fixed dot, you're aiming at a HUGE square of the map. Once you start getting close to the target, it just becomes more innacurate.

For large worlds, you really need to be able to get to places accurately. Fine resolution is needed for actually finding places rather than a better system for getting into the sort of remotely close general area.

What I'm proposing is both accurate and directional. The 001x001 location of the existing coordinates system AND the alpha-numerical grid *has* to be the same point.

A graph with alpha-numerical index has already been proven to be visually cognitive. This is the visual aid for the *directional* part. Once anyone sees it, it is instantly recognisable like a chess board or checkerboard. There is no *learning* for the brain to do ... unlike the current numbers-only coordinates. It may take me paragraphs trying to explain this, but anyone can understand it in a micro-second once they see it.

Originally posted by Inocybe The overlay grid doesn't need to cover A-Z. We don't really need a 26x26 graph of tiny squares, that's overkill.

The parameters are already there, already ingame. It's what the ingame coordinates derive from - what the original map designer plotted. You know, the 001x001 (X,Y flat axis when not counting height) location thingy.

The 'universal parameters' I was hoping for is one that many mapmakers can agree to use so that the alpha-numerical grid overlay is composed of the same block size and based off the existing mapping parameters and coordinates system. Toss in the metric system (what FC uses for AO) as base and that would be a step towards that 'universal parameters' hope of mine.

Some Rubi-Ka zones are small, some are bigger. But none extend much beyond 001x001 - 4000x4000+. And not all 001x001 location points in any RK zone can be accessed ingame nor 3000x4000 ones either as those extreme location points may lie outside actual ingame zone borders.
That doesn't matter for travel purposes. Accessing the extreme location points isn't the objective. The objective, and the hope, is that the alpha-numerical grid overlay of any zone must necessarily use the same 001X001 location point (of that particular zone) as reference X,Y start point.

So you see, based on existing ingame location points, use of universal parameters to determine the block size within the alpha-numerical grid overlay will help a lot. The block size will reflect the same distance no matter what planetmap/inset map is being used!

So some small zones will only show maybe A-F while bigger zones maybe A-K ... but the block size within the alpha-numerical grid overlay will always reflect the same distance where ingame Rubi-Ka is concerned.

[Inocybe]

Originally posted by Xinjin
I totally agree with this, I constantly fly around hitting F9 to see what direction I should fly to get to a location.

But if this cant be done, what about a field where u can type in the cords u wish to go to, and then the compas shows the way, just like when u have a mission!

Oh, that sounds a neat idea. You should send that in as a suggestion to Funcom

[KaelienAO]

Originally posted by Inocybe
Safe journeys, fellow Rubi-Kans. I look forward to the day we can say something like: "let's meet in A5, Southern Artery Valley".
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Well, I was referring more to this. It's sort of the equivalent of saying "Hey, let's go to the movies, we can meet in Germany". Really, if players were interested, all they would have to do is add this proposed grid to Dovves and start referring to it.