Friday with Means - March 5th, 2010 - It isn't a sprint.

Lol @ Borrow Reflect, talk about going from the sublime (as it is currently) to the ridiculous (making it a nano that will hardly ever, if at all, be used).

I do find myself wondering about the logic that goes into changes in nanos. I mean, apparently FC agree with the Soldiers that current BR is OP, but omg getting 30%+30% while not completely stripping reflects is also OP (60% reflects is OP is it Soldiers? Kindly step forth and surrender your TMS/AMS then), however having your nanopool ripped in the manner of the current GTH proposal and kept empty more aggressively than current GTH, is perfectly fine?

Lol, yeah, all makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by cbus97

Overwrite, as in cancel RRFE? At least make it so traders can keep RRFE in their NCU, but the BR buff component is a hostile nano and can't be cancelled. That way the trader is taking a risk, but it only lasts 10 minutes.

Otherwise I don't see traders wanting to use very often, since even the best scenario will give you a 10 minute RRFE, and what's the point of that if you already have regular RRFE?

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if they keep rrfe it means theyll be able to get rrfe and debuff people AT WILL, they realize all we complain about is the fact they could keep rrfe before, they shoudnt, im sorry, it is OP.

this means traders selfbuffed (omg self buffed pvp?) they will be able to have reflects and not be so squishy, while not make them OP cause they cant stack rrfe, if you ask me, as a soldier, this new version of BR is pure sex and im sure all solds will agree

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Originally Posted by Hacre

Lol @ Borrow Reflect, talk about going from the sublime (as it is currently) to the ridiculous (making it a nano that will hardly ever, if at all, be used).

I do find myself wondering about the logic that goes into changes in nanos. I mean, apparently FC agree with the Soldiers that current BR is OP, but omg getting 30%+30% while not completely stripping reflects is also OP (60% reflects is OP is it Soldiers? Kindly step forth and surrender your TMS/AMS then), however having your nanopool ripped in the manner of the current GTH proposal and kept empty more aggressively than current GTH, is perfectly fine?

Lol, yeah, all makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

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i will surrender AMS anyday we can get something else :) we are not debuffers, its not the same at all tbh

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Originally Posted by Racatti

Ratio between the negative and positive skills on drains is around 1.18, ratio on this BR is 1.5, should make it -30/+25 to have it closer to the ratio of drains.

Not a lot will give up RRFE for this one. Especially not after the solja told us to go to hell, having asked for RRFE for the 10th time on the same BS.

For 25% I'd be likely to give up my RRFE, for 20%, no thanks.

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Its the other way around, it debuffs the target for 20% and buffs the trader for 30%.

Woohoo. I like the BR changes. Thx Means.

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Originally Posted by Tinypain

Well I'm sure you realize this already but I'm thinking they really want to push this nano towards very circumstantial on it's use. At TL5 I can see this being heavily used in certain BS situations. I can see this rarely being used at TL7, unless there is some greater strategy to it (i.e. 6 people teamed, trader taking sacrafice on his own reflect to rip reflect off the teams target, knowing he has a doc watching his back ect..).

I think it's a good thing. But there could always be a hardcap on reflect for non-soldiers so traders can keep rrfe? Say...trader has rrfe and they rip TMS/AMS off a soldier to get 20% back to them. Maybe hardcap at 40% or 45% so they keep rrfe and the buff still hits for maximum benefit against the target it just doesn't give maximum benefit to the caster because of the hardcap.

Idk if that makes sense but it sounded ok in my head :D

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The problem is the overwrite. Who in their right mind is going to want to lose RRFE, with a 1 hour duration, for a 10minute reflect buff of 30% or less, guaranteed? That's a self-nerf.

Hell, even if the trader is using a graft and drains someone else with a graft, it's still a self-nerf.

I can appreciate using the approach of drain more, get less, to keep in line with the general thinking of other drains. The thing is, none of those other drains result in a self-nerf in many of the scenarios it would be used:

1. Trader has rrfe: Guaranteed self-nerf every time with BR (Best case scenario is trading a 1 hour duration for a 10 minute one)

2. Trader is teamed with soldier for reflect aura: guaranteed self-nerf almost every time unless the target has 61% or better reflects

3. Trader has engi reflects: Guaranteed self-nerf unless the target has 51% or better reflects (and then it's still a nerf on duration)

4. Trader has engi reflect aura: Guaranteed self-nerf unless the target has 51% or better reflects

5. Trader has graft: Guaranteed self-nerf unless the target has 21% or better reflects (and even then still a nerf in duration)

6. Trader has no reflects: hey it's all win/win! 10 minutes of *some* reflect /disco

The tractor pwns.

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Originally Posted by Hacre

Pointless Rant:

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Originally Posted by Means

We did not have time with the 1000's of characters transferring this week to give GTH the same attention but it will get another make-over early next week (we have been reading the feeback and agree that the current TestLive implementation doesn't cut it.).

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What the hell is happening to you people actually reading stuff before you go off half cocked about things?

Ps, Hacre, you do realize that BR is not only targeting soldiers now but every player with reflects?

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Originally Posted by heartless888

if they keep rrfe it means theyll be able to get rrfe and debuff people AT WILL, they realize all we complain about is the fact they could keep rrfe before, they shoudnt, im sorry, it is OP.

this means traders selfbuffed (omg self buffed pvp?) they will be able to have reflects and not be so squishy, while not make them OP cause they cant stack rrfe, if you ask me, as a soldier, this new version of BR is pure sex and im sure all solds will agree

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Of course they'll agree, you're only going to be hit with it once a week, maybe, and only if the Trader doesn't have a willing Soldier on their side to give them RRFE.

Heaven forbid debuffs land on you, jeez.

However, congrats to you and other Soldiers for getting 2 out of 3 of your nemeses nerf batted, all that remains now is getting Engineers stripped of NSD and blockers. Chop chop.

(I am open to suggestions as to how you pulled it all off as GTH still needs some attention).

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Originally Posted by Technogen

What the hell is happening to you people actually reading stuff before you go off half cocked about things?

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I agree, read my post again.

Self ownage for the win, Techno? I did say -current- proposal.

I don't really care what Means' comment was about the current proposal, it's still the current proposal and it's still utterly stupid.

Moreover, it's a current, stupid proposal, that made it through however many people to be delivered to the Professionals, AS a proposal, instead of someone with half a braincell uttering the words "erm, hang on a minute, duration aside that's EVEN MORE OP than current GTH!".

Besides, given the newly proposed Borrow Reflect, I don't hold my breath on an exciting change to GTH. Well, actually, from an NT perspective, I do, because if BR is anything to go by, it's going to drain me of 1k nano once per hour.

However I'm not in the business of wanting to see other professions nerfed to the stone age just for my own viewing pleasure, so my point that you berated me for, still stands.

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Originally Posted by Dancingrage

Was hoping to see some sort of input on what would keep MPs from up and rioting on me in the MP forums, looks like I'm wearing Body Armor to the forums today!.

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ha :D

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Originally Posted by lusthorne

The problem is the overwrite. Who in their right mind is going to want to lose RRFE, with a 1 hour duration, for a 10minute reflect buff of 30% or less, guaranteed? That's a self-nerf.

Hell, even if the trader is using a graft and drains someone else with a graft, it's still a self-nerf.

I can appreciate using the approach of drain more, get less, to keep in line with the general thinking of other drains. The thing is, none of those other drains result in a self-nerf in many of the scenarios it would be used:

1. Trader has rrfe: Guaranteed self-nerf every time with BR (Best case scenario is trading a 1 hour duration for a 10 minute one)

2. Trader is teamed with soldier for reflect aura: guaranteed self-nerf almost every time unless the target has 61% or better reflects

3. Trader has engi reflects: Guaranteed self-nerf unless the target has 51% or better reflects (and then it's still a nerf on duration)

4. Trader has engi reflect aura: Guaranteed self-nerf unless the target has 51% or better reflects

5. Trader has graft: Guaranteed self-nerf unless the target has 21% or better reflects (and even then still a nerf in duration)

6. Trader has no reflects: hey it's all win/win! 10 minutes of *some* reflect /disco

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This is why they should just cap everyone's reflect (except soldier and maybe keeper? Thinking DA..) to 40% and that way if you land this on a TMS/AMSed soldier you keep rrfe and you get a 10 minute buff for the +20% but only up to 40% is registered to the trader. That way it's win/win to use the nano but doesn't provide the trader with a totally OP borrowing of reflect and makes it way more feasible to use.

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Originally Posted by Hacre

Lol @ Borrow Reflect, talk about going from the sublime (as it is currently) to the ridiculous (making it a nano that will hardly ever, if at all, be used).

I do find myself wondering about the logic that goes into changes in nanos. I mean, apparently FC agree with the Soldiers that current BR is OP, but omg getting 30%+30% while not completely stripping reflects is also OP (60% reflects is OP is it Soldiers? Kindly step forth and surrender your TMS/AMS then), however having your nanopool ripped in the manner of the current GTH proposal and kept empty more aggressively than current GTH, is perfectly fine?

Lol, yeah, all makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

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GTH will be changed, if you read what means said they didnt have time to change it, they only changed BR, he said GTH will have a new version next monday

"Important message****************************

Let me start by saying "LOG IN YOUR ALTS!!!" Remember that on Monday-ish there will be a wipe of characters below level5 that have not been logged in for more than a year. Level 173 and below characters that have not been in game for 18 months will lose their names. Anything 174 and above that has not logged in for four years will also lose their name. I think we have been pretty good with holding on to ancient artifacts...but it is time for a little spring cleaning.
*"

This statement implies that it's the characters that have to be logged in - each one individually. The email that was sent out recently seemed to imply that any activity - on any character in a given account - would constitute activity for all characters under the account. Which is it?

Do I need to log in every toon on every account to keep the name from being wiped or just any 1 character from those accounts?

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Originally Posted by heartless888

GTH will be changed, if you read what means said they didnt have time to change it, they only changed BR, he said GTH will have a new version next monday

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My last post applies to you too.

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Originally Posted by Technogen

Its the other way around, it debuffs the target for 20% and buffs the trader for 30%.

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Indeed, but that just makes it even worse.

In order to have RRFE-like reflect, you'll have to BR an AMSed soldier, who will just laugh at you still having 67% reflect, while you give up 1h duration on your 30% buff.

In any other cases, you just nerfing your RRFE for zero benefit. 10s makes sure it's not worths using.

Nice render! ^^
About the reflect, why not make it easy on yourself and just about the same result: The Trader borrows 50% (35%?) of the reflect% value (rounded down).

/Y

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Originally Posted by Hacre

Moreover, it's a current, stupid proposal, that made it through however many people to be delivered to the Professionals

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Actually we never saw the new BR/GTH design from the devs until last week when you all did.

Stop being narrow minded about things, means said twice that they are looking at improving it's balance. You're ranting that they are looking at addressing things but you're all mad they havnt addressed yours to your liking yet despite the fact that they said they will refine it more before it goes live...

So far it sounds like a "decent" compromise - both soldiers and traders are bitching about it for the same reasons, but putting different twists on them.

What I don't like about BR is that it runs counter to every other trader drain. When you have a higher skill and get drained by a trader, you tend to benefit more from having a higher skill. This is not the case. They might rework other trader drains to function like this, but then you've gone back to the old school "less is more" reasoning like it was with HP.

Can we not devolve this thread into a brawl by page three, please? Wait until at least page six.

(For those who have not recently been to the Sarcasm Detector Repair Shop, I don't mean actually start a fight then, just stick your heads in a bucket of ice water and cool off already.)