Friday with Means - November 26th, 2010 - Spreadsheet Assault

[Kopecz]

RK1 exploit drama derails! So when is this thread getting migrated to DoA?

[If6was9]

BTW, serious question for Means (for a change).

I'm concerned about the game performance with the upcoming graphics engine change.

Few days ago, I got "come back" invitation for AoC. I took the offer and I was unpleasantly surprised how awful game performs in combination with "only" 4 GB of RAM and Windows 7 (64 bit, if it makes any difference), compared to what it used to be on Windows XP, with the same RAM amount (a year ago?).

Is AO expected to experience the same problems on my hardware/software setup (hey, I expect it to actually run faster and less sluggish, pretty please), or is this engine going to be more "lightweight" in comparison to current AoC one?

SocioPorn kludge. Clean your bilges.

[lusthorne]

I disagree with absolutely every single thing you just said. Right from the need to apologize for the balance work not coming when expected all the way to the end. Does your post represent the kind of feeback you feel that I am supposed to take seriously? "Kill ALL twinks" "Sell 220/30/70". I don't even want to start on any of these as you are way beyond reason at this point. Do you seriously think anything that is currently available in the store gives any advantage to a new player over your current characters? You more than likely detected NW action FROM OUTSIDE THE GAME...please give us all a break here. Killing "4 players" wasn't a full team? Where to even begin?

I'm AM sorry that you received an in-game tell from a stupid person. We'll begin work on some kind of "stupid" filter immediately.

While a lot of that post did sound a bit exaggerated and "end-of-the-world-ish," there is much validity behind the distaste in selling VP and Tokens via the item shop. Both are direct shortcuts to significant character power boosting equipment. It is irrelevant that players can also obtain the same things without using the item shop.

I'll grant you people are more likely to be forgiving regarding tokens given how comparatively easy it is to build up tokens in the game, but VP is another ballpark entirely. Selling VP effectively sinks a chunk of LE into obsolescence. Combined with yesdrop Ofab gear it becomes a conduit for a player endowed with spare funding to convert cash into credits.

Admittedly a complete set of Ofab equipment is not ideal for any character at endgame. On the other hand, most endgame setups do utilize at least one piece. Ordinarily, these pieces would be earned through time and effort by the players. Allowing the purchase of VP effectively says to any player "hey, don't worry about jumping through the in-game hoops to earn your sought after items, just buy your VP and get the items with no effort at all!"

The micro-transaction model works when it isn't selling outright power to players. Social gear is not power, XP-boosts are not power (yes they shorten leveling time overall but players still have to earn their levels). Selling Tokens/VP, on the other hand, *is* selling power, something many players feel is essentially a slap in the face.

In fact, were the Token/VP items changed to act similarly to the XP boosts, a lot of the uproar would probably fizzle out. It is much more acceptable, in my opinion, to sell an item that boosts VP or Tokens gained by 15-20%.

[Deaconfrost]

Hi Dark,

I'm writing this message as someone who recently found and reported an exploit to FC.

Heres what happened...

1. I found an exploit
2. I petitioned that I had found an exploit
3. Within half an hour I was talking to a very nice GM about the problem
4. The problem was fixed for the next patch
5. I felt good seeing "we fixed several exploits" in the patch notes and knowing I had contributed.

It was pretty easy and the rules of exploits are very very clear, I did not talk to any of my guildies or anyone ingame about the exploit except the GM. Once I saw there was an exploit I petitioned it as an honest player.

Sorry your experience has been different but thats YOUR experience, the system on my end is working just fine.

[Jerusha]

It is much more acceptable, in my opinion, to sell an item that boosts VP or Tokens gained by 15-20%.

I agree to that.
And as alternative, maybe a few lower versions? Like 1000 VP for leveling toons to get HUDs? Thats the most annoying thing. I PvP in higher levels is okay, because you can join a fight regulary. But in lowr levels it is just a huge timesink to get into a round and earning some VP.
So combining Boosters and some lower Versions like 1000 VP for a reasonable price, but still too much to stack it would be the way to go. And ofc both nodrop.
regards

[Deaconfrost]

Oh yeah and I forgot my QQ to add to the pile...

Means, PLEASE completely split PVM and PVP mechanics. PLEASE.

I dont PVP, never have and never will unless its Red Tower defense or Tara Zerg. So why should I be continually nerfed over what happens in PVP?

I know you guys can do this since there are the LE nanos that only work in PVP. Make all nanos, weapons, perks etc have 2 values instead of sharing one set?

For example... if target is MOB, weapon damage = (much improved range than now)... if target is human, weapon damage = (whatever is good for PVP)

Same with nanos and perks and procs... I'm just about to hit 220 on my Soldier and you have just nerfed the hell out of him in PVM to satisfy the demands of PVP. That is not fair to either side. This has been going on for a loooooong time too, why does my adv have to wait 25secs to turn someone into a parrot? Oh cos it was being exploited in PVP. So PVM had to get nerfed into waiting 25 seconds cos of PVP? Is that fair?

So split values so PVMers can get a much needed boost in damage which would reduce the boredom of several high hp mob zones like alappa, albatraum, or just any GREEN mob in Inferno that takes 5mins to kill.

PVPers will also benefit because instead of trying to balance profs in PVP AND having to factor in PVM values as well, you can just focus on balancing PVP as it is. Also make a PVP tab (like social tab) so people can equip their OFAB pvp armor or w/e they use there, as well as split perk points into 40 for PVM perks, and 20 for PVP perks (or w/e). OFAB armor and weapons should do gimp PVM damage since they are PVP weapons.

I've never understood AO PVP... I'm melee but I have to raise ranged weapons and ranged specials to compete? errrr Wot? And you stealth-nerfed the sacrosanct staff from 25m to 5? So the one PVM weapon that I could use ranged without spending ip on useless ranged skills when Im melee... you nerfed.

Oh that reminds me, one more QQ. UN-NERF MELEE RANGE!! What did you guys do in the last few patches? My MA and Keep now have to be literally standing on the mob for a special attack to work???

ok can I get some cheese with this whine plox?

[Mekh]

...snip...
Do you seriously think anything that is currently available in the store gives any advantage to a new player over your current characters?
...snip...

Step 1:
Shop sells Tokens and VP = easy acquirement of Token board and Ofab armor for RL money
You still have to get the basic token board (Neutral here, so correct me if I'm wrong) as well as upgrades for the Ofab


Step 2:
Lead bots for sale in shop... You still have to get the rest though...

Step 3:
Full blown AI armor sets, upgraded weapons, symbiants, high ql implants for sale in shop... All "yes-drop"



Not a single one of the above options gives a new player any advantage above people who have played the game for a long time, since everyone can acquire their stuff via normal game play including massive grinding.
I'm pretty dasm sure that most can agree (hopefully you included) that step 2 and 3 are not acceptable, but....



Let's then just pretend that you actually agree... What's the difference between step 1 compared to 2 & 3 and where's the limit for how far you will go?


The more I think about it, the more I dislike the route you took.

[Siyra]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the route I think you're going to take.

Stop making assumptions, deal with what we have and quit acting as if everyone is just out there to lie to you. This applies to a lot of people.

Just because they're selling VP and Tokens now doesn't mean they'll ever sell VBs, or Combined and jumping to that conclusion yourself and then getting mad at them for it only portrays yourself as an utter fool. Get mad at them if they actually do it, don't get mad because they might do it based upon some perceived pattern you think you found in their actions.

[Marshalart]

I have to point out to all the people complaining about VP/tokens being sold. Sure, its selling power. But power ain't coming cheap. 'Buying' your 2500 token board (or, at least, the tokens for it) is going to set you back a 2k pack and a 500 pack, costing 8640 FP; also lets assume the average endgame toon might want 50k VP to finish a setup (obviously some less, maybe getting extra pieces for pvp/pvm swapping, seems a fair assumption imo), for the 50k VP pack its another 9600 FP.

Now lets go onto FCs website and check some prices... a 6k FP pack is 50 USD. So in order to 'buy' your endgame toon his 2.5k tokens and 50k VP worth of ofab, you need 3 of these 6k packs. Thats 150 USD. Lets also not forget that these FP are spendable ONCE. You can buy the tokens/VP for one character. Now, I dunno about anyone else, but I'm not likely to spend 150 bucks (or in my case closer to 190 bucks) on one characters ofab/tokens, unless my weekly income was like leaving me with 1 grand after typical expenditure.

Now assume I open a new account and PL 5 toons to 220. I now need to buy their tokens/ofab. Personally, I'm not going to spend 750 USD on getting these toons their ofab and tokens. Still have to farm out ai armor/weapons/huds/deck stuff/symbs blah blah.

So yes, it is selling power, but at what cost? Looks very pricey to me. Personally I would never use it consistently unless i was raking in a couple mil a year. I might, however, if I had a little spare one month, get a toon thats fallen behind caught up. Which is likely to happen once in a blue moon.

But thats just me of course. We all know everyone who plays AO is happy to spend 750 USD to pimp out their 5 220 toons. Oh yeah, and what are they getting out of their 150 bucks per toon? A token board and a couple pieces of ofab. Thats a miniscule fraction of everything needed to complete an endgame toon. So you may as well farm it, cause theres still a **** load of other stuff left to farm.

[Crowena]

Stop making assumptions, deal with what we have and quit acting as if everyone is just out there to lie to you. This applies to a lot of people.

Just because they're selling VP and Tokens now doesn't mean they'll ever sell VBs, or Combined and jumping to that conclusion yourself and then getting mad at them for it only portrays yourself as an utter fool. Get mad at them if they actually do it, don't get mad because they might do it based upon some perceived pattern you think you found in their actions.

I think that the people who are worried about what they might sell in the future are people who have extensive experience of how the companies operate. And since they are already selling VP and Tokens it is really small step to add more items there. Before combined armor though I would expect them to sell non-combined AI armor because, well, that is not quite as powerful... and they can charge you twice!

I guess the bigger question is: Why would they NOT add combined AI armor and/or other hard to get/expensive items?

[Siyra]

I guess the bigger question is: Why would they NOT add combined AI armor and/or other hard to get/expensive items?

Because they know it'd hurt the game more then it'd help.

The main issue with all this, debating, if you can call it that; is it's based around people idolizing grinds, tokens and VP were never hard to get, many people could even get tokens for no effort thanks to vet points. But suddenly Funcom gets a bit of cash for tokens and it's the end of the world because it will cascade into bigger problems?

I agree that there are companies out there who fall down and just keep rolling making things worse the longer they're around but not all do and labeling Funcom as one who will, and getting preemptively mad/annoyed at them for something they haven't even done yet, is beyond asinine.

[Namiru]

BTW, serious question for Means (for a change).

I'm concerned about the game performance with the upcoming graphics engine change.

Few days ago, I got "come back" invitation for AoC. I took the offer and I was unpleasantly surprised how awful game performs in combination with "only" 4 GB of RAM and Windows 7 (64 bit, if it makes any difference), compared to what it used to be on Windows XP, with the same RAM amount (a year ago?).

Is AO expected to experience the same problems on my hardware/software setup (hey, I expect it to actually run faster and less sluggish, pretty please), or is this engine going to be more "lightweight" in comparison to current AoC one?

Actually, AO already HAS this problem near the bottom end.

Due to my desktop becomming a doorstop over the summer, I am currently playing on my laptop, which is near the absolute minimum AO allows. Now, I've actually played this on two laptops, one with Windows XP, and 2 GB of RAM and the other with Windows 7 and 4 GB ram. Same series of Intel internal video card.

Guess what?

AO performed better on the XP box than the W7 box, despite the fact that the W7 box had more RAM and a better processor. I could play AO on XP with 100% view distance with little to no lag, whereas I'm forced on the W7 machine to play at or near 0% view distance - which had the side effect of it looking like my toons have cataracts.

This is near the minimum of what AO allows. I suspect, with the new graphics engine, this difference will become more pronounced.

[Corneilla]

I have looked at a lot of the concerns that everyone has posted on here so far, the Profession heads & even Mr. Means himself. I think this new items-shop is a 50/50 on great idea / not so great but. I think of it as something that should have came into game way later on & attention should have been put into some serious issues with problems that have been around since the beginning of the game rather then vamping up into bigger & better things, its like cooking something on the stove & it burning & turning into ash, & just moving on rather then rushing back & making sure you don't set the entire house on fire; I am not referring to anything in particular I mean the game as a HOLE its self, I bet the older Generation players could sit here & say:

"I remember when THIS was around when I started, that was *random number of years* ago...& the issue is still here."

I know that NOT everything can get nipped in the butt all at once, but I think in order for Rubi-Ka to survive & Anarchy Online to live another 5 years I think FunCom should slow-down & expansions, add-on's (item-shop), revamps (the re-balance); fix some things like mob timers in areas that are now mission areas that had damned long spawn times which now make it harder for people to finish Solo daily missions (though I love the idea of daily missions!!!) for example the Mantis Queen, her timer Seems to be around 1 hour & 5 minutes or so, if anything, I would see the best upgrade for that is to more or less duplicate the area NEXT to the main area & make it an instance like regular missions with keys & such to help improve the success on a pretty darn hard area to begin with. A lot of the revamp things in game now are pretty cool but, most of you must admit, they could have been delayed to fix more larger issues in random things. Or fix the pretty bad pet-pathing, I have an MP & Engi but I don't like playing them due to the pets randomly running the wrong way to go to attack a mob OR running FARRR past it then coming back for it AFTER it gets out of attack range from me.

...

Or am I just nuts here concerned about the original problems rather then debugging newer ones?

[-Klod-]

SocioPorn kludge. Clean your bilges.

OK, that deals with your specific case. But, what about the rest of us?

[Phargus]

I guess the bigger question is: Why would they NOT add combined AI armor and/or other hard to get/expensive items?

Well it's not like they need to. Once the level boosts is ingame you can essentially buy anything except ai levels, research and 201-220 through the ingame shop. There might be an extra layer to obfuscate the transaction but FC is selling credits. Buy enough of them and you can get pretty much anything in the game if your wallet is fat enough. Either directly or by buying lootrights...

[blingoutyourdead]

2008: Waving grass
2010: Flying rocks

I love the smell of progress in the morning!

[Waylayer]

Movement keys work fine with new characters on my accounts / installations, and i just deleted my whole prefs folder to make doubly sure. The movement keys are all there by default on any old character or new character i create.

I am guessing the people who have issues are using custom UIs that mess with the key bind settings.

This is my experience at home. Any account logged into my PC (Custum UI) can't move until I bind the keys - accounts logged onto the machines belonging to my family, do not have this issue.

[Waylayer]

On a totally different note:

I have watched, with interest, the various iterations of the nano documents; and I have read much, certainly not all, of the player feedback associated with those changes.

While each nano document represents a significant change in how professions will work in the future; and, as such, not everyone is satisfied with the changes. Most of the released documents seem to have been accepted as a positive change. A noticeable exception is the document for "Fixers". While some "fluff" has been added, nobody (who posts in the fixer forum, at least) like the changes. In fact, the Fixer professional went so far as to state (paraphrased) "I have asked to be removed as a Fixer professional. I do not support any of these changes. I had not direct communication, with the Dev's, regarding any of this".

Perhaps the sky isn't falling; but Fixers see:

Hot's ticking half as often
Significant reduction in endgame defenses
Apparent increase in the ability to perk fixers
Only one "froob" castable defense buff
Further reduction of our "limited" taunt ability - as snares can't be spammed
Removal of the "emergency" portion of the "evac" nano line

Additionally, with most buffs becoming 4 hours in length, coupled with none of our buffs being terribly useful in the first place. Fixers feel that there still won't be any reason to bring them to the party.

Perhaps the sky isn't falling. Perhaps the total rebalnce still has mechanics we don't know about (not talking about gear here); but on the face of things, it would seem that you are gutting the class.

If there are other mechanics to consider, it might be nice to see something covering the "in concept" tm "bigger picture" tm.

I am looking forward to all that is on the AO horizon. I am just not certain that my oldest (not first) character will enjoy the view.

[Mekh]

Stop making assumptions, deal with what we have and quit acting as if everyone is just out there to lie to you. This applies to a lot of people.

Just because they're selling VP and Tokens now doesn't mean they'll ever sell VBs, or Combined and jumping to that conclusion yourself and then getting mad at them for it only portrays yourself as an utter fool. Get mad at them if they actually do it, don't get mad because they might do it based upon some perceived pattern you think you found in their actions.

Whatever you're on or are smoking.... It's clearly bad for your health.
I haven't acted or pretended that anyone at all is lying to me...


I set up the current scenario and two fictional one's and then I asked two questions that's all...
Feel free to answer them rather than flying off on a wild tangent with a response that seems no where near having any relation whatsoever to the post I made.


EDIT:
Honestly.... I personally see no difference at all between selling VP/Tokens or selling Lead bots used for AI armor sets, it's just a matter of a different price tag.
If I could accept VP/Tokens being sold, then I should also fully be able to accept AI armor or whatever being sold, because it's the exact same principle.
You're buying a shortcut through the games content for RL money, that's all.

[Siyra]

I haven't acted or pretended that anyone at all is lying to me...

I set up the current scenario and two fictional one's and then I asked two questions that's all...

Your questions are based upon the assumption that Funcom is lying when they said they wouldn't sell things like VBs. If you didn't believe they were lying then you'd not bother asking questions on how far they'd go because they already said.