The Economy isn't Broken

[Grandpa]

If a new player is prepared to team to do content, is able to become reasonably skilled (which has its own challenges, unrelated to the economy), and is prepared to play one of the cheaper-to-gear professions as their first toon, they will not run into financial trouble.

A Doctor who gains their first billion in about two months will not lack for funds for the best endgame gear in the game, provided they are willing to do content, and will not buy lootrights for NoDrop items.

It is worth mention that a raiding city is now extremely cheap.

Pretending that laziness is a necessity is fallacious. Anarchy Online has one of the most complicated, confusing, and ill-explained-by-the-Game-Company RPG systems out there. One has to embrace mystery and complexity to keep being drawn to the game.

A new player is going to gimp their toon. They'll then either leave, or reroll to make a better toon the second-time around. I don't think anyone really approached AO with the mindset that they will make the best ganker this game has ever seen in the space of half a year.

You are thinking like a veteran, not like a noob.

Yes, player-generated credits have skyrocketed due to all the exploits, but game-generated credits have (nearly) remained the same for the last 10 years.
A newbie's source of income are game-generated credits, long before he/she ever sells anything to another player.
You don't have an S10 twink, you don't even have a Foreman's twink.
No matter how cheap cities are now, as a newbie you CANNOT afford that. Heck, you probably have trouble buying a yalm!

So, I cannot see ANY realistic scenario where a newbie doc can earn 1 billion credits in 2 months.
As a true newbie, you are probably TL6 in 2 months with sub-par gear/symbiants and maybe 100M to your name.
And even that requires a lot of time and dedication.

1) Because of the low population, finding a babysitter org isn't easy!
Many orgs are just too small these days. Those that aren't, are often focused on endgame content, not helping newbies.

2) For the same reason, finding anything on LFT, other than Ely hecks or Inf mish, isn't easy.
And even that might not be easy if you happen to play during off-peak (which is about 12h a day).

And of course, everything is priced out of range for a newbie.
Not just gear, symbiants and nanos, but also buffs and tradeskills - everybody expects to be paid and every tip takes a big chunk out of your newbie budget.

Yes, there are still a few viable sources of income for newbies.
The best one, in my opinion, is farming basic clothing for AI armor and sell it on shopping bots or GMI.
Of course, since everything is so poorly documented in AO, a newbie might not know about that for many weeks to come.

Yeah sure, the NPE is coming someday and it will be an improvement over Noob Island.
But I'm afraid the NPE will not change any of these fundamental challenges either.

[Encyros]

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These all come down to the underlying complexity of AO. AO is not, and is not designed to be a game which is easy to get into, easy to understand, easy to know what is cheap and what is expensive, easy to know what is useful and what is useless.

This complexity is intrinsic to the game. Hopefully the NPE makes some of these things easier, but the core of AO will remain hard to grasp at the very start.

I would hope that newbies who are determined to get rich find other ways of making money which don't involve selling loot to vendors. The easiest way to get started along this route is to sell a Medsuit to someone who's lazy in Borealis for 2m.

In response in particular to Grandpa, what does a newbie need 1b for that they can't obtain properly? Let's not confuse needs with wants.

[semisentient]

a very simple test for whether the economy is working or broken:

are people using credits when trading with each other or are they mostly abandoning it for alternate systems?

answer, except for the 1b/4b credit limits causing people to use proxy items at the high ends, credits are valued and people use them to trade.

DONE. AO economy is working and not broken.

Just because there are quirks, inflation, or issues doesn't mean it is broken. It is well functioning, with room for improvement obviously. If you exaggerate everything then you lose credibility.

[Grandpa]

<snip>
In response in particular to Grandpa, what does a newbie need 1b for that they can't obtain properly? Let's not confuse needs with wants.

As a true newbie, you are not geared to get anything useful on your own.
Due to the population issues, you cannot find teams to get the things useful to your toon.
That is assuming that you actually found good info on what is right for your toon.
RK missions, which you could do on your own, generally don't drop anything useful.

So good luck collecting the patterns, novi, source crystals, then ts-ing it all and spawning a pb for symbiants in your level range.

Enjoy doing city raids with an under-geared toon!
That's assuming you know how to farm CRU and found an org willing to give you cloak control.

Have fun getting annihilated in BS for weeks, just so you have enough VP for basic ofab gear.
Again, that's assuming that BS even starts in your level range with any regularity.

Want a wrangle? Pay up!
Want ability or treatment buffs? Pay up!
Need a nano from a garden but don't have the key? Pay up!
Can't blitz RK nanos yet? Pay up!
Need an implant made or any other tradeskill? Pay up!
Need a medsuit but aren't Omni? Pay up!

FC has decided to implement mandatory inspect in the near future.
Quite a few people here like the idea of "gear checks" for their teams.
Now add this all up and you know WHY credits are not just a "want" but a essential need!

Sorry, NPE won't help with any of that.

[Grandpa]

a very simple test for whether the economy is working or broken:

are people using credits when trading with each other or are they mostly abandoning it for alternate systems?

answer, except for the 1b/4b credit limits causing people to use proxy items at the high ends, credits are valued and people use them to trade.

DONE. AO economy is working and not broken.

Just because there are quirks, inflation, or issues doesn't mean it is broken. It is well functioning, with room for improvement obviously. If you exaggerate everything then you lose credibility.

I think you might be unaware of the scope and magnitude of the glitches in the last 3 years.
Personally, I use credits only for the surgery clinics now.
Everything else, I get by other (legal) means, mostly by trading and bartering with friends and orgmates.

[Stillian]

These all come down to the underlying complexity of AO. AO is not, and is not designed to be a game which is easy to get into, easy to understand, easy to know what is cheap and what is expensive, easy to know what is useful and what is useless.

This complexity is intrinsic to the game. Hopefully the NPE makes some of these things easier, but the core of AO will remain hard to grasp at the very start.

I would hope that newbies who are determined to get rich find other ways of making money which don't involve selling loot to vendors. The easiest way to get started along this route is to sell a Medsuit to someone who's lazy in Borealis for 2m.

In response in particular to Grandpa, what does a newbie need 1b for that they can't obtain properly? Let's not confuse needs with wants.

Which has fanny adams to do with the 'complexity of AO'. My reply to you was

But how are they expected to know what's cheap, even on a second re-roll? With a population that isn't focusing on people at low-levels, there's very few people out there helping lowbies with this kind of info. It remains, pretty much as it always has been, sink or swim; not something we can afford anymore, with such a low population.

and this has no bearing on the 'complexity' of AO. We are and always have been poor, on the whole, at looking after our newbies.

I would hope that newbies who are determined to get rich find other ways of making money which don't involve selling loot to vendors. The easiest way to get started along this route is to sell a Medsuit to someone who's lazy in Borealis for 2m.

Again, this is nuts. It's all very well and good saying this, because you've done it and made it. The fact is every other MMO provides quest/vendor rewards that are realistic at start-game. It is perfectly normal to think that doing missions and selling to a shop will give you a good start, not assume that it's going to screw you over for a while to come!

The day is past when we can afford to be proud that we worked it out, despite the odds. That way population maintenance does not lie.

[dritst]

If you think somethink is overpriced just don't buy it , offer the price you want, if you are fair you will find seller (fair aka you sell your stuf to good price too). And avoid to sell items to mule/froob level 1/speculator in GMI ( the one that got 30/40 order at low price for every expensive items)
It is quite like the "Don't feed the troll "

[Encyros]

Snip

The fact that it is difficult to know at the beginning what is valuable and what is not is due in large part to the large number of items, and the large number of outdated items, in the game.

It has very much to do with the system. We don't have a colour-coded rarity system, an explanation of what many statistics actually affect, an easy comparison with our current equipment, an accurate gauge of DPS, and so on. These are all game mechanics which allows me to judge whether or not something is worth holding onto, which most modern MMOs have.

AO doesn't. Therefore, players must seek out player-made resources. If they don't, they're going to fail, and in far more ways than not being able to afford things.

People who can't work it out; that's not what AO is. A substantial amount of content requires that someone has worked it out. If they can't be bothered to work out the economy, they probably can't be bothered to work out the systems, so there's no point having them in the game because they'll just fail instances.

It's not elitism to say that if someone in AO can't be bothered to seek help they're not going to succeed.

Yes. This would exclude some people who prefer other types of games. Making the game accessible to those people would destroy what AO is. AO can't compete in the same way with an accessible MMO - of course it can't. It thrives on its complexity.

[lunarsolace]

Back in the day, you used the bits of armor you looted from mobs and rolled from missions. As time went by, the AO community learned which armor sets were 'best' and which ones were lesser. A similar approach was used for weapons. There was an immense amount of trial and error.

Websites popped up with guides, word of mouth spread what items were good etc.

You could roll sets of the 'good' armor from rubi-ka missions and sell them to other players. Social items also were lucrative (sunglasses). Weaponry was the same.

As the time went on, people learned all the tradeskill processes, players would tip tradeskillers to make armor/weapons etc.

Shadowlands brought Azeroth elements to AO. Grinding faction, large raids done on timers. A lot changed here but one of the pinnacle elements of AO was the reliance upon other players. SL reinforced this ideal. I remember many douchebags getting the shaft at Gala raids. If they didn't get enough faction, they simply couldn't level. It took like a week or so of grinding inf temple raids of 2-3 teams (balanced teams because all the teams had to get faction) Also the community idea was used for getting sk spots in outdoor leveling locations. (Tuin/Tinos/Phatmos/255 and I'm forgetting a few).

SL instanced leveling missions killed this process. For a while after the cam missions, players did 160-220 in Penumbra until they fixed the inferno mission bug. (I still contend a 205 Pen hard has tougher mobs that a 220 inf hard)

Ai brought farming for gear back to Rubi-Ka. Players had to rely on their orgs for the early days. Eventually players learned they could do 'farm' raids and could start raiding for gear on their own, which started some self-reliance. CRU went for like 1k cru per 1m creds.

LE - yahoo a bg like instance with one map. Could farm points for moderate to Meh gear (outside of soldiers/keepers) and decent weapons. One person could farm for their gear, which again, taught self-reliance.
Xan brought single room instances that players could farm/spam and get done fast. A short while later the loot-rights selling phenomena became widespread, Pande was instanced. People could buy everything in game with creds which placed an emphasis upon credit farming by all means necessary.

What does this wall of text mean? The complexity this game once had is gone and the economy is not broken, the game is (IMHO).

[Grandpa]

What does this wall of text mean? The complexity this game once had is gone and the economy is not broken, the game is (IMHO).

Yes, I agree with you. The game was a lot more fun in the early days.

FC really made some piss-poor decisions along the way.
Today, the "complexity" of the game is how make credits so you can buy everything else.

But what's done is done and I believe AO has come to a fork in the road.
Very few people will start a game where it is glaringly obvious that they have little to no chance to ever compete with the existing player base.
That's the status quo in AO.

Something drastic and fundamental must happen to make AO attractive to new customers again.
No, making the game more like WoW, SWTOR, GW2, etc. is not the answer.
Neither is the NPE or new engine, sorry.

Either level the economic playing field or move the game away from credits being the means to all ends!

[Encyros]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

There's not really any way to reason with you if you say that all true newbies would act in a certain way.

[nat3s]

so there's no point having them in the game because they'll just fail instances.

Every argument I make explaining the problems in the current economy is in the context of trying to attract and retain new players by making it less punishing. It seems we fundamentally differ on that as you seem quite happy for certain types of player to fall by the wayside.

MMOs are trying to cater for a wide audience. Targetting a small niche of players is not sound business. Try reading up on the psychology of gaming and attracting a wide audience. the Bartle Test would be a good start.

[Encyros]

Every argument I make explaining the problems in the current economy is in the context of trying to attract and retain new players by making it less punishing. It seems we fundamentally differ on that as you seem quite happy for certain types of player to fall by the wayside.

MMOs are trying to cater for a wide audience. Targetting a small niche of players is not sound business. Try reading up on the psychology of gaming and attracting a wide audience. the Bartle Test would be a good start.

I am indeed quite happy for that.

Anarchy Online is unable to compete with modern MMOs for attracting a wide base. Its endgame is not as extensive as more successful older MMOs, and its graphics and mechanics not as refined as newer ones. It should not seek to compete in that field because it cannot hope to.

I believe that new entrants to AO will largely be MMO veterans who don't mind paying a top-rate subscription for the chance to try something new, niche, and distinctly other.

It would be possible to increase clarity, but that would have an effect on complexity and diversity which are the main draws of the game compared to others.

AO has the potential to become a game like EVE, targeted to a specific niche, and successful in that venture, unafraid to let those who don't belong know they don't belong in quite candid terms.

I am sure that all designers and all players would, given the opportunity, envision AO as something else were they able to design it again. But those resources don't exist, and never will. What we have is a special game that is good at complexity and diversity, and quite utterly terrible at many other aspects of the modern MMO.

For player psychology, billions of credits really isn't necessary for anything other than competitive PVP.

I don't understand why people seem to think Alien Armour and Symbiants grow on trees. Where exactly do symbiants come from, if not from spawned bosses whose patterns were farmed, and static bosses whose kills are farmed? Where does most Alien Armour come from, if not farmed basic armour, farmed city raids, and sector bosses?

Why do people expect to get something player farmed without ever doing anything boring? This is a system issue, not an economy issue.

[Stillian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

There's not really any way to reason with you if you say that all true newbies would act in a certain way.

True Scotsman will do anything, at least once for kudos and more for alcohol. Please see my title for my credentials. Else ask Aiken.

[Grandpa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

There's not really any way to reason with you if you say that all true newbies would act in a certain way.

Oh sorry, my fault!
I'm just too blind to see all those successful newbies turning into fully geared 220's with billions of credits all the time.

Sarcasm aside, the fact is that we are not getting new players or they quit long before they even get to TL5.
And that's just the froobs - how many even bother converting to paid accounts nowadays?

Newbies face the hurdles (and more) that I've pointed out, not that capitalist wonderland that you are envisioning.
We can either accept the status quo or do something about it.

Rest assured, FunCom will side with you - solving a problem is not their strong suit.

[Encyros]

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I'd like you to explain why someone should have access to items which are generated by boring farming without having to do anything ingenious or boring.

[Grandpa]

I'd like you to explain why someone should have access to items which are generated by boring farming without having to do anything ingenious or boring.

Honestly, in what world are you living?

Do you really think AO has thousands of players left?
Do you really think we are getting newbies by the score and can afford to waste some?
Do you really not understand the difference between "hard" and "impossible"?

But let's get back to the economy - I'm giving you a hypothetical first.

Lets assume citizens of your country decide to print their own money.
Not just a few bills, but massive amounts of currency.
Then they launder the counterfeit through 3rd parties.
Would your government idly stand by and let that happen?

That's EXACTLY what happens in AO.
Counterfeiting: Players duped trillions of credits (actually quintillions, but that's just a technicality).
Money Laundering: Players sell these ill-begotten credits to the gold spammers.
Government: FC stands by and let it all happen (omg, lets nerf John Smith, that's an exploit!!)

As a result, the game economy is high-jacked by cheaters.
They escalate the prices and force people to buy their counterfeit through the gold spammers.

This is NOT inflation, it is extortion - and it needs to stop!

Only someone willfully ignorant wouldn't understand that.

[Chewy1]

Honestly, in what world are you living?

Do you really think AO has thousands of players left?
Do you really think we are getting newbies by the score and can afford to waste some?
Do you really not understand the difference between "hard" and "impossible"?

But let's get back to the economy - I'm giving you a hypothetical first.

Lets assume citizens of your country decide to print their own money.
Not just a few bills, but massive amounts of currency.
Then they launder the counterfeit through 3rd parties.
Would your government idly stand by and let that happen?

That's EXACTLY what happens in AO.
Counterfeiting: Players duped trillions of credits (actually quintillions, but that's just a technicality).
Money Laundering: Players sell these ill-begotten credits to the gold spammers.
Government: FC stands by and let it all happen (omg, lets nerf John Smith, that's an exploit!!)

As a result, the game economy is high-jacked by cheaters.
They escalate the prices and force people to buy their counterfeit through the gold spammers.

This is NOT inflation, it is extortion - and it needs to stop!

Only someone willfully ignorant wouldn't understand that.

This is exactly what happened. Couldn't of said it any better.

[Encyros]

Snip

I'm aware of what happened.

You appear to deem newcomers and players in general to have some right to declare themselves too lazy to do content and have their itemisation subsidised.

I'm in the camp of players such as Traderjill who believe that the economy is very much opt-in.

The fact that some buffers and many tradeskillers demand a tip for their services is not a serious argument that billions are necessary for sustenance.

Ultimately, though credit sellers may have hordes of illegally obtained credits, they seem too intelligent to try to expose such funds by putting them into play on the market.

What actually seems to be happening is that some players buy a couple of billion from the credit sellers, and then spend them promptly on the GMS, which diffuses the funds into the market.

This unintelligent behavior should not be entirely surprising as that has usually been the sort to buy from credit sellers.

I understand and fully believe that many trillions of credits were duped and quite possible remain in the system. We are not actually being held to ransom by marketeers willing to use those sorts of funds, however.

Put simply, despite what has happened, Combined costs around three to four times what it used to, not ten times, thirty times, a hundred a thousand or a million times more.. This is because most credit buyers aren't economically savvy.

If people like Ekaslave and Candletrade had trillions, expensive items would be a lot more expensive. The market should steady itself against intelligent merchants, not fools who splash some money around because it makes them feel good. The mere presence of money does not mean the economy is broken.

[Aiken]

True Scotsman will do anything, at least once for kudos and more for alcohol. Please see my title for my credentials. Else ask Aiken.

I have no comment concerning these allegations. You can speak to my Lawyer, You Kilt-Wearing Scotsman!