How to Balance Ranged vs Melee

[Josephina]

Then FC should upgrade? And not throw more bandaids into the game.

Latency is inherent to long distance communication and thus also to the internet. I don't think the latency of FC's servers to my end is bad (or worse than other games with servers in the US), so I presume that FC's server and connections don't need to be upgraded at this time (unlike a few years ago). A cheap trick often used to remove latency issues, is having the gamer's PC decide who he can hit and who not, which is very exploitable. Huge games like wow can afford (and populate) localized servers, removing most of the latency.

What FC should have done (imo anyways) is take the latency into consideration when designing the gameplay of the game. Ofcourse FC didn't take anything into consideration when they were on another round of stat inflation -which they claimed was design-. And now we have a game where everyone is zipping past at high speeds while many classes are forced into melee. The only way I see how FC can fix the melee latency issues, without resorting to even more bandaids, is by a drastic runspeed nerf across the board. Something that we (me anyways) won't like after getting used to our present runspeed, but something that is probably needed nonetheless.

[sultryvoltron]

It works on mobs pretty well just fyi.

On a side note, have you ever played a melee toon? Clearly you haven't, how it works is that you need to run AHEAD of the thing you are trying to attack

You have to approximate where the person is on the server rather than where you're seeing it, if the person is zig zagging and crap like that, yeah well you can imagine.

It is the sync.

And you think /follow is the best way to accomplish that?

Good lord you guys are missing the point left and right.


And Gatester, other than the enfo specific part it kinda sounds like you were agreeing with me...

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You mean, soldiers and ranged advs do. If we look at it this way yes, you are probably right.

soldiers, agents, ranged advies, crats, engies, Nt's, even doctors and MP's to some extent (if they are played right)

happy now? Melee gets killed a LOT. period.

Lets make an example to illustrate. Consider youre running along and you see someone. They are in your kill zone as ranged, because pretty much LOS=kill zone. On melee, you have to chase someone, wait till they stop, "FIND" the kill zone, because it's always effing moving around because of stupid synch lag, THEN try to fight. lets see how this boils down:


The kill zone for a ranged toon is pi*r^2 where r=range: 5024 square meters.

kill zone for a melee toon is found using the same forumla: pi*r^2=28 meters square. (range =3m)

Now, if the ranged toon moves slightly, the server changes the location of the toon, and puts him about 5m ahead of where he is. so, melee toon has to INSTANTLY move in the same direction as the ranged toon 5 METERS, JUST to account for the MECHANICS of synch.

Now, moving 5m instantaneously is impossible, so is moving in the exact same direction. On average, you're probably moving approximately within 90 degrees of the other person, like, you won't be goign in the opposite direction, but, it's unlikely you'll be pointed in the EXACT same direction. Now, lets check again, if you move INSTANTLY 5m on average 90 degree from the other person in an effort to STAY within range, this is what happens:

target toon is 5m from point A,
targettign toon is 5m from point A on the perpendicular. the hypoteneuse between the new location is sqrt(5^2+5^2)= 2rt5 or 4.47m

The melee toon has a range of 3m. 4.47m>3m, so, EVEN IF the melee toon is capable of moving instantly in approximately the same direction as the target, he will still be out of range.

Mechanics bad? yes. I wouldn't take my truck to them for fixing.

[crattey]

blarghlbraghlr

for which audience are you making these post? I mean, seriously, dude, you are only ever going to impress anyone who has never ever, ever, ever played this game.
Your view of the current situation is such an enormous distortion of reality, nobody will ever read you post and think any of it...

[Notcrattey]

Guys I play a melee toon, and I kill ranged toons.

[Notcrattey]

me too! when they are rooted, drained, and stunned....

Maybe it's just you then *shrug*

Sure the range disadvantage is kind of annoying, but it's not nearly as crippling as you claim it to be. Could it be improved? Of course, but seriously.

[navycut]

Yeah sync issues are lame but I kill enough ppl and claiming oh 'i can only kill ranged ppl when they're rooted drained and stunned' is retarded.

And yeah as crattey said, it's annoying but in no way as crippling as you make it sound

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Yeah sync issues are lame but I kill enough ppl and claiming oh 'i can only kill ranged ppl when they're rooted drained and stunned' is retarded.

And yeah as crattey said, it's annoying but in no way as crippling as you make it sound

Point taken, but, have you killed anyone using JUST fists, or shensticks, who has GSF, or, even without GSF, who knows how to use synch lag to their benefit?

[crattey]

First off, don't use shen sticks -.-

Secondly, nobody is claiming that MAs are OPd. In BS, they are a joke. In duels, when toe to toe, they can still be deadly as ****.

However. And really, try and get this, for once: What happens to a MA versus crat fight on the BS is not now, not ever, indicative of every ranged versus melee situation.

You have a habit of discussing matters where you take the very best of one side and fit it against the worst of the other side. I could just as easily drop a list of why melee is wtfpwnoverpowered.

[Gatester]

And yeah as crattey said, it's annoying but in no way as crippling as you make it sound

notcrattey said it, not crattey.

Ranged is greatly overpowered at lower levels, where players easily hit 40m capped ranges but only have a few hundred points of runspeed to close those gaps. The other problem is you can chain root and kill anyone easily. The exception, of course, being enforcers, which every ranged prof calls overpowered because they can actually kill them.

Again, at tl7 its not the ranged vs melee issue that makes, say, my shade not kill people. It is wether or not I can use my toolset and that applies to every profession. Just because that fixer kites me and an MA tanks me and I do more damage to the MA does not mean my problem is range...either way I'm probably not going to perk them and will eventually die.

Sync is a problem, and especially latency in the case of those of us using satelite internet...but if you can or cannot kill someone regardless of them kiting or not, then that is where the issues really begin. If you have to be on top of someone for a solid minute to kill them, either they are too strong defensively, they are a tank prof, or you are too weak offensively. No more than 4-10 seconds tops is all you should need to "control" an opponent.

[-Klod-]

Ranged is greatly overpowered at lower levels, where players easily hit 40m capped ranges but only have a few hundred points of runspeed to close those gaps.

It's not about ranged profs at lower levels being OP'd, it's about their toolset (in general, two profs).

[crattey]

notcrattey said it, not crattey.

I get some credit for being his source of inspiration, though.

As for the rest, virtually everything you said can be turned around to suggest the opposite - how melee have an unfair advantage over ranged.

You simply cannot make such simple statements over a fairly complex situation.

And let's face, both you and knuckle do have a habit of exaggeration the situation to a rather extreme point at times.

We'd almost forget this thread had a OP btw. The idea is silly

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I feel like if we don't take an idea and exaggerate it it won't get any attention.

If it doesn't get any attention, nodoby posts.

if nobody posts, it gets lost in the pile of Etrash.


If people get huffy, people post and call me names, which equals bad to ok press.

bad to ok press means more possibilities to discuss relevant ideas and counter retarded elements to the original idea.

exaggerated or not, ranged still >>> melee in open PVP. wtb some fixes.

how about this:

change the distance of follow to less than the smallest melee range, IE, 1m.

[CriticalDmg]

change the distance of follow to less than the smallest melee range, IE, 1m.

Let me just say it again: http://forums.anarchyonline.com/showthread.php?t=500101

[Gatester]

It's not about ranged profs at lower levels being OP'd, it's about their toolset (in general, two profs).

As for the rest, virtually everything you said can be turned around to suggest the opposite - how melee have an unfair advantage over ranged.

There are more than 2 CC professions available at tl2. This would not be a ranged issue, except that every CC profession is also a ranged profession.

At my best on a 30 agent using my lowest level root and the best I could cast alternated between a soldier, shade, MA, and keeper. The soldier and keeper were 49, the MA was in his 40's and the shade was in the 30ish range. I killed all four without any of them able to get in range of my agent.

This is no different from any CC prof at this level. When a CC prof has a 40m range and their opponent does not, it is only a matter of the CC prof not screwing up and their opponent will die.

All CC tools are OP at tl2 because only one profession has the toolset to counter them. This is all irrelevant though, as short durations and cooldowns will eliminate 100% of the issues here. This is also why changes such as in the OP do not take into account future changes to professions and toolsets. Broad changes cannot fix problems that are different at every single level of AO which is where many of our issues are arrising.

And let's face, both you and knuckle do have a habit of exaggeration the situation to a rather extreme point at times.

I am trying to get better at it, but what everyone needs to realize is that my pvp toons are RANGED, 100% of them, yet I almost always argue for nerfs to ranged profs (only half are in my sig as well). If I am not justified in asking, and sometimes pushing for changes based on personal experience from actually using the toons I want to adjust, then what am I supposed to do?

[crattey]

I am trying to get better at it, but what everyone needs to realize is that my pvp toons are RANGED, 100% of them, yet I almost always argue for nerfs to ranged profs (only half are in my sig as well). If I am not justified in asking, and sometimes pushing for changes based on personal experience from actually using the toons I want to adjust, then what am I supposed to do?

Even though this appears to be a rhetorical question if asked by most people, considering you appear to be genuine, I'll try and answer it anyway.

'toons I want to adjust'.

Key being that you always argue from your personal preferences and inevitably asserting your own vision of what this game should be like. You are doing little more than posting overly elaborate and rather one-sided sotries, attempting to justify why this game should be more like what you would like it to be. It's nothing more than an opinion and thus rather meaningless from a general balancing point of view. I'd like free beer and tittietrees, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, let alone save the economy and solve the impending energy crisis.

Try and approach from an it objective point of view. State facts, keeping it simple and accurate and trying to avoid generalized statements such as 'melee > ranged'. I know that makes it all very boring, but at least it has meaning rather than serving as forumclutter nobody cares about. A general structure is something like;

- what are you going to discuss, and what are you trying to achieve,
- state your observations and under what circumstances they were made,
- analyze them, as in, adding relevant details,
- add some points of discussion; mostly about stuff you left out, things you're uncertain about, facts you didn't manage to get, etc.,
- work towards a conclusion, in this case describing an imbalance in the game,
- add recommendations that work towards solving the problem.

instead of

- saying melee needs love and ranged is OP,
- saying what buffs melee need to be given or what nerfs ranged needs,
- add, distort or make up whatever facts support your case and leave out anything that doesn't fit your ideas.


This thread adds nothing to the general balance discussion because anything useful is hidden in between a million posts where people pull facts out of their arse or deliberately ignore relevant facts in an attempt to make their personal favorite seem in need of love. It doesn't provide anything for the devs to use, other than the very firm su****ion that this forum really isn't worth reading.

[Gatester]

Try and approach from an it objective point of view. State facts, keeping it simple and accurate and trying to avoid generalized statements such as 'melee > ranged'. I know that makes it all very boring, but at least it has meaning rather than serving as forumclutter nobody cares about. A general structure is something like;

- what are you going to discuss, and what are you trying to achieve,
- state your observations and under what circumstances they were made,
- analyze them, as in, adding relevant details,
- add some points of discussion; mostly about stuff you left out, things you're uncertain about, facts you didn't manage to get, etc.,
- work towards a conclusion, in this case describing an imbalance in the game,
- add recommendations that work towards solving the problem.

I do this quite often already if you observe the OP's of my threads, and in fact the last time I tried extensively laid out and detailed arguments in the case of why pre-tl7 ranged adventurers have a very weak offense, much in the way you are wanting me to discuss now, I got flamed, ignored, and taunted. If I am not mistaken you were even one of those flaming against me with a complete lack of what you are requesting now. No matter how concise and accurate my arguments are, or if I am just ranting like an idiot, a lot of people will be too ignorant to give proper attention to what is being said. Let me try again, using what you want, and see if it is really any different.

- Ranged has a basic advantage over melee, in that ranged has opportunities to hit melee when melee cannot fight back. This is fair as long as melee is given equal opportunities to hit ranged players.

- At lower levels, CC tools are over-effective because nano resist is not effective, CC resistance and removal is limited, the CC nanos are chain-castable, and runspeed is too low for professions to get close to CC profs in most cases. (insert comment of experiences with my 30 agent in battlestation again)

- Professions with debuffs utilize them at the 40m range in most cases. For several professions a single debuff means they have lost the fight. Ranged professions also have very strong alpha's that are useable at 40-20m ranges. When using these tools at this distance, the ranged professions have almost no limitations in kiting and attempting to maintain as much distance as possible as they repeatedly use encounter winning tools against melee professions.

- Ranged professions are as effective at melee range as they are at capped range. Ranged professions and melee professions have no significant differences in strength that are not based on profession abilities. There is no melee advantage at melee distance, melee professions are merely equal to ranged professions once the distance is eliminated. This is not a balanced exchange between ranged at range and melee at melee.

- Melee professions can attack while moving, ranged professions are limited to perks and items while moving. However, sync issues make mobile combat difficult and often impossible.

- Debuffs and CC tools become harder to land at tl7 as gear and stats significantly increase, however ranged prof survival also increases significantly.

- Examples of tools that can cripple players or significantly damage them and are useable at a 40m range:
Doctor init-debuffs
NSD
Trader Drains
Aimed Shot
Full Auto
Burst
LE nukes
Malpractice

- Examples of tools melee professions use to counter the ranged advantage or CC tools:
Enforcer Rage line (Deemed OP by ranged professions)
UWoS (MA attack)
Enforcer Fear (3 minute lockout, random)
MA Fear (2 minute lockout, random)
Spatial Displacement perkline (difficult to spare perks for most profession, unavailable to enforcers)
Keeper snare/root removing aura
Runspeed buffs (fixer and ranged advy are the only ranged professions with a runspeed benefit, keeper and MA have little advantage)
Static resistance items and nanos (Only begin to become effective at tl7)
Notum Repulsor (Only works properly at lowest aggdef settings, weakens players significantly, causes OSB reliance and utilizes perk points)
Root grafts (very long lockouts)

- Pets also suffer from CC tools and debuffs at range, as most are highly vulnerable to nano attacks, snares act as roots, most debuffs cannot be removed until tl7, CC tools cannot be removed until certain levels and are difficul to use in active pvp, and pets are easily redebuffed and resnared/rooted. Durations can often cause multiple uses of a single tool to be used.

- Just because ranged has an advantage does not mean melee should not have advantages as well. Also, just because people call it "the ranged advantage" does not mean ranged professions are entitled to it. It occurs naturally but is not something that should be built around so that ranged professions are always ahead of melee. Ranged should have the ability to strike first and act first against anyone with lower range, but they should not be allowed to maintain that distance for prolonged periods of time or setup conditions for an easy defeat of an opponent at capped ranges. Melee professions should also be the ones with an advantage at melee distance, becoming more effective than their ranged counter-parts once melee distance is reached. The fact that a melee toolset at 40m range and at 4m range would have almost no difference is significant in why the ranged advantage itself is unneccesary. (Insert examples of my agent tanking melee profs and killing them at melee range. Insert additional examples of my agent tanking and killing without kiting all but two players in my dueling range, one was also a soldier who I beat by chain rooting and out ranging...)

- Examples of solutions to give melee professions (including pet professions) equal opportunities against ranged professions:
Extend CC removal nanolines to melee professions, or make a general CC removal buff.
Add short term CC tools to melee professions, just long enough to close distance gaps or make following easier.
Reduce /follow distance.
Increase melee perk ranges.
Add lockouts to CC tools, shorten durations.
Reduce ranged effectiveness based on distance.
Give ranged professions a lower runspeed cap than melee professions.
Reduce the runspeed cap to a lower, more manageable value.
Significantly increase melee damage to compete with ranged specials and damage as well as the damage taken until melee range is reached.

[crattey]

Again, mostly opinions and generalizations.

A general hint is: if someone can criticize your posts merely by saying 'I disagree', you're not making a very convincing point.

Also, I disagree.

[Gatester]

Again, mostly opinions and generalizations.

A general hint is: if someone can criticize your posts merely by saying 'I disagree', you're not making a very convincing point.

Also, I disagree.

That was my point, that no matter how accurate and and how much experience I put forth and say "These stats are not working" would not matter. Then someone comes along and says, "I disagree" and suddenly my entire post means nothing.

I went along with what you wanted crattey, and you just proved my point. My experience is greater than your empty replies. Prove me wrong in the same manner you made me prove there was a problem, or you are nothing but the hypocrit I figured you to be.

[-Klod-]

Tabula Rasa had this ranged Vs melee very nicely done. Might as well steal some of it.

Especially part with armor balancing (graviton/heavy = normal speed, with KB/stun resistance, motor assisted/light = high speed, but with armor HP penalty and no KB/stun resistance at all).

At least it would make some sense, compared to melee toons with 40m "melee" perks and swords that hit at 15m, that is being suggested here.