Modify Agent AR From Perklines

[srompu]

The bailing nanos are fine as they are. We'll make another thread about Agent AR.

This is about putting something actually useful on these perklines.

[Hacre]

@ the clueless Agent flamers, an all out AR setup Agent is, for most people, a much much easier kill than a def setup Agent.

Which is why going for an AR setup isn't really that viable.

Defensively setup Agent is -currently- a 50/50 fight for an NT, with the right sort of timing. Agent lives longer which gives more time to try and land debuffs and rely on AS.

With changes as they're currently proposed, Agents will be useless without an all out AR setup and consequently with how the changes will currently affect their defenses, they'll be complete alpha food for most and certainly not a 50/50 fight against NTs. Dazzle/SI/IU/DM/double or triple with maybe nano feast will be one dead Agent.

That's from my perspective. There's bigger perk alphas out there.

[srompu]

<3 Hacre

Thanks for giving an outsider perspective.

[Hacre]

<3 Hacre

Thanks for giving an outsider perspective.

Well it's true. Agents are going to need some damage boost if you're intended to go all out ar. Like more than NTs because we are squishy as hell in a pure offensive damage setup.

[Ebondevil]

Having a quick look through the perks:
Infantry should get an additional 80 Rifle skill and 100 Fling Shot
Assassin should get an additional 100 Aimed Shot, 80 Fling Shot Skill, 75 Rifle and +20 dodge for good measure.
Black ops should get an additional 45 to 145 Rifle, 35 Aimed Shot and
Made should get an additional 99 Dodge ranged, and 49 Aimed Shot
Sharpshooter should get at least another 3 Crit increase and at least another 30 Aimed Shot
Shadowsneak should just be taken out and shot for being so damn useless... (though +100 rifle and +100 concealment might be good)

And taking Assassin 10, Black Ops 10, Infantry 10, Made 10, would then give Agents a total of:
+400 Rifle from (30 Perks) (instead of +200 from 30)
+400 Aimed Shot from 40 perks (instead of +216 from 40)
+250 Dodge from 20 Perks (Instead of +131 from 20)
+300 Fling shot from 20 Perks (instead of +120 from 20 perks)

I realise that would give Agents more than other professions, but Agents are an artillery profession that specialise in Rifles with Aimed Shot and Fling shot being our Primary specials, it would also require a lot more perk investment than is expected from others who can pretty much get +200 for 10 perks, or +200 to everything they need for 20.

Boosting Infantry to the same levels as equivalent group perks (Pistol Mastery, Shotgun mastery, Ranger, Power Up, SMG mastery) would also mean soldiers would gain the advantage of +200 Rifle for 10 perks, like they could from most of the others.

[NoGoal]

I know you won't like it but they are making some perk actions use-able with other ranged weapons. So these lines could give some other ranged skills like RE, Bow and Pistols. It wouldn't be good for PvP I guess but PvM agents would have other options.

[Stinnipeng]

3.2-3.3K and I do believe someone mentioned a certain nano that ups the ante quite a bit. and that AR is like what...third highest ingame? Maybe fourth? To me that sounds quite high.

YAY, we got third or fourth highest AR ingame! And we get the lowest def too!!!!! AMAGADZ!

[Hacre]

Having a quick look through the perks:
Infantry should get an additional 80 Rifle skill and 100 Fling Shot
Assassin should get an additional 100 Aimed Shot, 80 Fling Shot Skill, 75 Rifle and +20 dodge for good measure.
Black ops should get an additional 45 to 145 Rifle, 35 Aimed Shot and
Made should get an additional 99 Dodge ranged, and 49 Aimed Shot
Sharpshooter should get at least another 3 Crit increase and at least another 30 Aimed Shot
Shadowsneak should just be taken out and shot for being so damn useless... (though +100 rifle and +100 concealment might be good)

And taking Assassin 10, Black Ops 10, Infantry 10, Made 10, would then give Agents a total of:
+400 Rifle from (30 Perks) (instead of +200 from 30)
+400 Aimed Shot from 40 perks (instead of +216 from 40)
+250 Dodge from 20 Perks (Instead of +131 from 20)
+300 Fling shot from 20 Perks (instead of +120 from 20 perks)

I realise that would give Agents more than other professions, but Agents are an artillery profession that specialise in Rifles with Aimed Shot and Fling shot being our Primary specials, it would also require a lot more perk investment than is expected from others who can pretty much get +200 for 10 perks, or +200 to everything they need for 20.

Boosting Infantry to the same levels as equivalent group perks (Pistol Mastery, Shotgun mastery, Ranger, Power Up, SMG mastery) would also mean soldiers would gain the advantage of +200 Rifle for 10 perks, like they could from most of the others.

At first glance your suggestions seem more than reasonable, given most professions get 150-200 weapon skills from 10 perks spent.

[srompu]

I know you won't like it but they are making some perk actions use-able with other ranged weapons. So these lines could give some other ranged skills like RE, Bow and Pistols. It wouldn't be good for PvP I guess but PvM agents would have other options.

Although I understand the support for diversity, perhaps it's better for agents to get a good weaponskill rather than 3 awful ones. Any other weapon we could use would fall a minimum of 400 AR behind other weapons; 300+ from perks, and 100+ from nano buffing.

[NoGoal]

But agents already have good AR. They just don't go for it because they think HP and/or evades is better.

Also agent prof is all about diversity, they aren't froob docs with rifle and some DD perks. They can be any non-SL profession. SL removed a bit of agent support role with perks adding mainly rifle/AS skills (and not allowing to FP SL nanos). Perk changes is a good opportunity to move away from pure artillery.

[sultryvoltron]

But agents already have good AR. They just don't go for it because they think HP and/or evades is better.

@ NoGoal: Read this please.

@ the clueless Agent flamers, an all out AR setup Agent is, for most people, a much much easier kill than a def setup Agent.

Which is why going for an AR setup isn't really that viable.

Defensively setup Agent is -currently- a 50/50 fight for an NT, with the right sort of timing. Agent lives longer which gives more time to try and land debuffs and rely on AS.

With changes as they're currently proposed, Agents will be useless without an all out AR setup and consequently with how the changes will currently affect their defenses, they'll be complete alpha food for most and certainly not a 50/50 fight against NTs. Dazzle/SI/IU/DM/double or triple with maybe nano feast will be one dead Agent.

That's from my perspective. There's bigger perk alphas out there.

Also agent prof is all about diversity, they aren't froob docs with rifle and some DD perks. They can be any non-SL profession. SL removed a bit of agent support role with perks adding mainly rifle/AS skills (and not allowing to FP SL nanos). Perk changes is a good opportunity to move away from pure artillery.

How many fr00b tools that Agents can use really benefit the team? A handful of OBs? UBT/CH? Calms that don't work on any new content?

Really, deperk all of your perks. Take out your nanodeck. De-equip your Xan weapons since they do too much damage. Only use regular Behe, Mongo Crush, Failing Impreg, and RK taunt tools to tank Beast against fully decked out endgame 220s. See how long you can hold Aggro. See how long you can survive without constant healing.

Substitute in the same requirements for any other profession. Strip your toon of everything new that has made you more useful. Go do some endgame content. That's Agent diversity.

[NoGoal]

Sad part is that you list everything that's wrong with agents (defense in general and outdated False Prof) but still ask for something else (more AR).

A lot of players do the same mistake on most professions. Guess we played gods for way too long and noone wants to die but still want to kill fast.

[Lupusceleri]

Also agent prof is all about diversity, they aren't froob docs with rifle and some DD perks. They can be any non-SL profession. SL removed a bit of agent support role with perks adding mainly rifle/AS skills (and not allowing to FP SL nanos). Perk changes is a good opportunity to move away from pure artillery.

Not really, as it stands now.

How it's right now and how it should be are of course two completely different things and I agree with you that there should be multiple viable Mimics - ideally, all of them.

We're get the hand-downs, and due to not getting the defensive perks those other profs get those Mimics lost their viability.

[MyGift]

I dont see whats the problem with agent having high ar while in decent def setup(which dosnt exist atm) We are pure arty professions just like soldiers. They got 3.5k+ ar with wicked defense.

I dont see anyone complaining about that?

Imagine solider with 2800 ar (thats proxy ar of def agent). U would miss pretty much every FA or do ****y dmg with it if u menage to hit anything , u would miss alot of regulars, couldnt perk alot of mid/high evade professions. In one word u wouldn't be able to kill anything.

Now thats whats going to happen to agent when they add def check +3 sec execution time on AS skill.

Things u say about agent here is equaly stupid like if u said "if solja got 3500 def then he shouldn't use AMS"

Plz guys, roll agent and try it or even watch them dueling some decent players and then say we are ok...

[NoGoal]

Not really, as it stands now.

How it's right now and how it should be are of course two completely different things and I agree with you that there should be multiple viable Mimics - ideally, all of them.

We're get the hand-downs, and due to not getting the defensive perks those other profs get those Mimics lost their viability.

It's not due to not getting defensive perks. Agents need a better toolset so FP would be extra, not mandatory.

I dont see whats the problem with agent having high ar while in decent def setup(which dosnt exist atm) We are pure arty professions just like soldiers. They got 3.5k+ ar with wicked defense.

Agents aren't like soldiers. They are way more close to infantry profs.

There's no problem letting agents having decent def and AR at the same time but not by adding the skill they sacrifice to get other skills that they feel lacking. It's like buying a more powerful engine for your car because your tires are flat and you feel like the car is slower than it used to be.

[MyGift]

It's not due to not getting defensive perks. Agents need a better toolset so FP would be extra, not mandatory.

Agents aren't like soldiers. They are way more close to infantry profs.

There's no problem letting agents having decent def and AR at the same time but not by adding the skill they sacrifice to get other skills that they feel lacking. It's like buying a more powerful engine for your car because your tires are flat and you feel like the car is slower than it used to be.

I rly dont see ur point here...U dont mind if agent have decent AR and decent def at same time but u dont agree on geting more ar for agent?

Well atm we dont even have decent def and we got ****y ar. if we want decent ar we need to go crapy def or better say no def.

There are 2 ways to get decent ar/def at same time. 1 is adding some kind defensive ability to agent who are AR setups and 2. is to add some AR to agents that are def setups.

Give us more ar we will sacrifice some of it to get decent def, give us more def we will sacrifice some of it to get decent AR. As simple as that.

At the end it comes to a same thing so i dont see why are u arguing on this one.

[srompu]

There's no problem letting agents having decent def and AR at the same time but not by adding the skill they sacrifice to get other skills that they feel lacking. It's like buying a more powerful engine for your car because your tires are flat and you feel like the car is slower than it used to be.

Ok, I think I've figured out what you mean. You're saying that we should ask for defensive boosts rather than offensive boosts because ultimately the lack of defense has forced us into a defensive setup, rather than the lack of offense.

Currently, the viable Agent setup is weighted heavily toward defense, with insufficient AR. Either more available AR needs to be added, so that defense can be constant while AR grows, or defense needs to be added, so that the pressure towards defensive setups is lightened.

However, it's not going to be possible even in an AR setup to perk many people post-perk-changes. Some of them we could perk before with CS and Champion perks due to higher AR; that will change. Many of them we could only rely on AS to kill; that will change. Some of them have merely climbed or are climbing out of our possible AR range, and we've been making due with running away or gangbanging, hoping for a change.

[sultryvoltron]

For a quick comparison of why this thread is relevant:

Here are the following lines that give 200 weapon skills:

Enforcer:
Bone Crusher (+200 2HB), Blunt Mastery (+200 1HB), Edged Mastery (+200 1HE), Reaver (+200 2HE)

Soldier:
Shotgun Mastery (+200 Shotgun), SMG Mastery (+200 SMG), Power Up (+200 RE), Heavy Ranged (+200 Assault Rifle/Heavy Weapons), Special Forces (+200 Full Auto, +180 Burst, +180 Fling)

Engineer:
Pistol Mastery (+200 Pistol), Shotgun Mastery (+200 Shotgun), Demolitions (+200 Grenade), Power Up (+200 RE)

Trader:
Shotgun Mastery (+200 Shotgun), Power Up (+200 RE),

Fixer:
SMG Mastery (+200 SMG), Power Up (+200 RE)

Doctor:
Pistol Mastery (+200 Pistol), Power Up (+200 RE)

Shade:
Piercing Mastery (+200 Piercing), Shade Touch (soon to be +200 MA)

Meta Physicist:
Blunt Mastery (+200 1HB), Pistol Mastery (+200 Pistol), Ranger (+200 Bow)

Adventurer:
Edged Mastery (+200 1HE), Pistol Mastery (+200 Pistol)

Bureaucrat:
Pistol Mastery (+200 Pistol)

Keeper:
Reaver (+200 2HE)

Agent:
Power Up (+200 RE), Ranger (+200 Bow)

Martial Artist
Ranger (+200 Bow)

Note: Every profession except NT (for obvious reasons) is listed. MAs get +150 MA from Spiritual Master.


Now, here is the sum total of every single perk line an Agent can perk that is related to Rifle:

• Infantry (Group Perk, 10 perks): +120 Rifle, +20 Fling
• Assassin (10 perks): +25 Rifle, +100 AS
• Shadowsneak (10 perks): +10 AS
• Sharpshooter (6 perks): +30 AS
• Black Ops (10 perks): +55 Rifle, +65 AS, +100 Fling
• Made (10 AI perks): +51 AS

Total (46 perks/10 AI perks): 200 Rifle, 256 AS, 120 Fling

[Ebondevil]

For a quick comparison of why this thread is relevant:

Here are the following lines that give 200 weapon skills:

Ranger: +200 Bow Skill [For MA/MP/Agent]

You missed it.

[mr_road]

For a quick comparison of why this thread is relevant:

Now, here is the sum total of every single perk line an Agent can perk that is related to Rifle:

• Infantry (Group Perk, 10 perks): +120 Rifle, +20 Fling
• Assassin (10 perks): +25 Rifle, +100 AS
• Black Ops (10 perks): +55 Rifle, +65 AS, +100 Fling

Total (30 perks): 200 Rifle

fixed since all the other perk lines for the other professions are about weapon skills, not special skills. now its an accurate comparison.

the question now is, which line do you want the 200 rifle in ? (at the expense of the other lines)