Nerf Ranged Advies

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Um, ya, so since this is a balance discussion, I thought I'd start with the biggest problem in game.

Ranged advies.

Nerfem.

Thanks, and btw, RAO sucks. TL7 pvp is a gong show since this 80% check, and then you add insult to injury, with the stupid AS pistol.

Remove asap for best results.

Reasoning: the 80% check on pistol perks allows one prof to completely negate the need to twink out AR, instead focussing on Aimed shot and evades. This is causing massive frustration in pvp since it means they now have the strongest special in game (aimed shot, for those that don't know), since it is:
1. ranged
2. caps on nearly every prof
3. executes instantaneously
4. has a 11 second recharge (with a TS)

Now, if the perk checks were 100%, it would mean that the advies wouldn't be able to perk evade profs with a TS hud in, which would solve much of the imbalance. (It's not like advies are lacking AR, this isn't 2005-2007).

[DrLithvium]

In this forum just must give a reason and state why you wants things to change. :P

[Klod9002]

In this forum just must give a reason and state why you wants things to change. :P

Because current state of ranged advies is highly out of balance?

[capncaveman]

Um, ya, so since this is a balance discussion, I thought I'd start with the biggest problem in game.

Ranged advies.

Nerfem.

Thanks, and btw, RAO sucks. TL7 pvp is a gong show since this 80% check, and then you add insult to injury, with the stupid AS pistol.

Remove asap for best results.

Reasoning: the 80% check on pistol perks allows one prof to completely negate the need to twink out AR, instead focussing on Aimed shot and evades. This is causing massive frustration in pvp since it means they now have the strongest special in game (aimed shot, for those that don't know), since it is:
1. ranged
2. caps on nearly every prof
3. executes instantaneously
4. has a 11 second recharge (with a TS)

Now, if the perk checks were 100%, it would mean that the advies wouldn't be able to perk evade profs with a TS hud in, which would solve much of the imbalance. (It's not like advies are lacking AR, this isn't 2005-2007).

what about title lvls other than tl 7, nerfing a tl 7 adv forces everyone with an adv to roll melee at any lvl below tl7 there isn't enough AR to perk anyone other than non evaders at tl 5 on a ranged adv or perk support or weapons that are worth a crap for pistol advs at lower than tl 7 so nerf tl 7 and ruin a build for anyone below that tl ..... think first b4 you nerf more profs for whiney tl 7 no-peeners
and AS doesn't cap on nearly every prof at least at tl 5 only those with out reflects or evades so that leaves what doc
think first

[McKnuckleSamwich]

what about title lvls other than tl 7, nerfing a tl 7 adv forces everyone with an adv to roll melee at any lvl below tl7 there isn't enough AR to perk anyone other than non evaders at tl 5 on a ranged adv or perk support or weapons that are worth a crap for pistol advs at lower than tl 7 so nerf tl 7 and ruin a build for anyone below that tl ..... think first b4 you nerf more profs for whiney tl 7 no-peeners
and AS doesn't cap on nearly every prof at least at tl 5 only those with out reflects or evades so that leaves what doc
think first

Sorry, I can't understand everything you are saying due to lack of reasonable punctuation, however, I will try to adress your concern as I read it:

Nerfing a TL7 advy forces people to roll melee advy: no, but, most do anyway since melee advy is the strongest prof at TL5 anyway

At other TL's, advy doesn't have enough AR to perk evaders--> what makes you think evaders should be perked?

At Tl5 there is the same perk support for pistols as for 1he, so, You're wrong, and, if there isn't good weapons anyway, then wouldn't that mean that most advies would go melee at TL<7 anyway? In which case your entire post is self defeating.

Sorry, try again, but, next time use punctuation please.

[sultryvoltron]

Sorry, I can't understand everything you are saying due to lack of reasonable punctuation, however, I will try to adress your concern as I read it:

Nerfing a TL7 advy forces people to roll melee advy: no, but, most do anyway since melee advy is the strongest prof at TL5 anyway

At other TL's, advy doesn't have enough AR to perk evaders--> what makes you think evaders should be perked?

At Tl5 there is the same perk support for pistols as for 1he, so, You're wrong, and, if there isn't good weapons anyway, then wouldn't that mean that most advies would go melee at TL<7 anyway? In which case your entire post is self defeating.

Sorry, try again, but, next time use punctuation please.

I've gotta disagree with you here. Pre-TL7 Ranged Advy basically sucks. They can't interrupt nano casting (so it's near impossible to kill docs and CH agents), and they are weak against UBT (also docs and some agents).

Ranged doesn't have the huge alpha that melee has at that level. Ranged has no backstab. Craphander AS sucks, if you go that route. The low AR cap on the FA pistol makes it less than reliable, etc etc etc adnosium. The 80% perks are the only thing TL5 Ranged Advys have going for them.

BUT!!! At TL7 they need a serious nerf. They need more of a nerf than just 100% check perks. They need a non-capped AS, and they DON'T need the secondary AS skill even though FunCom is going to give it to them.


So, the problem as Capn sees it is that Ranged Advies need help at TL5. That's not really related to the perks though as that isn't the real problem.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I've gotta disagree with you here. Pre-TL7 Ranged Advy basically sucks. They can't interrupt nano casting (so it's near impossible to kill docs and CH agents), and they are weak against UBT (also docs and some agents).

Ranged doesn't have the huge alpha that melee has at that level. Ranged has no backstab. Craphander AS sucks, if you go that route. The low AR cap on the FA pistol makes it less than reliable, etc etc etc adnosium. The 80% perks are the only thing TL5 Ranged Advys have going for them.

BUT!!! At TL7 they need a serious nerf. They need more of a nerf than just 100% check perks. They need a non-capped AS, and they DON'T need the secondary AS skill even though FunCom is going to give it to them.


So, the problem as Capn sees it is that Ranged Advies need help at TL5. That's not really related to the perks though as that isn't the real problem.

Er, I think you're actually agreeing with me, because I see nothing here to argue about. But, I agree that TL5 ranged advies could use a small boost. REmember though that TL5 advies are miles above any other prof defensively, so giving them any kind of offensive boost would put them into the TL7 problem area of: "Zomg I'm tanking 8 toons and still killing endgamers easy" type of OP'dness.

Which the rest of us are acutely aware of... which is why I don't even play TL7 atm.

[Litleangel]

All i can sei if they ar gona give advys AS and the second as support like agents is FC you ar gowing the wrong way and we will be like http://ng.neocron.com/ .

For menny of you that do not now it was a funn game but they had a profesion same as advy and a breed same as atrox that was totaly op so after a few years all you could see is 1 profesion all same breed like 90% of the server population the rest 10% finaly quit in time tiered of getting kiled and the 90% quit two tiered of fighting same profeion over and over agian since they were only ones left.

Some stil play the game but they ar closing servers atm since there is none playing.

What im tring to point out is stop giving so much love to a certian profesion just couse some play it and they whine to much couse they wana be king of the hill. The idea of ballance is evre profesion to have a 50% chance of killing all other profesions. Not a rock papper scrisor sistem plz most of us hate that. Why cant you take each profesion (and plz take in consideration breeds two since it makes a biig gap for some profesions) and just think :

Prof A breed A vs Prof B breed A results ( what can be done to have a 50% chance or at least a 40% chance to win)
Prof A breed B vs Prof B breed A results ...
Prof A breed B vs Prof B breed B results ...
Prof B breed A vs Prof C breed A reults ... Etc.

Til you can make a list and see what can be done to achive a ballance at least give in eny scenario a 30% chance to win and all will be happy. Though ideal wold be a 50% chance where mostly counts is your skill as a player and ofc hou much time you spent twinking and using difrent setups.

But atm dosnt matter what settup you use for example on a nt if you ar gona fight a trader you now you got 0 chances.

Or a nt vs a fixer 0 chances agian unles NT is stupid.

Or in my case a opifex Keeper vs enithing range with some healing and 16k hp plus. Or wors vs a atrox with MR he can perk me i cant perk him... in most of the scenarios.

So plz spend some time and just do tests
So you can understand better ask some pvpers that now there profesions well to go on testerver give them some toons modified lets sey MA they have on that account 4 tipes 1 for each breed. Items and let them duel difrent oponents. Then look and also LISTEN to what they have to sey.

And im off to bed since im talking alot of mombo jombo at this hr.... sorry

[sultryvoltron]

Proofread this since it has some pretty good points and I don't want people to cry about the English grammar:

All I can say is if they are gonna give advys AS and the secondary as skill like agents, then FC you are going the wrong way and the game will be like http://ng.neocron.com/ .

For those of you that do not know, it was a fun game but they had a profesion similar to advy and a breed like atrox, and the combonation was totally OP. So, after a few years all you saw was 90% of the server population as 1 profession and all the same breed. The other 10% eventually quit because they were tired of getting killed and everyone else followed because they were tired of fighting and killing the same profession constantly.

Some still play the game but they are closing servers atm since there is nobody playing.

What im tryng to point out is: stop giving so much love to a certian profesion just because some play it and they whine too much couse they wanna be king of the hill. The idea of balance is every profesion should have a 50% chance of killing all other profesions, not a rock-paper-scissors system. Most of us hate that. Why can't you take each profesion (and please consider breed combonations) and just think :

Prof A breed A vs Prof B breed A results (what can be done to have a 50% chance or at least a 40% chance to win)
Prof A breed B vs Prof B breed A results ...
Prof A breed B vs Prof B breed B results ...
Prof B breed A vs Prof C breed A results ... Etc.

Until you can make a list and see what can be done to achive balance, can you at least achieve a 30% chance of victory for each situation? Ideally it would be a 50% chance where skill, setup, and time spent on the character is what matters.

But, atm it doesn't matter what setup you use, for example, on a nt if you are gonna fight a trader. You know you got 0 chances.

Or a nt vs a fixer, 0 chances agian unless NT is stupid.

Or in my case an Opifex Keeper vs anything ranged with some healing and 16k hp plus. Or worse vs an atrox with MR; he can perk me and I cant perk him in most of the scenarios.

So plz spend some time and just do tests.
So you can understand better, ask some pvpers that know there profesions well to go on test server. Give them some modified toons, lets sey the MA they have on that account. Give 4 versions, 1 for each breed. Give access to any item they need and let them duel different oponents. Then look and also LISTEN to what they have to say.

And im off to bed since im talking alot of mombo jombo at this hr.... sorry

@McKnuckle: I always found the handful of Ranged Advys I saw to be a free kill back when I was TL5. Granted, I had a good AS but that's just my perspective on the matter. Others who don't have a good AS will mostly likely disagree.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Proofread this since it has some pretty good points and I don't want people to cry about the English grammar:






@McKnuckle: I always found the handful of Ranged Advys I saw to be a free kill back when I was TL5. Granted, I had a good AS but that's just my perspective on the matter. Others who don't have a good AS will mostly likely disagree.

Afaik there is only 1 ranged advy active at TL5 atm, whom I regularly play with. After seeing perfomance at NW and a couple duels I havent' found that he is either OP'd or underpowered. Ges is a good player though, so it may be possible that TL5 advies are slightly underpowered.

That said, TL5 advies have undoubtably the strongest defences against every prof other than agent, BUT, in other threads it has been also frequently cited that Agents Defences with CH are also overpowered.
Fortunately for agents vs advy at TL5, the agent has the benefit of
1. a faster recharging AS,
2. a more reliable AS,
3. faster and less costly CH,
4. UBT
Which, combined, should ultimately swing the fight in favor of the agent. That certainly isn't being argued. However, take for example a soldier, or enforcer, or keeper, or even a melee advy vs a ranged advy, ultimately the defences of the ranged advy are the same as a melee advy, but has the benefit of kiting, so, I could see that even at Tl5 that ranged advy could use tactics as well as the strong inate defences to beat many other profs.

IMO, agent vs advy at TL 5 is the worst opponent for advy, so, ya, a free kill sounds reasonable.

All of this leads me to believe that even if TL7 ranged advies lost their 80% check, that it wouldn't hurt TL5 advies. I mean, they still have the strongest defences, it just means they won't be able to perk some high-ish dodge range evaders, mainly MA, keeper. Which I don't think is unreasonable. (I doubt they could perk fixer with or without a 80% check.)

I agree about above poster, good points, bad grammar, point taken.

[MyGift]

Advys keep geting updates and love and profession as keeper is on same shi* as it was when AI came out.

Main reason why ppl are quiting is that professions they spent years of twinking and playing are completly usless now cause FC focus on like 3-4 professions and update only them while others get minor utterly unimportant sh**.

So after 3 years of playing my keeper i quit cause they couldnt kill an backyard leet. Then i decided to start agant. Now that i finaly finished agent(took me 2 years) they are getting nerfed/left over too...So WTF??? u gonna waste our times and all effort we put in our toons?? Im sorry but not everyone here wants to play Fuc**** advy and go god like w/o any skill....

[Mereditche]

Fortunately for agents vs advy at TL5, the agent has the benefit of
1. a faster recharging AS,
2. a more reliable AS,
3. faster and less costly CH,
4. UBT

And the advy has on top of having everything else agents have:
1. Coon
2. high evades
3. high rs

[erozc]

I do agree that the current state of ranged advies is over the top. Still, your original post is quite misinformed in several ways, leading me to believe you have little to no clue on actual mechanics that ranged advies work with.

You claimed AR is plentiful for advies. Breed perks aside, what do you think is the "on demand" AR that top ranged advies can get - think of "on demand" as something like MA with Moonmist up or enfo with challenger? How about situational AR, similar to enf with challenger proc as well, trader with both drains and procs and possibly AAO leech, shade with perk drains up? How about defense debuffed AR, like Blur on shades, or agent AR after bullseye? Feel free to use your precious Targeting Scope - Vision Enhancer in your calculations, that no advy worth his salt uses anymore. Or you might just calc it without it to get a more true result. And use the same figure for all three ARs, which incidentally is the same as so called 'static' AR.

AS pistol doesn't cap on everyone all the time, to say so is a gross overstatement. An often seen result is 2k to 3k hit, maybe more if the target is completely without reflects. Most players have a lot more than 10k health, for which 3k would be cap. So there's your "nearly every prof".

There's lots of non-advy lub abound. AS nerf is inc, heal adjustment is inc, parry/riposte implementation will not empower ranged players in any way but quite the contrary. Additionally, advy NR is not much to write home about so support perk changes will be "interesting".

Pistol perks alone kill only green inexperienced low hp people. With AS it's another story. With AS certainly becoming less effective, don't you agree that it's worth it to see how the scene changes first?

[Soliartist]

Yeah, do that.

[Hacre]

Ranged Advies needed some support at TL7, but 80% checking specials with their possible AR and damage template was too far in the right direction.

Like I said in another thread, Pistol Mastery should be removed from Adventurer's group tab, copy/pasted to their Profession tab and have the checks changed to 95-100%.

Ranged Advies benefited -big- time from a fix that (I hope) was meant for Support type pistol wielding professions, like Docs/Crats.

I'm seeing quite a few ranged advs running about in HP/def setup at the moment.

That said, you could always have Spatial Displacement/PM perks not work together, so Advies can still have OP perks but get root vulnerability as a trade off. Then at least crowd control professions can have a crack at them.

[Phargus]

I'd say keep quick shot/double shot at 80% but move deadeye back to 100%. It's the big ticket perk special in the pistol mastery line (roughly the same dd as slice and dice) an you should have to work on your AR to land it. Without it landing the advy alpha would still be pretty decent, but nowhere near as powerful.

Of course without a full overview of the balance changes everything written in this forum is pretty much just jerking off...

[Saetos]

That said, you could always have Spatial Displacement/PM perks not work together, so Advies can still have OP perks but get root vulnerability as a trade off. Then at least crowd control professions can have a crack at them.

Make Melee the CC-resist masters and Ranged the damage masters?

............ Awesome idea actually

[Phargus]

nvm

[Piili]

Ranged Advies benefited -big- time from a fix that (I hope) was meant for Support type pistol wielding professions, like Docs/Crats.

Actually Crat can reach higher AR than adventurer. I don't get it why should anyone think this way. Why should a doctor be able to perk anyway? I think doctors are one of the most OP professions at the moment.

Also I have some experience from the AS pistol currently using it on a crat with approx. 1,6k in AS skill with custom implants and 275 scope full CSS etc. One reason is because crats don't have much +dmg add in a usual equipment and the AS fails pretty much. I usually see 1 - 2 k AS which isn't even near cap. Ofcourse for adv and all the dmg add it's a different story.

But anyway Adventurers are finally even perk some evaders, but something with their defenses can be considered "wrong".

[foulbat]

nerf engi