Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #441
    Who knows ^^
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #442
    What do u guys think of the weapon skill buff on the weapon itself tho?

    Ow plus i still think it should rely on Nano Init
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    We don't have what we asked for, far from it. we've got what our professionals and ex-professionals traditionally have asked for. The profession is never looked as a whole and now we have this rubbish that will need lots of nerfs and band aids alike. There is no way to pick it and you can't say that there has been a lot of attention from developers placed to it since it was only nerf and give this away as a compensation.

    For the MPs, they need:
    * General weapon support (bow, pistol, 1hb and 2hb). I am not saying magically giving away 1000+ AO but retooling our setup (research, ofab, symbiants, nanos...) to get an overall offensive increment of 500 to 1000. That will let them hit normal hits and non dependent on special attacks (AS, perk that does AS damage, fling+burst, full auto, bow special attack or whatever) and it will also let MPs use their procs effectively.
    * MPs are a pet profession. I don't understand why some people here wants to limit the number of MPs that can reach high level pets by forcing uber high nanoskill setups. Lower the requisites for the pets and raise them for the nukes to make up for it. Using health setups should prevent the use of high level nukes (we are not NTs) and not pets (we are a pet profession).
    * High nanoskill setups sacrifice life that is needed to survive specially for the "defenses" we have been given, healing and damage reduction.
    * Give back the debuff role of MPs, An MP should be able to have a target permadebuffed even if the numbers are lower. The idea of two lines, one that stays for a minute and has a reasonable debuff and a high cost-short duration 15-20seconds heavy debuff should be considered back. % debuffs since they are single target, are not able to take away all the nanodamage and healing of the target and can be resisted should be long duration and have not immunity or just give a 25% reflect for all MPs and none will complain. I will miss CoC.
    For the record, let it be known I asked precisely for what you asked for in terms of weapon buffs, as did JustinSane. Actually asked for the 800-1k weaponskill/AR buffing and a buff that would be based on amount of MC towards MP traditional weaponskills.

    The developers said no, and gave us what we have.

    I don't agree with all of it, but it's pretty apparent that the developers are really willing to work with us here but magically turning us into soldiers or enfos with pets is just not going to happen.

  4. #444
    Seems not much will change, everything will perk us, yet we are unable to perk anyone. Infact, do we even perk docs these days?? never really bothered testing.
    Still here

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    if FC would like to meet us at finding some AR, they could buff the Bow/1HB/2HB skill we lack on the weapon itself.
    And pistol

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    The developers said no, and gave us what we have.

    I don't agree with all of it, but it's pretty apparent that the developers are really willing to work with us here but magically turning us into soldiers or enfos with pets is just not going to happen.
    NTs with pets are acceptable? Weapon support will not make MPs in any way nearly as powerful as "soldiers". I am not considering any specials that won't hit anything. Only normal hits and there are many ways to give the weapon support it does not need to come in the form of one nano or object. The reason to carry a weapon in the game is to hit something with it. There are buffing items but if some MPs want to carry phulaks that is their choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Seems not much will change, everything will perk us, yet we are unable to perk anyone. Infact, do we even perk docs these days?? never really bothered testing.
    We don't

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancingrage View Post
    For the record, let it be known I asked precisely for what you asked for in terms of weapon buffs, as did JustinSane. Actually asked for the 800-1k weaponskill/AR buffing and a buff that would be based on amount of MC towards MP traditional weaponskills.

    The developers said no, and gave us what we have.
    Super fun. They refuse to give us AR and steal our AAD as well

    If they are not going to give us offense, why not give us defense at least? :x

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Seems not much will change, everything will perk us, yet we are unable to perk anyone. Infact, do we even perk docs these days?? never really bothered testing.
    And seems Devs cannot see it.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  7. #447
    If they are not going to give us offense, why not give us defense at least? :x
    Well I'd guess that they think that the improvements to pets, adding 2x - 4x the nuke power etc are going to count as offense. I suppose that they'd also think that adding more base evades, 3x - 4x healing power, DtP, bigger damage debuffs, bigger NanoDmg debuffs, AoE mez effect etc count as more defense...

    And to the overall environment, they'd probably count that AMS perks no longer use double AAO, Specials being nerfed, anti-kiting measures, parry etc.

    I'd personally agree that there are still problems with these tools. And I'd agree that things need to change. But blank statements like the above won't help in persuading the devs, since they seem to ignore so much of what has been implemented.

    Seems not much will change, everything will perk us, yet we are unable to perk anyone.
    Well, we should certainly be able to perk a lot more - because our nanoskill Vs NR perks will perk much, much easier since AAD won't be added to the defence any more. From what I remember, and without dropping back to check, there was a chunk more damage available from those perks too.

    With longer casting times on perks too, along with shared cooldowns on some specials etc - the damage should be spread a bit more than before too, allowing you more time to heal with massively improved heal pets etc.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not happy with a lot of what's been implemented and would particularly argue for more weapon support among other things. But it's important to at least try to get an overall picture of what FC are aiming at and work within that.

    A lot will come out during the testing phase too - and to be honest, that is probably where our best contribution to change will come. If we can generate good quality testing, with good facts and figures from testing to support our points... then we stand a good chance of getting stuff improved. But it will be important that we really put the work in, in order to achieve that.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  8. #448
    Im willing to help with testing MP tools when they hit test

    And i agree, other profs / whole game mechanism will change. But as i read we dont whine about "we want pvp wep" but more like we want a pvm wep.

    I think changing perks will effect dmg/min also on other profs, but lets stay with old numbers for a bit. I think useless to speak about dmg/hit, so lets stay with dmg/min. Tops are crats and shades 220-250k/min possible in pande.
    Pvm soldier can go 180-200 (i think)
    Ranged adv 166k/min (tested myself)
    NT can go insane also but at least 150k/min
    Engi around 160-200 i think

    Where we are? I never did a real mp dmg test tbh. 2-3 years ago, before adding few dmg buffs to Rihwen it did 60k/min on ado hecks. Now it can be around 80k/min with perks i think.

    If FC dont want to give us an useful wep (and with those inits and low AR we wont do more than 20-25k/min by wep in pande) they must give us strong pet. And if we compare ourselfs to othre pet profs, we should be around 180k/min. That means pet should do 120-130k/min in pvm Which would be 1,5-2x the rihwen dmg.
    But will be same strong in pvp and when they hit test everybody else will whine "why mps get so strong pet". Ofc they wont see we dont have any useful weps, most of them just social. Still new pet will be nerfed again and we can cry for 4-5 years again to get balanced...
    No idea how much nukes could dmg for, 60-80k/min? Also u cant spam all the time, now we will have to debuff and we may run out of nano with spamming 3k nanocost nanos.
    So our dmg (in pvm and pvp also) will be based on pet mainly. If FC give us a real tnh, it will be fine. Else...

  9. #449
    Also there is a problem with current multi melee system.

    If you have 1 wep on for putting on 2nd wep will require the old wep's multi melee. So if we wanna swap shield, we have to swap wep too. Also if somebody wanna use xan, or ai 1hb hammer, they cant swap shields coz wep needs multi melee. Further more, when shield disappear, they must retwink wep coz cant put on shield.

    Right now the order of putting on weps is very important. If they wont change this, we cant use ANYTHING else, only creation weps, or totally ignore them. Mix wont be possible.

  10. #450
    I agree here that PvM is the problem in why alot of ppl are unhappy, sure AR is mainly meant for pvp, but our worry about the damage has been calculated a bit before. Why nukes dont help on this is because they want us to run out of nano. With the current nanos we will, so instead of being a reliable damage output those nanos are going to instead be bursts of additional damage untill ur nano is out. Then u have to wait a little to replenish ur nano, at which point u can start nuking again.
    If anything they should have made those base nukes for pvm only and made it half the nanocost they are now. Atleast if they want that to be our aditional damage.
    Since the base nuke is the only nuke that is tied to the creation weapons, many ppl will think screw it, then with a much better weapon (more than double as good as shown in previous DD post) just use the mind nukes as burst nuke additional damage since 150ish extra nano per nuke wont really cut into ur nano that much.
    This is where Madmax seems to start to be right. In that case u rather have the AR on another weapon real (not creation) which does do damage
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  11. #451
    Unless they nerf our nano-regain perks from the last perk documents (which I would be surprised at) creation MPs should have about 100k sustainable nuke DPM on 0 AC targets (probably 65kish DPM on high AC targets). We won't be able to spam all of our nukes - that'd be 200k DPM on 0 AC targets - but we should have enough nano to spam the base nuke + a couple of special nukes each minute. The creation 2hb weapons have nano-delta and nano-damage modifiers which would push those figures even higher.

    The other thing that you'd lose switching to a non-creation weapon is 300 damage per hit from the attack pet, which if it has a similar attack cycle as Rihwen would be about 40 hits/minute, or 12k DPM. I'd guess that the best traditional weapons will be slightly better PvM DPM than the creation 2hb, but not by much at all.

  12. #452
    I guess we have received a decent boost to nano skills so we can land our new nuke offence ? or are we all going to run around with 11k HP because we need to wear full cs? Obviously nr perks need to change.. Still the fact of standing still to cast all these nukes, stand infront of a shade or something with no blockers and 2 heal pets
    Still here

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Also there is a problem with current multi melee system.

    If you have 1 wep on for putting on 2nd wep will require the old wep's multi melee. So if we wanna swap shield, we have to swap wep too. Also if somebody wanna use xan, or ai 1hb hammer, they cant swap shields coz wep needs multi melee. Further more, when shield disappear, they must retwink wep coz cant put on shield.

    Right now the order of putting on weps is very important. If they wont change this, we cant use ANYTHING else, only creation weps, or totally ignore them. Mix wont be possible.
    I believe FC had said it would not be possible to dual wield creation and non-creation weapons, so you're right - we will have to either choose to use creations or choose to use traditional weapons.

  14. #454
    DD from Accuracy bow would be near 31k dpm, Chaos bow from Beast would be 66k dpm iirc and 12k dpm from pet

    The rest isnt really relying on the creation bow itself so ud sacrifice 23k dpm for it still. Now ive pushed my DD in the past to about 180-200k dpm with bow if im recalling that correctly My DD with new pet should definitely go up but i think with current figures i wont be able to solo as well as i used to whilst keeping up the same or higher damage figures with creation weapons, cause mind u these calculations were with 0% agg/def, where our bar should be if we want to solo
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    Unless they nerf our nano-regain perks from the last perk documents (which I would be surprised at) creation MPs should have about 100k sustainable nuke DPM on 0 AC targets (probably 65kish DPM on high AC targets). We won't be able to spam all of our nukes - that'd be 200k DPM on 0 AC targets - but we should have enough nano to spam the base nuke + a couple of special nukes each minute. The creation 2hb weapons have nano-delta and nano-damage modifiers which would push those figures even higher.

    The other thing that you'd lose switching to a non-creation weapon is 300 damage per hit from the attack pet, which if it has a similar attack cycle as Rihwen would be about 40 hits/minute, or 12k DPM. I'd guess that the best traditional weapons will be slightly better PvM DPM than the creation 2hb, but not by much at all.
    Trying to force us into nuking won't work. It will just make many people leave their MPs forever if not the game.

    Screw nukes, try to get us AR and weapon MPs will be happy. Try to make us debuffers again and all MPs will be happy. Other things are just minor changes. You are our union professional, you don't have to defend the point of view of FC, that is their job, if they want to explain it they can come here and talk to us and get their ration of hate.

  16. #456
    At the moment, the shields have a "User Cyberdeck &7" requirement. I'm reading that to mean that you have to equip a Creation Weapon, before you can equip the shield. They've also included a playshift requirement, so that any other combination would drop.

    The Creation weapons don't have any such requirement. So I'm reading that to mean that you could, in fact, mix a Creation Weapon with a Non-Creation weapon. Perhaps that is why the creation weapons have a 'Unique' flag at the moment?

    So it looks like you cannot mix a Non-Creation weapon with a creation shield... but you can mix a Non-Creation weapon with a Creation weapon.

    Just reading that from the document... can't really tell if it's intended to be that way.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:47:07.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Trying to force us into nuking won't work. It will just make many people leave their MPs forever if not the game.

    Screw nukes, try to get us AR and weapon MPs will be happy. Try to make us debuffers again and all MPs will be happy. Other things are just minor changes. You are our union professional, you don't have to defend the point of view of FC, that is their job, if they want to explain it they can come here and talk to us and get their ration of hate.
    I've been trying and will continue to try to get us more AR and more useful debuffs. Just because FC hasn't given us something doesn't mean Dancingrage and I haven't thrown up walls of text explaining why we need it.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    I've been trying and will continue to try to get us more AR and more useful debuffs. Just because FC hasn't given us something doesn't mean Dancingrage and I haven't thrown up walls of text explaining why we need it.
    That I know, I just ask you not to explain the vision of FC, you are not the one that has to face us because of it.

  19. #459
    Maybe it could help making a list of what u are asking for if thats allowed by FC

    Edit: That way we wont repeat anything because we know its being said. Then we can focus on backing up what u guys bring to the devs and give numbers with it as to be more persuasive
    Last edited by Metafly7; Apr 3rd, 2011 at 17:41:07.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    I use eye and r-hand imps. 11sec AS with scope. 2,5k is not much, i got 2,6k MC with conc. TS maybe lower a bit, if i have to swap 1 stuff for pet, fine.
    Do share the setup, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    I case you missed it:
    So? Perma init debuffed doesn't sound much better, especially since we lost actual init buff for our pet.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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