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Thread: Engineer Balancing rawr

  1. #1

    Engineer Balancing rawr

    Well no one else is making a thread about it so I will

    1. Role

    Heavy DD, if you can get anything to stand still. Well, we don't offer healing or major debuffs so DD is all we can be right? Otherwise, another AS in the crowd with great defenses against ranged opponents, less so against melee. Owning soldiers, and making Adventurers and Doctors drop a lot faster thanks to NSD aura. Protecting team members with our overpowered auras and being prime targets because of it. In tower wars, we transform into an immobile object to warp back the lazier members of the pack. An object for shades to take their frustration out on because we are so perkable and such bad dancers.

    2. Strengths

    Defense obviously. Our own personal blockers have not been updated in years, but they still do the job. Cocoon, while short-lived vs. most melee professions and NTs nowadays, is still our only real backup and is a powerful tool nonetheless.

    Pets have potential for great damage on anything not moving too fast, and with procs (Master's Bidding, Ravening DoT, Gadgeteer procs) they can sometimes rip low hp professions apart. Unlike MPs and Bureaucrats we are not stuck in nano recharge much so are free to use Improved Pet Attention most of the time, and our pets enjoy the best protection of the three pet profs from roots/snares. Calms can still be pretty rough on Engineer, especially in combination with GTH, or the special crat calm, or crat aoe calm (seems to land every time?).

    Our blockers are highly desired in team situations.

    3. Weaknesses

    Lowest evades of any profession, lowest runspeed of any profession (shared with many others). Longest time/most nano to buff up of any profession. Highest nanoskill requirements for a profession without offensive nanos (and with no nanoskill buffs too, thanks fc).

    No PVP weapon, very few landable perks (personally I can only land tradeskill perks in PVP). All we can seem to get is pistols.

    Defenses can be rather short lived (IMO), especially against melee professions. Perhaps intended by FC, but the combination of wolf mk6/heot/mediblade/viper matching perk damage, the removal of "must be behind", and our total perkability has severely reduced protection via biococcoon from most melee professions

    Pets are as much a pain to maintain as ever. Too many buffs to keep running! BS shells changed nothing, as you still have to swap to cast recent buffs on them anyway. Using a BS shell in decon takes 20 seconds to activate and release the pet, meaning you won't be able to buff it with the nano refilling effects. Using a BS shell outside decon roots you for 10s so you will have to be in a safe place anyway. The pet snare mostly only lands on greenies and other pets. And they still get stuck on fking teleporter ledges!

    4. Overall performance

    Pretty solid on defense, a bit poor on offense. Like most support profs, most engies are a bit tired of the inability to use similar setups in PVM and PVP.

    5. Areas of improvement

    A PvP weapon. Something like a Dreadloch Silverback would be nice, 1700 shotgun + AS or whatever. Other professions can bitch all they like, Engineers have full perk support for shotgun and Easy Shot is the only DD perk we will realistically be able to make use out of in PvP, and commonly used weapons like RE and bow conflict with prime symbiant spots.

    Our defense is strong but it would be nice if we got some improvements that actually helped us personally instead of just people in our team. I doubt we could get more blockers, but maybe an increase in our reflect shield (30%?) or maybe something like 9 special blockers + 1 normal attack blocker/30s (dream mode).

    Null space disruptor should effect damage-to-nano shields. NT nukes are not effected by any engineer defenses (blockers, reflect, high ACs) and one triple clears cocoon. Historically we have been able to defeat NT shields, when Nullity Sphere was the norm. Our tools should be updated to reflect changes to shields. We should be able to rip the Nanobot Guard from an NT like AMS from a soldier or candy from a baby.

    Make grenade perks 50% defcheck. They have so many other things preventing them from being powerful (13s activation, random damage, doesn't match damage type with any weapon Engineers use nor pets), they should at least be made to land with more reliability. I have ~2100 chemistry AR and can't land a 35% defcheck perk vs duckexp on many Advs, Keepers or NTs even, so this change will in no way mean engineers suddenly become able to perk everyone - and even so, from experience being perked by Mountaingoat on my Engineer, it generally does less damage than a capped special...
    Alternately, just make the nanodrain part of the Tinkerer perkline, and based on AR. People consider Demo an Engineer defining perkline and yet, 0 Engineers are using grenades guns for pvp and 1m IP and 10 perks is a lot to sacrifice for the nanodrain.

    Our procs suck. Our best proc is a 13% reflect offensive proc. PVM engies who can hit things, realistically, are not tanking difficult mobs for long periods of time without outside healing. PVP engineers generally have low AR. It needs to be changed to a defensive proc (defensive procs, such as Adventurer's Aesir Absorbtion, have a 10% chance to trigger on being hit as opposed to a 5% chance to trigger on hitting something).

    A way to remove drains and UBT from pets.

    Artillery symbs k? (hey i can dream)
    Last edited by bockrocker; Jul 25th, 2009 at 07:02:41.
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
    Rebalancing - Announced: January 2009 ETA: December 21, 2012 Started! (April 2015)
    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
    AS Changes - Announced: July 2009 ETA: TBA
    Parry/Riposte - Announced: October 2009 ETA: ??? Did it! (April 2015)
    Perk Changes - Announced: October 2009 ETA: Right after server merge Started! (April 2015)
    Breed Change - Announced: November 2009 ETA: Hell freezing They did it!!! (Oct 2012)
    Beta Server - Announced: January 2010 ETA: Pigs Flying Did it! (Feb 2014)

  2. #2

  3. #3
    good post
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

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  4. #4
    decribes the TL7 situation pretty much to the point
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  5. #5
    pretty spot on.
    Devil Inside

  6. #6
    Agreed.

    Also makes for a great application for engi pro...

  7. #7
    Come up with your own format!

  8. #8
    bump
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  9. #9
    Outstanding post (That i will sticky for a while)

    Pretty much sums up the problems, if we can remain as objective as possible through the discussion of how we *FIX* those issues we'll be on to a winner.

    Just please remember its about balance not about making us uber.
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    I was "party A"

  10. #10
    Amep + dusty pistol make a great pve combo, but almost useless pvp combo.

    Using amep + onehander is slightly better, but AS are still very much 'meh', regular hits & fling from onehander arent even worth speaking of.

    Means did promise looking into the 'craphander' after the booster, this would largely solve this issue. My fear however is that it ends up in an smg version for the fixers. Hence my suggestions:

    - fixer smg version (energy damage)
    - can be taken apart and tradeskilled onto a peregrine (the mk6 model has a scope after all!!).
    - tradeskill process gives it projectile damage


    Concerns:

    Unbalance on lower TL(3-4):
    Maintaining the pistol stats of the peregine will keep twinks from getting very high QL versions on. The tradeskill requirement helps with this too as some professions can still get insane pistols skills at low levels (traders for example).

    2-handed AS weapons becomming obsolete:
    Maintain damage stats of the peregine QL300: 248-358 (248) - Projectile AC. Twinked on 2-handed AS weapons will still give better AS results. However engineers now also have another way to go in pvp that gives them more offensive ability against many profs.

    Overpowered alpha
    Possibly let the AS replace the burst special to keep balance and prevent crazy AS/burst/fling/FA/grenade perk setups on engineers when wielding the new AS weapon with a FA pistol.

    Other profs becomming OP with the new gun
    If subject becomes a concern the tradeskill process (and perhaps tradeskill requirements on equip) can prevent crats/adv from getting an easy AS-weapon handed to them. With some effort they will still be able to equip one, but only a lower QL. Another option ofcourse is adding an engy-only requirement, but Im personally for giving people some options to play with on all TL.


    Other then that I would really like more MM for casting things like ISOTOS, aura of slave and charm resist on pets while in combat gear. Mechanic adds 60 MC/TS now, adding MM to it would be great.

    PM/SI reqs on Master's Bidding (1301) are way too high. The highest PM/SI req after this nano is comp tradeskills (1034). This is a very big IP sink for only this nano, especially as you need the 1301 in combat gear due to 10 min duration where you only need the 1034 for comp tradeskills in casting gear.
    Suggestion: increase duration to 1 hour or lower requirements with about 300.

    Oh and let engineers use a mk6 silverback as said by Steeltown. After traders we are the profession that has the most 'rights' to have a good shotgun as its one of our most supported weaponskills.
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  11. #11
    Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uaintseenme View Post
    Just please remember its about balance not about making us uber.
    Fair enough, so long as you recognize that to be balanced, we need some things which are uber.
    <Lazy> who knew ao f*rum denizens were such homophobes?

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bockrocker View Post
    ...

    Like most support profs, most engies are a bit tired of the inability to use similar setups in PVM and PVP.

    ....
    This is the thing, which is the most important idea of all from my point of view.
    Philty - main, engie, proud member of allmighty CzA
    Philtynurse - backup heal
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by bockrocker View Post
    (...)
    Our defense is strong but it would be nice if we got some improvements that actually helped us personally instead of just people in our team. I doubt we could get more blockers, but maybe an increase in our reflect shield (30%?) or maybe something like 9 special blockers + 1 normal attack blocker/30s (dream mode).
    (...)
    Null space disruptor should effect damage-to-nano shields. NT nukes are not effected by any engineer defenses (blockers, reflect, high ACs) and one triple clears cocoon. Historically we have been able to defeat NT shields, when Nullity Sphere was the norm. Our tools should be updated to reflect changes to shields. We should be able to rip the Nanobot Guard from an NT like AMS from a soldier or candy from a baby.
    (...)
    Make grenade perks 50% defcheck. They have so many other things preventing them from being powerful (13s activation, random damage, doesn't match damage type with any weapon Engineers use nor pets), they should at least be made to land with more reliability. I have ~2100 chemistry AR and can't land a 35% defcheck perk vs duckexp on many Advs, Keepers or NTs even, so this change will in no way mean engineers suddenly become able to perk everyone - and even so, from experience being perked by Mountaingoat on my Engineer, it generally does less damage than a capped special...A way to remove drains and UBT from pets.
    (...)
    Bump!

  14. #14
    After some more thought...

    Our terrible runspeed coupled with our low range AoE debuff auras make our debuffs very difficult to use. I think this deserves a mention in the "areas for improvement" section. Long range targeted debuffs with lower defchecks have been a topic for a while. Longer range auras should please everyone if too many people think targeted nanos would be unacceptable.

    Our blind aura used to be a critical component of our PvP toolset, but since PvPers have blind immunity these days, an AAO aura (or targeted nano) which isn't a blind would perhaps restore this piece of our toolset.
    <Lazy> who knew ao f*rum denizens were such homophobes?

    Lordstage Free to do anything
    Byracka iddqd
    Battlespork Eats what he kills
    Bloodforbaal Utter bastard
    Pinealgland Too weird to live, and too rare to die
    Dagenham Radioactive courier
    Fascinated Elderly nature enthusiast

  15. #15
    login frubface!
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
    Rebalancing - Announced: January 2009 ETA: December 21, 2012 Started! (April 2015)
    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
    AS Changes - Announced: July 2009 ETA: TBA
    Parry/Riposte - Announced: October 2009 ETA: ??? Did it! (April 2015)
    Perk Changes - Announced: October 2009 ETA: Right after server merge Started! (April 2015)
    Breed Change - Announced: November 2009 ETA: Hell freezing They did it!!! (Oct 2012)
    Beta Server - Announced: January 2010 ETA: Pigs Flying Did it! (Feb 2014)

  16. #16
    I did, and my PC crashed. I'll try again on a day which isn't the hottest recorded in this city in 70 years.
    <Lazy> who knew ao f*rum denizens were such homophobes?

    Lordstage Free to do anything
    Byracka iddqd
    Battlespork Eats what he kills
    Bloodforbaal Utter bastard
    Pinealgland Too weird to live, and too rare to die
    Dagenham Radioactive courier
    Fascinated Elderly nature enthusiast

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by -Stage- View Post
    I did, and my PC crashed. I'll try again on a day which isn't the hottest recorded in this city in 70 years.
    Al Gore strikes again!
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    Pure DPS - [Setup] - 1701 Fling to cap Sloth - 1% crit is equal to ~28+ damage
    Agg/Def: 100% - 1440 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 150 Ranged Init to cap Sloth
    Agg/Def: 0% - 2640 Nano Init to insta cast Isotos - 1650 Ranged Init to cap Sloth

  18. #18
    Better yet.. when "if" fc introduces the new craphander, actually make this one Eng and 215+ locked so every retarded prof *cough* doctors *cough* crats *cough* don't end up whoring OUR eng weapons for their prof.
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  19. #19
    Maybe might be worth bringing up that our pets work as perfect debuff dispensers for docs/traders, being that we have no way of resisting/removing them and pet NR doesn't exist and wouldn't work if it did. That pretty much results in weakened pets for 2-3 mins after every meet up with a doc or trader, which in turn can be very frustrating.

  20. #20
    Nice post... but still - things are concerning TL7, which is bad imho, but not that bad as things are at lower lvl. when you dont have any buffs, pets are old and buffs are lvl locked. Not many can see that, but engineer has gained less then every proff in Nanos and Weapons - those that are in game are pre SL and SL in itself (in most cases - but or major stuff!).

    As I look at every of my toon, i see Enginer was most fun to play. Many skills, good protection and stuff and actually i could harm in pvp, but I am nostalgic too much... it was 4 years ago! Definatelly, engi need reworked nano stats, new robot type and weapon ( for TL2-5)

    And all of all:

    SELF additional DMG SHIELD. so actually it will be our weapon - dfance.

    I hate FC halved dmg shields in PVP for all classes, leaving engis w/o serious dfance!
    I like PvP
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    TL4: Ladyrazor 112 fixer (retired) / Shha 100 NT / Cycolina lvl 100 NM Enforcer
    + Tons of other chars...
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