Agent pvm-damage stagnates after tl5 and up

[bbar]

It's the cold hard reality of terrible PVM balance. AO is seriously broken and anyone who plays a useless, marginalized profession will suffer until things change.

Over the last 11.5 years, every class has had it's ups and downs, many players have cried fair or foul - that is the nature of an evolving MMO.

In all MMOs there are the Flavour-Of-The-Month and Anarchy Online has been no exception, I have seen all manner of dubious FunCom patches, some classes just happen to go through 'seasonal' phases.

Yes, we can be fiercely passionate about the classes we play, but experienced players soon learn to see past the class prejudice and realise an MMO is a social game. The fun comes from playing with (not against) a live person on the other side of those digital pixals and the perception of 'useless' or 'op' should come with an IMHO tag.

Yes, I do agree with the original poster, that TL5+ the PVM damage stagnates, but that is just the current state of play. Yes, I did enjoy in 2001, equipping a 188 ranee on a 70 agent, yes I did read the forums cry fp-trader was foul, but then I remember fixers pre GA, adventurers pre SL perks, enforcers pre enhanced queens blade, MA with minimal fist damage template, NTs on taking aoe reflect damage, MP with only one attack pet.

There should be no such attitude as an 'holier than thou' in a MMO.

[Psikie]

Over the last 11.5 years, every class has had it's ups and downs, many players have cried fair or foul - that is the nature of an evolving MMO.

In all MMOs there are the Flavour-Of-The-Month and Anarchy Online has been no exception, I have seen all manner of dubious FunCom patches, some classes just happen to go through 'seasonal' phases.

There should be no such attitude as an 'holier than thou' in a MMO.

Thank you, another bright light shines in the fog of AO forums posters.

[Cratertina]

Excellent post sir Bber.

Agents are just agents. Personaly I believe agents should be able to addapt. For example, fp soldier, pick up dshark, cap full auto and do meaningful damage. Oh wait cant they use dshark already?

Also simply uncapin Aimed shots or increasing cap would go a long way. I see no reasons against say 30k aimed shots in their current form. Maybe raise cap for every by 1000 for every 95 AS skill.

[Xootch]

well in this forum one of the following things can happen to a thread expressing a valid point:

1)Everyone disagrees as fixing a minority creates second loss to the majority
2)No one really cares as second loss doesn't reach the cry threshold.

In any of these cases, one or more trolls will start to post unreasonable nonsense and more or less entertaining arguments evolve.

As everything in nature, trolls have a purpose. They draw attention to the topic, give free bumps and are a socially acceptable form of whack-a-mole/leet.

edit: However, I do agree, the percentage of $*$#heads in this game is rising.

[drainbamage]

Over the last 11.5 years, every class has had it's ups and downs, many players have cried fair or foul - that is the nature of an evolving MMO.

In all MMOs there are the Flavour-Of-The-Month and Anarchy Online has been no exception, I have seen all manner of dubious FunCom patches, some classes just happen to go through 'seasonal' phases.

In AO it is more like Flavour-of-the-Year (and last year, and the year before that, and so on...).
This is not a case of a couple of nerfs or buffs moving a profession above or below the line, it is a case of multiple professions being totally neglected - hell, forsaken even - by Funcom for an excessive period of time.

Yes, we can be fiercely passionate about the classes we play, but experienced players soon learn to see past the class prejudice and realise an MMO is a social game. The fun comes from playing with (not against) a live person on the other side of those digital pixals and the perception of 'useless' or 'op' should come with an IMHO tag.

Yes, I do agree with the original poster, that TL5+ the PVM damage stagnates, but that is just the current state of play. Yes, I did enjoy in 2001, equipping a 188 ranee on a 70 agent, yes I did read the forums cry fp-trader was foul, but then I remember fixers pre GA, adventurers pre SL perks, enforcers pre enhanced queens blade, MA with minimal fist damage template, NTs on taking aoe reflect damage, MP with only one attack pet.

There should be no such attitude as an 'holier than thou' in a MMO.

This isn't about being holier than thou. It's about numbers.

I feel sorry for the people who play and enjoy these professions. They're getting shafted for playing what they enjoy. I know what it's like; I played a ret paladin in WoW during Vanilla and BC, and it was only through my guild connections (established using a different character with a class & spec that was actually desirable in the endgame at the time) that he ever got to raid at all. When Blizzard finally abandoned the idea of some classes/specs being intentionally worthless in endgame raiding I was overjoyed; I could play what I wanted (ret paladin) without feeling like dead weight. And while endgame AO is not exactly difficult, when you are forming a team and have a choice between a profession that is objectively better at what they do, often by significant margins, than the other profession, you'll probably take the better one, if only to clear faster.

Trying to play down the huge and persisting imbalance is doing a disservice to the people who play these professions and who want to participate in, and make actual contributions to, endgame teams.

[Obtena]

Yes, I do agree with the original poster, that TL5+ the PVM damage stagnates, but that is just the current state of play.

Then the current state of play is unacceptable .... and not for just agents mind you. Let me remind you of the subtle re-balancing effort on the horizon. A simple, indirect acknowledgement from FC that even the current game state is not acceptable.

[Gatester]

MP with only one attack pet.

I am assuming you meant engineers or crats? Otherwise your point is still valid about times when professions were less viable than others, and the times MP had only one attack pet being one of them

[bbar]

I am assuming you meant engineers or crats? Otherwise your point is still valid about times when professions were less viable than others, and the times MP had only one attack pet being one of them

Prior to Dec 2001, MPs had no mez pets, neither did the heal pet work reliably after the first heal target. The MP like other classes I remember had a dreadful history of viability, incremental and slow fixes.

After the 'MP patch', everyone loved them, rolled and experimented with one, I didn't. As with my Agent, I could fp MP and summon a Cacodemon and a Belamorte. I still have those nanos loaded.

/born
Alias was born on Fri Oct 12 00:09:07 2001

When I first rolled an agent, there were no limits to visual profession, I would like to have said I could do anything, I shall instead say agents could 'viably' cover more classes then today.

As with the nature of people, players see things as 'relative' rather then in absolute terms. I believe that the objective of PVM is a sense of accomplishment, but PVM is often coloured in the light of PVP. Some players see the ultimate goal of PVM is to procure the tools to dominate in PVP, and PVP has always been governed by the emotional competitive spirit. That emotional spirit is no doubt the most vocal on these forums.

FunCom have never been able to achieve PVM balance with PVP balance, that is not to the lack of trying, it has just been a rather poor record. There in lies the problem with agreeing or disagreeing with the original posters statement.

A player that agrees/allows agents to increase PVM damage will consciously (or unconsciously) know PVP viability will improve as a result. If that player does not currently play an agent, then eventually, given a cause, will react with a competitive spirit on protecting their relative class standings.

Trying to play down the huge and persisting imbalance is doing a disservice to the people who play these professions and who want to participate in, and make actual contributions to, endgame teams.

Yes I agree., but not in the manner this thread has devolved into.

[Lazy]

As with the nature of people, players see things as 'relative' rather then in absolute terms. I believe that the objective of PVM is a sense of accomplishment, but PVM is often coloured in the light of PVP. Some players see the ultimate goal of PVM is to procure the tools to dominate in PVP, and PVP has always been governed by the emotional competitive spirit. That emotional spirit is no doubt the most vocal on these forums.

so what would the point of pvm be? the farming of gear? is it just to pvm better?

[bbar]

so what would the point of pvm be? the farming of gear? is it just to pvm better?

Up until a point, for example, the release of LOX and the fixed db3, AO has been incredibly stagnant. The use of AI armour, released in 2004 is still considered reasonable.

In comparison, I'll use WOW (just one of many other MMOs) has repeatedly released new expansions that totally invalidate previous and past expansions. Each expansion has been in power curve terms what the release of SL did to original RK.

To marry this to the original posters argument, PVM TL6 and TL7 is IMHO stagnant after TL5.

A 220 character can with TL5 symbiants, farm experience to be 220/30/70, to farm enough points to equip QL300 ofab items and still be PVM viable.

In WOW it is simply impossible to do endgame, unless your character has jumped through all the previous hoops. Tier 1 to 14 or equivalent items. My warlock lvl 70 in t4 (2007) for example did 1k dps, by lvl 80 in t8/8.5 (2008/2009) I had to be doing 4k dps. I understand todays lvl 90s in t12-14 have to be doing 40k dps.

I am merely trying to say that I have had experience with steep progression, highly gear centric MMOs, but I love the lore and the diverse itemisation. No other game has IP distribution, weapon, clothing and implant wear tabs. My agent looks sufficiently different from another agent to give me a sense of identity. Whether my back slot is a burden, notucomm, ofab or SSC depends on my mood and the encounter I am about to face. In comparison a tier 14 warlock is identical to another tier 14 warlock bar its character name.

I think you have derailed me from the thread and I suspect I haven't actually answered your question, my answer would probably be different from your interpretation, enough so, to make a third party scratch their head.

To me, Anarchy PVM is a relaxing break from WOW PVM, my 2013 220/30/6x agent feels mine, just as my 220/xx agent felt in 2004. I could spend a few more months adding another alpha or 2, I don't feel the need to achieve everything PVM has to offer immediately and in PVP I sometimes win, other times lose.

[Lazy]

i guess you and i see pvm differently. i see pvm as a hurdle that i need to clear as quickly and efficiently as possible to be more viable in pvp. why do i put in that alpha? because it adds a couple more points in a skill i need that will improve my chances of landing a perk or resisting a nano in pvp. why do i do encounter x? because it drops an item that is statistically better in a certain situation than another item that i currently use in that slot. etc etc.

the point is, being a pvp junkie still requires people to be viable in, and successfully complete pvm and simply saying "pvm takes a backseat to pvp" is TECHNICALLY correct, but unfortunately, unlike WoW, all the pvp gear comes from pvm encounters and if a toon isn't wanted for those pvm encounters they won't get the gear the need to pvp effectively.

you know?

to steer this conversation back onto the current topic of agent pvm dmg stagnating after tl5: agents are currently above average in pvp. some might even say top-tier. however since they are so woefully abysmal in pvm they are unable to farm the phatz they need to do pvp if they don't have a more useful prof to do the encounter with and then relog to agent to loot.

[Otansaanpas]

have a more useful prof to do the encounter with and then relog to agent to loot.

if this weren't intended, FC would have fixed it by now.

[sultryvoltron]

to steer this conversation back onto the current topic of agent pvm dmg stagnating after tl5: agents are currently above average in pvp. some might even say top-tier. however since they are so woefully abysmal in pvm they are unable to farm the phatz they need to do pvp if they don't have a more useful prof to do the encounter with and then relog to agent to loot.

I just wish they would revert the BS changes and give Agents some CC removal.

[Lazy]

if this weren't intended, FC would have fixed it by now.

you mean like gauntlet?

[Psikie]

i guess you and i see pvm differently. i see pvm as a hurdle that i need to clear as quickly and efficiently as possible to be more viable in pvp.

The most efficient team is always enf/sol/doc/crat/+2. So I think unless it's a specific encounter that reqs something like 12m-keeper any 2 can be put in those last 2 slots and be "effective" in a team. I much rather have 2 good agents than 2 extra soldiers that use AMS 1 and ql250ofab guns. Whether it's fp doc just to ubt/assist heal or fp to do some extra CC, agents "should" be more welcomed.

the point is, being a pvp junkie still requires people to be viable in, and successfully complete pvm and simply saying "pvm takes a backseat to pvp" is TECHNICALLY correct

There in lies part of the difference of opinion. To some it's the journey not the end goal that brings enjoyment. If your goal is pvp then yes being 100% tip top shape 100% of time is a different view of what is "playable" or usefull. I still remember doing SL brand new with lvl 200 and all rk gear. I don't think anyone would dispute that a toon today is leaps and bounds better than toons back then as far as "playable" vs the current content.

to steer this conversation back onto the current topic of agent pvm dmg stagnating after tl5: agents are currently above average in pvp. some might even say top-tier. however since they are so woefully abysmal in pvm they are unable to farm the phatz they need to do pvp if they don't have a more useful prof to do the encounter with and then relog to agent to loot.

Straight up cop out and a falacy. With the +DD patch all toons are doing more dmg than in the past, so it bewilders me to see a post about post when DD for all toons just went up a few months ago. If only because some toons benefit more that perception of usefullness is subjective. As ALL toons are currently more usefull than they were a year ago due to increased DD.

I have always thought actions speak louder than words. So I am willing to log onto test server with anyone and load up a bare bones agent vs whatever and lets compare dd using only whatever AUTO gives, I guarantee the DD is not nearly as bad AS THE FIRE AND BRIMSTONE STORIES some of these posts would lead people to believe.

As far as the OP goes...tl5 only seems to stagnate because 90% of all agent gear is obtainable and wearable at tl5 (with those versatile fp's some are discounting) except for some symbs and lvl locked items. So that gives agents an advantage at lower lvls that balances out (drops off) at top end.

[Lazy]

The most efficient team is always enf/sol/doc/crat/+2. So I think unless it's a specific encounter that reqs something like 12m-keeper any 2 can be put in those last 2 slots and be "effective" in a team. I much rather have 2 good agents than 2 extra soldiers that use AMS 1 and ql250ofab guns. Whether it's fp doc just to ubt/assist heal or fp to do some extra CC, agents "should" be more welcomed.

i'd rather have 2 real dd profs for those dd slots. say, a shade and an engie. or an extra crat.

There in lies part of the difference of opinion. To some it's the journey not the end goal that brings enjoyment. If your goal is pvp then yes being 100% tip top shape 100% of time is a different view of what is "playable" or usefull. I still remember doing SL brand new with lvl 200 and all rk gear. I don't think anyone would dispute that a toon today is leaps and bounds better than toons back then as far as "playable" vs the current content.

cool story bro

Straight up cop out and a falacy. With the +DD patch all toons are doing more dmg than in the past, so it bewilders me to see a post about post when DD for all toons just went up a few months ago. If only because some toons benefit more that perception of usefullness is subjective. As ALL toons are currently more usefull than they were a year ago due to increased DD.

I have always thought actions speak louder than words. So I am willing to log onto test server with anyone and load up a bare bones agent vs whatever and lets compare dd using only whatever AUTO gives, I guarantee the DD is not nearly as bad AS THE FIRE AND BRIMSTONE STORIES some of these posts would lead people to believe.

As far as the OP goes...tl5 only seems to stagnate because 90% of all agent gear is obtainable and wearable at tl5 (with those versatile fp's some are discounting) except for some symbs and lvl locked items. So that gives agents an advantage at lower lvls that balances out (drops off) at top end.

http://i.imgur.com/SEpCU.gif

[sultryvoltron]

I have always thought actions speak louder than words. So I am willing to log onto test server with anyone and load up a bare bones agent vs whatever and lets compare dd using only whatever AUTO gives, I guarantee the DD is not nearly as bad AS THE FIRE AND BRIMSTONE STORIES some of these posts would lead people to believe.

As far as the OP goes...tl5 only seems to stagnate because 90% of all agent gear is obtainable and wearable at tl5 (with those versatile fp's some are discounting) except for some symbs and lvl locked items. So that gives agents an advantage at lower lvls that balances out (drops off) at top end.

Comedy gold.

[Xootch]

Comedy gold.

that, dear sir, is not reasonable flaming. please try again.

[Psikie]

[QUOTE=Lazy;6108036]cool story bro

Comedy gold.

Talk is cheap...Put up or shut up. Come over to test and run your DD logger. How is saturday/sunday anytime you are available.

You guys talk an awful lot but your snarky remarks don't hold up under the action part. Afterward I will have another cool story to tell bro-hams. This wouldn't be the first time i've made you eat your words.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ya. Since procs are also subject to add dmg now... agents have probably gained close to as much as shade or enf in terms of real DPS increases.

The first hit on dots (dead cold, doc ones, waves of whatever, grim reaper are all subject to add dmg as well)

Shock nanos adding BOTH add dmg and retarded high chances to proc... I'd say agents are close to highest number of potential hits per minute as any other prof.

Best way to make use of them though is single handed weapons, lots of specials and fast recharge times... so, I think it's pretty obvious that the trick is going to be a troaler+pehwer to really get the specials moving.

Obviously, perk damage is going to be barely noticable...but I'd bet the extra 6 normals, 10 flings and 7ish bursts are going to significantly outperform the whatever 20k damage you'd get from rifle perks anyway.

Edit: I calced easily hitting 1k add dmg on my 200 agent. So based on 1k add dmg on projectile damage, and 36% proc chance using Waves of trauma and harm shock, if you cap fling, burst, and have multiple mobs to chain AS on, (in otherwords, utilizing all specials), you'd get 6normals+7Burst per minute = net 13 more potential attacks *136% = 18 extra hits at least 1000 dmg means just on add damage benefits you'd get an extra 18k damage.. not including the extra damage coming from the attack themselves.

The only downfall is the crit bonus on the troaler and pewher are significantly lower than that on the cobra.

Even still, I'd put my money on the higher number of attacks per minute and big add dmg to pump out better PVM damage than a rifle.