Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #561
    When discussing the MP ability to land hits and perks and MP AAD - we should probably also take into account, that we will have an AAD/AAO debuff available as a pet proc. Max value is -200 AAD and -150 AAO.

    Now obviously, there is a leap of faith for MPs involved here. FC have said that pets will be able to hit well in PvP - and they're making changes to reduce kiting etc.... but as MPs we have some scepticism about this, I'd imagine. But let's assume, for a moment, that they do achieve their goals - and that the pets really do perform well in the PvP environment.

    That would mean that against a given target, you'd effectively have +200 AAO and +150 AAD from the proc.

    Just saying, is all. Not jumping up and down and singing hallelujas, because the premise of the pets hitting effectively in PvP play hasn't happened yet. But assuming FC achieve what they want to... that proc alone may be a serious aid to the AR/AAD issues being raised here.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  2. #562
    Ur most probably right there X, the hazzards of the past will most definitely be hunting the minds of Mps about the future. That what doesnt help now wont help in the future untill proven otherwise. Thats why i love the replies of Kintaii, that help me ease my mind. But at the same time that means that giving feedback on the nanodocument is absolutely useless, atleast not considering typo's. They did ask for feedback tho.
    In other words i dont understand that they asked us right from the beginning to take into calculation that there were gonna be itemisation changes. Or what they have in mind to add skillswise from items in addition to our nanodocument.
    Seeing as itemisation wont only affect us tho, there is a very likely chance that other profession items will change just as much as ours, which again brings up problems like evades and AR.

    Ill await further changes before giving any other feedback, after reading the damage from creation weapons post again and again, i came to the conclusion that the devs most likely have exactly that same information ready in a file somewhere. Accuracy + pet damage equals Chaos bow damage but just not in 0% agg/def. So they do most likely know what they are doing.

    Again, waiting untill changes, so any more replies from me are gonna be low untill something different informational wise pops up
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  3. #563
    X: yes, i saw. That nano will help us in face-to-face fights a lot. But, that wont solve 1 thing: how we survive vs more targets? Fighting 1 vs 1 is fine, but vs 2 or 3? And i dont say we must win vs more, just stay alive for a bit! Dmg debuff, healpet and more evades help vs more targets, but that proc wont defend us from everybody. But still ill love that proc.

    Metafly7: yes, when everything gonna change, hard to say what we need. But, i dont think other ppl will get more AR than current top (3,3-3,7k on fix/sol). We can give some feedback, especially about the ideas of changing directions (like dtp, creations) but guess we already did that.

  4. #564
    Indeed, i dont think there is much more we can tell them now, alot has been repeated and half of it has been told to wait for item changes. So guess well have to do that
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  5. #565
    Do we have anything which has replaced coc? or is our CC 100% dependant on the mezz pet?
    Still here

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Do we have anything which has replaced coc? or is our CC 100% dependant on the mezz pet?
    Based on current doc, nothing replaced CoC. If Mezz pet doesnt work... guess what :3 WE DOMMED
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  7. #567
    X: yes, i saw. That nano will help us in face-to-face fights a lot. But, that wont solve 1 thing: how we survive vs more targets?
    Well... increased hits on a target can help us fire off our Def Procs more reliably and more often. So it can help indirectly.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  8. #568
    Those Def Procs was the worst idea. If proc not up we get wiped. Our survive is based on an a low % proc.. great! Its like give docs BI nano in proc. If they are lucky, they may survive.. rofl.
    Imo replace that proc with a less offensive proc (like 10-15% nano dmg, or 200 nr or whatever).

  9. #569
    Very nice to see a def answering in this thread.

    For me, the biggest question remains unanswered though. What is the supposed role of an MP in a team? Why should any team invite us?
    Right now, we don't get invites. Our damage is ok, our healing is laughable. The one place where an MP is actually asked for, is to NSD at Ice Golem or Inf key.

    After rebalancing, so far, I don't see what has improved for MPs. Right now, the only purpose I can see is to max damage. Noone will invite us for our heal pet alone. NSD has actually been nerfed big time, especially in PvM. Even when all bosses lose all immunity, we won't get teams for NSDing, because in this implementation it won't make raiding any easier. I already explained that above: as long as the team can survive the majority of time without NSD, it can survive the 7 seconds with NSD as well. Therefore, no MP will be invited for this.
    So, why should a team invite an MP? If this question doesn't have an answer, you might as well delete the profession altogether.

    On the subject of the creation weapons: Please don't repeat one of the design flaws of SL, the slow weapons. Noone uses those, period. There are many reasons for this:
    1. As an MP, we don't have many static defenses. We don't have an "oh crap" button. Our only chance of survival is to stay full def, all the time, 100%.
    2. To reach an attack speed of 1/1 with the current bows on full def, you would need a whooping 4350 Inits... This is of course not possible. The Fling recharge of the bow would be something like 30 seconds with maxed out Fling shot and CSS.
    3. Every time you move, or you cast a nano, it interrupts attacking. So, for a squishy casting prof like we are, attacking as fast as possible with a weapon is one of the base things we look for in a weapon. If it is not possible to reach 1/1, the weapon has to give some pretty good compensation for that. These bows so far do not achieve that in my eyes. It has already been worked out, that the bow does a fraction of the damage of the currently available bows in game. And that was calculated without taking into account that you interrupt your attacking by moving and/or casting.
    4. for me, to even consider wearing these weapons, the mods the bows give would have to be seriously increased, something like triple the nanoskills and nanodamage mods of now. Yes, being slow is that bad. The weapon would be worn solely for the mods.

    So, maximum of 1.5/1.5 speed, preferably less, with nanoinit, would be the only way to go for creation weapons imho. Otherwise, noone will use them, and that would be pretty sad, since they are a cool concept.

    Personally I just would duplicate the NT cyberdecks. 1/1, 200-300 damage, with the mods the bows already have.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Camar View Post
    Noone will invite us for our heal pet alone.
    The heal pet is in many ways better than a doctor for single target healing, as it has potentially the second best healing over time from my understandinfg along with the ability to sustain high levels of healing constantly where a doctor would run out of nano. It's a godsend for things like raids, leaving the healers to save their nano more for emergencies and letting the healers use other tools more easily.

    If people don't appreciate those benefits, they're probably not worth teaming with
    Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
    Varinox - Omni Level 220 Meta-Physicist on Atlantean
    Yamarra - Omni Level 150 Shade on Atlantean

    Feel free to send me any tell in game or a Private Message if you require anything.

  11. #571
    It's less than half the HPM of a doc or heal morph adv, but still, the heal pet should be useful for teams. Tanks are going to notice when they've got one and when they don't.

  12. #572
    Yeah, I have to say the heal pet is probably the most significant upgrade in the mp doc. 61k hp/min is almost twice what an advy spamming BoL can do currently (roughly 36k hp/min)


  13. #573
    I share your fear Camar. Thats not answered yet. Our toolset helpful, but not a must. Maybe, if mezz pet works very well, may stop half of the mobs that attacking the tank. Maybe.

    I have no idea what we should have to support a team well and make ppl say "we need an mp". Tanks are cool, most of them fine on nano with pnh/nt near them. Evade buff is 2h long, maybe 1h on target buff would be better so ppl may consider getting us into team. I wonder how we will do in team. Spamming dmg debuff, dmg, giving hp, evade. Maybe all these will make us worth to invite but who knows.

  14. #574
    I too am worried about the MP Role. There isn't really a clear role for us to fill.

    That said, the 'fairly strong in everything' position can actually work, if we're strong enough in a few of them. Immediately after SL, that was exactly the position that MPs were in; good support heal, one mez that worked in SL - though crats did it better, second best nano heal, strong damage but not the best, some debuffs - but nothing ground breaking.

    But despite that, MPs were actually very sought after in teams.

    So this tool-set as it stands can probably work. Nanocosts are massively higher across the board, so second best nano healer will be useful. Our healing is strong - but not as good as others. Our damage will be strong but not as good as others. Our debuffs will be strong, but probably not as good as others and our mez pet the same again.

    But the combination of all of those things at the same time can work to make the MP really attractive to teams.

    The biggest worry with this approach, is maintaining it. What happened after SL was that other professions made a case based on what their intended design and role should be... and they continued to improve in leaps and strides on specific parts of their toolsets. But the MPs couldn't really make that case about each part of their toolset - so ours tended to get left behind a bit.

    In the end, all of our tools had lagged too far behind those of other professions, and we lost our contribution.

    If this is the route that the MP is being pushed towards, then all of the key elements need to be improved continually in future patches/expansions; good damage, good heals, good nano heals, good mez pet and good debuffs. As soon as even one or two of them, starts to drift further behind the strengths other professions in those areas... then the MP contribution will fall apart.

    It's not what I would choose though. It's much better for a profession to have a clear primary contribution, that they can rely upon to be strengthened and enhanced in future. That is a much better guarantee of present and future team desirability.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  15. #575
    I understand hard to make a key ability unique for 1 (or 2) profs. There are only few very important abilities we need during most raids. Hard to find a good share between profs.

    If you keep giving new and more abilities, combinating them breaks the challenge. Once we tried this at vortexx: crat, engi, adv. So init debuff and def, reflect and blind , extra healeff from pf made us 3 able to kill vortexx in fair time without risk.

    MPs with this will worth to get. I wanna test this

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Phargus View Post
    Yeah, I have to say the heal pet is probably the most significant upgrade in the mp doc. 61k hp/min is almost twice what an advy spamming BoL can do currently (roughly 36k hp/min)
    That is, if 1 nano per cast doesn't change for fully trained SS pet, which I doubt.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    That is, if 1 nano per cast doesn't change for fully trained SS pet, which I doubt.
    This. I very much doubt Healpets will be able to spam heals endlessly.
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    it's written in the bible.
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  18. #578
    We'll just have to see I guess. But that would be a pretty stupid design decision considering there's no way to regain the heal pets nano. Maybe if they added some sort of nano transfer from the mp to the heal pet...


  19. #579

    Funcom employee

    Me and Genele have already talked about this one and your redesigned pets will find it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT if not *impossible* to run out of nano. 'cause that's just lame.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  20. #580
    Great news, thank you for clearing that up .

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