Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #221
    I did include the init reductions as damage % reductions - which effectively they are. I applied them after the base damage reduction - because this is (broadly) how they effectively work.

    As I said though... I believe that I quite heavily underestimated the effects of evades - and I didn't include any AAO debuffs (e.g. blinds) in there.

    The contribution of the Damage Debuffs has always suffered from this effect, which is one of the reasons why you'll often see team or raid leaders looking for Docs/Crats for init debuffs... but very rarely see them looking for MP damage debuffs. Effective %age reductions are generally more effective than absolute value reductions.

    Another area where they'll be really useful, will be soloing though - as they always have been. But note: the present 920 + inits debuff from the 3 debuffs added together can be maintained 100% of the time. But the new ones give 2300 1/3 of the time, which is an average 766 over time... so actually less than the existing debuffs give.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 26th, 2011 at 10:12:24.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  2. #222
    With the Upcoming heal pet changes so the heal pet will likely be healing for massive amounts you probably won't be having to debuff a lot in general.

    Debuffing for 10s for -2300 is always nice though for those tight moments when the heal pet isn't healing in a solo situation.

  3. #223
    If we dont need them anyways then why put them in the document anyways? Would be better maybe if the debuff worked as -damage for a number of hits, with a cooldown for using the nano again after for instance those 20 seconds. In that case the combination with other debuffs is still benefitial but doesnt make it to powerfull in my mind.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  4. #224
    Checking the Nano Document here i notice another rather nasty problem with the damage debuffs: the nanocost is enormous so Abolish Fury+Abolish Hatred is 6.8k nanocost add in that Mind Blow is 2500(roughly) nanocost you get about 9.3k nanocost altogether so you might get it off the first time but you'll be so drained from doing that combo you'd have to wait till full nano to do it again.

    EDIT: The Mind Blow comes from the fact that you could probably get a couple off during the cooldown of the Damage Debuffs.
    Last edited by rizma; Mar 26th, 2011 at 12:12:50. Reason: Add in

  5. #225
    so Abolish Fury+Abolish Hatred is 6.8k nanocost add in that Mind Blow is 2500(roughly) nanocost you get about 9.3k nanocost altogether
    You'd only be able to cast Abolish Hatred... you can't cast Abolish Fury and then Abolish hatred on the same target soon after... because the immunity buff on the target will stop you from doing so. All of the damage debuffs cast the same immunity nano... even though the immunity is only lilsted once.

    You could in theory debuff several targets with Abolish Hatred at the same time and in quick succession... but yes, as you point out, the nano costs are prohibitive.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  6. #226
    So basically no blockers,more healing but slightly less def v old under SS ranged mp?

    Not so hard to test, get evades ob'd, grab another mp for two heal pets to simulate the healing and go stand infront of something like an Enfo without blockers.. See you back in in a few seconds

    Will be interesting to test all this stuff out.. The bow's speed is obviously very wrong, 1/1 or just dont bother, Tigress is all ready painfullly slow.
    Still here

  7. #227
    Xtremetech think there will be any chance for higher -nanocost buffs to compensate for the nanocost issue or would it infringe too much on the NT line?

  8. #228
    No because the nanocost cap is put at 45% for Trox, 50% for Opi and Soli and 55% for Nanomage
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  9. #229
    This will be truly interesting then might make my city raids a lot more challenging instead of just doing NSD hacker/healer alien kill aliens debuff General should be fun especially with the nanocost situation.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by rizma View Post
    Xtremetech think there will be any chance for higher -nanocost buffs to compensate for the nanocost issue or would it infringe too much on the NT line?
    MPs already cap nanocost, there is no need for more -nanocost buffs. Nanoregain is what we would need and that is going more on the NT or trader line (thats it, we are becoming NTs and that is the playstyle Xtremetech wants, other MPs have different views).

    The increased nanocost is intentional to prevent MPs from making constant huge damage with nanos so you can't ask for decreased nanocost unless you take out the big alpha nanos, but you are not forced to use them anyway, you can use base nukes.

    The loss of the debuff role is a problem but that comes with the nuking MP, you can't use much nanos at the same time, the weapon MP can use his weapons and pets to make damage and at the same time keep a target debuffed even if the debuffs have to be cast frecuently.

  11. #231
    I think we need to stop making assumptions on what other ppl want and also stop feeling attacked if ur really not. Just explain what u think from ur own end and keep it at that or maybe even respond with reasoning to others about why u think they are incorrect but loose suggestions that u know what others want or just saying that Mps are in bad shape doesnt add anything to a conversation.

    What i understand from Madmax tho.. U want to maintain a Warmeta sort of playstyle i take it?
    The term Warmeta is something ive always liked and strived for to do, i dont send in my pet first but myself. So for that i need to be able to take the blow and evade as much as possible, whilst also doing enough damage to in pvp scare ppl into fleeing and to kill mobs before they kill me.
    If we were becoming NTs i think wed be having NR debuffs, DoTs, Different nukes for different targets (ie Fixers (grid nukes), Reflects (tripples and doubles), AOE nukes) and the likes. Thats not what it looks like so far, Atm we have opening, middle and close nukes. Now we dont know how the NT document is gonna be so i have to be carefull not to say that NT document is not gonna be like that, but i do believe that their Nukes are going to be far more advanced in each direction than what we have. We have gone from two different nukes to three. Which i can hardly call NT-worthy.

    I do indeed worry about the weapon damage as probably some have already seen in my earlier posts, because it looks like their damage in the setups we mostly use are not going to be good damage compared to current Beast weaponry. Now because those creations allow us to let our pets do more damage they dont have to be as good as beast weapons. But to maintain a sort of comparability with other pet users, whose damage due to having more attack pets might already exceed ours, we will need the creation weapons + pet buff to come somewhere close to the Beast weapons, or our damage might just fall back into the range of Enforcers whose main focus is on keeping aggro and not damage. (not talking pvp here obviously... those monsters.....)
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Metafly7 View Post
    I think we need to stop making assumptions on what other ppl want and also stop feeling attacked if ur really not. Just explain what u think from ur own end and keep it at that or maybe even respond with reasoning to others about why u think they are incorrect but loose suggestions that u know what others want or just saying that Mps are in bad shape doesnt add anything to a conversation.
    I don't make assumptions, you only have to ask him, he won't lie. It is also what our professionals want, the difference is that justinsane is trying to keep other MP views working while others just say it is impossible, don't bother to ask, you have to ask for this and this and you will never be able to have this (although we had it in the past).

    What i understand from Madmax tho.. U want to maintain a Warmeta sort of playstyle i take it?
    The term Warmeta is something ive always liked and strived for to do, i dont send in my pet first but myself. So for that i need to be able to take the blow and evade as much as possible, whilst also doing enough damage to in pvp scare ppl into fleeing and to kill mobs before they kill me.
    Not even close, I am a ranged meta, I specially like pistols, one of the weapon possibilities we have. The description you give is for melee MPs.

    If we were becoming NTs i think wed be having NR debuffs, DoTs, Different nukes for different targets (ie Fixers (grid nukes), Reflects (tripples and doubles), AOE nukes) and the likes. Thats not what it looks like so far, Atm we have opening, middle and close nukes. Now we dont know how the NT document is gonna be so i have to be carefull not to say that NT document is not gonna be like that, but i do believe that their Nukes are going to be far more advanced in each direction than what we have. We have gone from two different nukes to three. Which i can hardly call NT-worthy.
    I am not talking about the future NT, but the current one. Yes, that is what I say, some people want and if you read a bit, have also promised us we could have the same tools NTs had. MPs got the nukes and lost many things in the way.

    I do indeed worry about the weapon damage as probably some have already seen in my earlier posts, because it looks like their damage in the setups we mostly use are not going to be good damage compared to current Beast weaponry. Now because those creations allow us to let our pets do more damage they dont have to be as good as beast weapons. But to maintain a sort of comparability with other pet users, whose damage due to having more attack pets might already exceed ours, we will need the creation weapons + pet buff to come somewhere close to the Beast weapons, or our damage might just fall back into the range of Enforcers whose main focus is on keeping aggro and not damage. (not talking pvp here obviously... those monsters.....)
    We just need AR and a bit of weapon support, it is not that hard to get it for all the level ranges.

    The 2hb staff from SoM could be great for the future MPs, it is one of our "supported" weapons. It could help beat the nano problems lowby MPs have, but they lack a minimum AR to have it work properly. The damage won't be as great as in the hands of a trader, an enforcer... but the hit rate should be the same.

    Most of the old weapon options are much better off now than the new creations.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Most of the old weapon options are much better off now than the new creations.
    That's is what Metafly said so far.

    And our lovely Xtremtech is sugesting that we get our Debuff power back in pvm.

    I do suport both.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  14. #234
    Ok then, how about a set of PVM only damage debuffs in contrast to the proposed ones which could be intended for emergency use or PVP situations.

    -790 damage add debuff that lasts for 30 seconds and no "lockout". It would provide the same amount of damage mitigation as our current one, but it does look better. In fact, its pretty much exactly like what we have now except for the 10 second duration and constant recasting of the more effective debuff.

    When calculating mitigation benefit, you also cannot just take a single-weapon mob and try to calculate it. Bosses like Vortex and Aune have 3 or 4 weapons, and can hit rather rapidly at times.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    That's is what Metafly said so far.

    And our lovely Xtremtech is sugesting that we get our Debuff power back in pvm.

    I do suport both.
    Metafly wants to go the creation rute, he already has been given that option with better alternative damage, I want to use normal weapons and I know I won't have the same pets damage neither the same nuking power but of course I want to do damage with the weapons as a tradeoff.

    Debuff power in PvM and PvP, the debuff power MPs actually have is not that great neither overpowered. As a debuff profession keeping the relative MP debuffing power is a minimum.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Ok then, how about a set of PVM only damage debuffs in contrast to the proposed ones which could be intended for emergency use or PVP situations.

    -790 damage add debuff that lasts for 30 seconds and no "lockout". It would provide the same amount of damage mitigation as our current one, but it does look better. In fact, its pretty much exactly like what we have now except for the 10 second duration and constant recasting of the more effective debuff.
    Its actually less than what we have today. Atm, if I focus on DD debuff i can keep 4 mobs 100% debuffed 99% of time.

    And, what I want and what I think most MPs want is a bump in our debuffs power in pvm and pvp. Current Nano doc bump it in pvp, but nerf it in pvm.

    So, take away the immunity in pvm and keep it in pvp and we will have dinamic debuffable power where the MP will decide what to debuff, when to debuff and who to debuff.

    I could also ask to give us back Unmakes and Dominates, with lower duration ofc; because they are inteligent way to debuff. You need to know your enemy to debuff well.

    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Metafly wants to go the creation rute, he already has been given that option with better alternative damage, I want to use normal weapons and I know I won't have the same pets damage neither the same nuking power but of course I want to do damage with the weapons as a tradeoff.
    What Metafly want don't change what he said: "Creation Weaps do 1/2 of Normal Weaps current avaliable." Ever if we add Base nuke spam with Trance perked, normal weapons will do more damage.

    So, atm you are still better than a Creation Bow MP. Those creations should be a viable choice, not a forgoteen ones like today. Today only 2 creations are used so far.

    Ppl says they are OP. I do say they are OP. But we have far more creation today than 2. This need to be changed. And nerf then beonce imagination will not help Normal Weapon MPs.

    Personally I think MPs should perform the same no matter what weapon they are using. Quick but with lower DD Creation Weapons with the Staff Pet buffs and Base nukes will make it. Current Creation will not be used; maybe Szet+Titanium or dual Titanium, but not the rest.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  17. #237
    Partly right, im trying to make creation weapons comparable with normal weaponry, i dont see why one wants to stick to normal weapons so badly tho?

    If creation weapons were exactly as strong as normal weapons and it also has a benefit for pets, ud still not use them?

    I rather have an aspect that is already there become as usable as normal weapons because they will always excist and be there to fall back upon. We wont loose the ability to equip the old weapons and as long as AR, 2he, 2hb etc etc improves for other professions they will need to make new Bows and Pistols aswell
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Senggum View Post
    seeing as most of the talk in this thread is about TL7 and 90% of you will just skip this post cause it doesn't pertain to you I will keep it short.
    Actually you bring up a good point. Keeping most of the talk about TL7 is a mistake. Yes, most of the people here seem to have already leveled to or near to the endgame, so naturally they are going to be most familiar with this area since its the most recent in their memory. That's fine. But since we're always so preoccupied with the endgame (and that's not a problem unique to the MP forum) we're in danger of overlooking a viewpoint from one of the most important groups within the MP population.

    Namely, the viewpoint of the leveling MP trying the profession out for the first time.

    If the post-rebalance MP does not work for those new, leveling, and lower level (twinked or not) players, we are not going to get any more people playing MPs nomatter how balanced TL7 is. Because people are just not going to enjoy the experience enough to stick it out.

    Ideally, we'd hope for new people trying out the changes post-rebalance with no prior knowledge of the MP profession to give feedback to FC about what works and what doesn't. I'm considering rolling a second MP after the rebalance just to see for myself what difference the changes make to the way that players are introduced to the profession, and what kind of experience they might get while leveling through it.
    :E

  19. #239
    ^^ I gonna do both roll a new mp and transfer my ubah ones to test server to feel the changes.

    And I dunno about the others, but I'm trying to think on lowbies as well. As you said its hard cause I played there as a sloob MP loooooong time ago. What just make me think: There are a way to few MQ nukes on low level. And all of those dont have Unmake/Dominates debuffs attached, diferent of higher MQs.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  20. #240
    Is SoZ still going to be 2hb with the same speed and 1-1 dmg ?


    If it is I cant see the use of it.
    Last edited by Qvasa; Mar 26th, 2011 at 18:53:52.

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