Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #281
    Those are my thoughts too Camar.

    But that does not mean the bow is a bad weapon. It is a very good creation weapon:

    Matter Creation 108 Nano Range 108 Nano Damage Modifier 6 Bow Special Attack 215
    It is a huge boost to our nuke AR, it increases also the nano range and gives a good punch to nanodamage. As a creation you will have too at endgame the following buffs to the pets:

    Poison damage modifier 300 Damage Type Poison AC Heal modifier 25

    Sensory improvement 400 Psychological modifications 400
    So it is a very good creation weapon, better than I expected.

    Now, when Metafly and I where arguing (I got a bid mad) about creations and I was saying I didn't want to go the creation route but have instead better AR for normal weapons it is because I think he and many more expected what I was asking for, normal weapons with better AR. Better AR won't really improve the damage per hit an MP delivers, neither the special hits. It will just give them the ability to choose the weapon that fits more to them and the moment and better perk landing while not making them in any way overpowered. Of course I wouldn't mind a set of "normal creation weapons" including pistols with the benefits of creations and weapons but I just though it was easier to get just more AR in some way or another and as I am pistol I know that if it comes I can't combine a creation pistol with a normal pistol so I prefer to be able to use pistols than having creation pistols.

    I see it is much more easier to combine our debuff role with weapons than with nukes. You can't debuff and nuke at the same time and I've always wanted to do a bit of everything so I rely much more on weapons for PvM and PvP than on creations, even my lowby twinks are bow, melee energy or 1hb instead of the traditional only shield setups.

    DtP is a bad idea because of the low HP setups we have and we will have looking at nano requisites we are getting. huge healing spikes and damage mitigation works best with high HP setups. Casting mirror shield when you have few hit points left is not a good idea at all.

    Debuffer role is death. NSD will be worthless now in PvM and PvP as already explained. Having to choose between nuking or debuffing is a nerf. The other debuffs limited lifespan and immunity are not any better. The damage debuff effect for example is tripled, but enemies get a 66% of the time immunity, so you will have to survive for 20 seconds mobs giving normal hits (we don't use debuffs on regular mobs) and people will save the alpha in PvP (if they mind at all with 11 seconds or less alphas) while you could kept before enemies permadebuffed with weapon MP setups. So we got the same overall debuffing ability but with more difficult control since we don't know easily when immunity is going to end in a particular target.

    We lost nano resistance and immunities.

    There is a promise of better pets but I am not guarantied they will not be humping walls with the eight tentacles

    MPs are buff totems. They don't need to get in teams just wait in borealis giving mochs to anyone that needs it.

  2. #282
    Well, I like those stats for sure. But still, AMEP also gives a boatload of stats without 3/3 attack time.

    But to get constructive, here is what I would do:

    1. Set the recharge of the creation bow to 1.5/1.5.
    2. Use nanoinit for all creation weapons. These are constructs of the mind after all.
    3. Add a sizeable amount of NR, fear and stun resistance to the "One mind" line. This is a waste of DB space so far, and all those fit to the concept. This will make up partly for what we lost with SS.
    4. Get rid of the part time debuff idea for PvM. This is a nice concept for PvP, but not worth it for PvM. 7 seconds is nothing in PvM when you can beat on mobs for 15 mins+. I would do it like this:
    normal NSD: 30 secs duration, 30 secs cooldown in PvM, 15 secs duration, 30 secs cooldown im PvP. ENSD: 10 secs duration, 20 secs cooldown for PvP only. If you want to keep up this design for PvM too, the debuff has to stay for a) a decent time (at least 30 seconds) and b) for the majority of the time (at least 75%). In e timeframe like htis, you could actually warn your teammates NSD will run out and their defenses might have recovered a bit. With a the current amount, this kind of strategic playing is not possible.
    5. The best role we could have in team is nanohealing imo. So add a decent team nanoheal aura that increases max nano as well. You could also add a bit of nanohealing to the heal pet.

    Then it still depends on the pets (defense, AR, HP,...), but I think this would be a step into the right direction.

  3. #283
    Like the idea of adding NR/stun/fear root/snare resist to the One mind line
    Still here

  4. #284
    Lots of complaints that MP's are still lacking a toolset that makes them desireable, something I will partially disagree with, but I fail to see an earnest suggestion to counter that. Making all bosses nuke for 100,000 damage and forcing you to team an MP for every encounter and also forcing FC to keep NSD in pvm at 60 second durations as well as spammable is not a solution.


    MP's either need to:

    Do significant damage on their own to make them desireable as a DD profession.

    Support other profession damage, as in the way traders can buff a team for +15% crit chance, and become desireable in that aspect.

    Allow MP's to act as an off-tank or main tank, either through themselves or their pets.

    Allow MP's to act as the primary healer on the main tank or secondary healer for the team healing.

    Allow teammates to chain cast or use better nanos where they originally could not, thus allowing the team to greatly increase effectiveness.

    Allow MP's to increase damage mitigation of teammates and support the tank in its role.

    Allow MP's to weaken a single target significantly by focusing a toolset on that target.

    Allow an MP to focus on weakening adds, by having moderate debuffs useable on several monsters simultaneously.

    Allow MP's to remove debuffs that mobs/bosses would use to return teammates to optimal effectiveness.

    Allow MP's to use crowd control tools that reduce the dangers of adds.


    I believe I covered the majority of tasks a profession can have in pvm. Many of these are simply unsuited for MPs. Of those that can fit an MP we have to work out what works best in a very simple manner, do we want a single area of focus or do we want to spread out and be average among a several areas.

    Regardless of the manner in which MP's will be designed, we will never have a solely necessary role in pvm. The only way to be balanced is to be among a group of professions that can replace each other or have no focus. Out of 14 professions, being able to team 6 people at once, we need sets of tanks, healers, supporters, debuffers, add management, and damage dealers that can fulfill those given positions. The more roles an MP can participate in, the less effective they will be in each area which I believe is the position MPs are in now. The more an MP focuses on a single role, then the more likely it is that MP's can be teamed but can also be replaced with another profession.


    So we enter into an issue that contradicts what most of us are arguing for. By asking for effective debuffing, improved heal pet, more damage, better team nano support, and a need for our nanoskill buffing, MPs would be in a position similar to what they are currently where they do nothing better than those professions which are more focused and thus it is the other professions obtaining teams over MPs.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryfreman View Post
    Like the idea of adding NR/stun/fear root/snare resist to the One mind line
    I suggested the same thing ages ago, nobody listens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcradle View Post
    Good point. I guess there is nothing stopping you from casting it in combat, just like theres nothing stopping you from dieing while doing so.
    Look, I don't want to be forced to swap gear (be it in fight, before fight, or after fight), just because I didn't go with suggested option (heavy nano skill oriented in this case), to be able to get my end game pet out.

    No other pet profession is going to be forced to do so after rebalance, except us.

    I wouldn't say the word if they left Odin's nano line with nanoskill mods on, plus added bonus from new Mochams.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  6. #286
    @Gates: Advy can also fulfill a lot of roles and will still be able after the balancing. I think advy is wanted in raids and people even whine they will be too wanted after the balancing. I suppose the difference is that advy's are actually pretty good in those roles, while MP's aren't?

    I merely want to talk about NSD and it's lockout though. And repeat my suggestion. For damage debuff, I think the lockout mechanism is ok. Damage comes constantly so a big temporal debuff is similar to a smaller constant debuff. Difference is that healers also need enough hps to keep the target alive without debuff. During the big, short debuff healers can take a breath. Healers can just keep healing you say? Well,t hat's why it is a good thing nanopoints starts to matter again: it means damage debuff also matters.
    I think FC's reasoning till that point is pretty decent. I do believe they made a mistake in assuming you can use the same mechanism for NSD: debuffs/nukes don't come constantly, making the effect of NSD very unreliable. I see a few possible solutions, all of which require modifying encounters to a certain extend:

    - NSD similar as in current doc, but let boss debuffs/nukes come every few seconds
    - NSD similar as in current doc, but let boss debuffs stack (mechanism of NT nr debuffs: you get debuffed more if you already have a debuff running)
    - NSD similar to how it currently is live, but let some debuffs/nukes still come even when NSDed so that the boss is not completely shut down so a bit of a challenge remains.
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

  7. #287
    @Gatester Advs are all rounders that can do alot of thing, and are far better than MPs. And more desireable as well. MPS SHOULD BE LIKE NANOCASTERS ADVS

    SO, I dont wanna amazing sparking DPS that will od Shades. Our current DD is ok. If someone call it mediocre is cause you didnt pushed enough.

    I want our debuffs be more effective in pvm, not less.

    Why our DD debuffs came with 10s duration and 20s immunite while Crat Init debuff came with 60s duration 5s cooldown and no immunite?

    Why our NSD have such immunity system in pvm, make then simple useless in ANY pvm constest?

    Why we completely lost Unmakes/Dominates while traders kept their Deprive?

    Why Creation Weapons don't check NR as defence and NanoCInit as speed? They are notum made weapons!


    You FC are making MPs far more gimp in tl7. And I wanna ask: WHY?!
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  8. #288
    Yup I'd have to agree.

    As things stand, the debuff contribution has worsened and not improved... but right now, you'll never see a team/raid leader calling for an MP as a necessity - except on NSD susceptible mobs to an extent - which has now been nerfed fairly hard, to the point of making the MP contribution 'icing on the cake' rather than necessary. If the debuffs now don't really work as a good team contribution... they're certainly not going to work after this document.

    On healing, we've perhaps moved up a bit on the scale, but are still a good chunk behind MAs/Advies in heal-mode.

    On CC we've improved but won't have enough control to make us really good. It's the best improvement - but probably not enough. We'll have to see how well it actually works in practice.

    But on DPS we'll be massively improved. In fact, I'd say that DPS will now be our contribution. Maybe we'll want to be teamed with a Trader to give our best... but it looks likely that DPS will be the place for us... which I personally find deeply disappointing.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  9. #289
    Xtremtech, I'm curious where you see massive DPS improvment? I'd be a bit surprised to see a dual shen stick MP today for instanced getting OD'd by too much by any MP after this, unless our pets are going to have markedly higher DPS. Creation MPs will have roughly an extra 50k nuke DPM, but less weapon damage than the Aggressive Staff now. Given how far we fall behind real DD professions that's not going to bring us close to the top tier. It looks to me like we'll be quite good soloers (both PvP and PvM), but our primary team contribution will hopefully be team nano-regeneration - because if its DPS we'll have the same team desirability problems we do now.

  10. #290
    U can keep ur shen sticks and still use the Alpha/Mind/Finish nukes, just not the Glacial's (base nukes). Those are the only ones i saw with a Cyberdeck 7 tag plus ofcourse the pet buffs.

    The only gain from creation weapons will be modifiers and base nukes (less nano cost) and AR. That in itself is good, but for damage one would get the Xan of Chaos or Tigress if u wanna hit off that AS for low hp mobs in combination with the non cyberdeck 7 reliant nukes.

    Seeing as perks will only check NR now, also perks should land on target Mobs like Beast.

    The more i think about those debuffs tho, the less i like it. Gatester mentioned it right that we would need to focus on that debuff, and that can be together with the damage in document because of the recharge that is gone. So just cast debuff and a second later u cast ur nuke.
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Edta View Post
    For damage debuff, I think the lockout mechanism is ok. Damage comes constantly so a big temporal debuff is similar to a smaller constant debuff. Difference is that healers also need enough hps to keep the target alive without debuff. During the big, short debuff healers can take a breath. Healers can just keep healing you say? Well,t hat's why it is a good thing nanopoints starts to matter again: it means damage debuff also matters.
    When you solo a quest mob that hit for 8000 each two seconds (I can point some), you can debuff it to hit 5500. Your damage reduction of our great new defenses will leave it in 4125 (and 5500 to our pets) Thats it for the first 10 seconds, you might survive it, but the next 20 seconds this same quest mob will hit you for 6000 and you will be probably death in the next 2-4 seconds.
    Reflects, init debuffs... many things work much better than this debuffs in PvM, no reason to have an MP in the team for them.

    I think FC's reasoning till that point is pretty decent. I do believe they made a mistake in assuming you can use the same mechanism for NSD: debuffs/nukes don't come constantly, making the effect of NSD very unreliable. I see a few possible solutions, all of which require modifying encounters to a certain extend:

    - NSD similar as in current doc, but let boss debuffs/nukes come every few seconds
    - NSD similar as in current doc, but let boss debuffs stack (mechanism of NT nr debuffs: you get debuffed more if you already have a debuff running)
    - NSD similar to how it currently is live, but let some debuffs/nukes still come even when NSDed so that the boss is not completely shut down so a bit of a challenge remains.
    The only place where NSD is important is when the nuke is so huge to the target level that it can wipe half the raid (like beast hitting 13000 damage nukes). If you can't prevent this you are worthless in the team. If the nukes are not high enough healing will be more important than you. In non nuking situations if the mob can be killed or calmed like pinks in pande them it will be done nobody cares about your NSD much less if it only lasts 30 seconds or less. Nobody will care about a non-reliable tool and after the first wipe in the raids MPs are wanted now nobody will want them ever anymore it will just only give MPs more bad reputation as a worthless profession.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    When you solo a quest mob that hit for 8000 each two seconds (I can point some), you can debuff it to hit 5500. Your damage reduction of our great new defenses will leave it in 4125 (and 5500 to our pets) Thats it for the first 10 seconds, you might survive it, but the next 20 seconds this same quest mob will hit you for 6000 and you will be probably death in the next 2-4 seconds.
    Reflects, init debuffs... many things work much better than this debuffs in PvM, no reason to have an MP in the team for them.
    Yeah, I wasn't talking about solo. My goal is merely to point out that for mass pvm, this idea isn't really wrong (not saying that it is a good idea), but using the same mechanism for NSD is wrong since debuffs/nukes work different then damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    The only place where NSD is important is when the nuke is so huge to the target level that it can wipe half the raid (like beast hitting 13000 damage nukes). If you can't prevent this you are worthless in the team. If the nukes are not high enough healing will be more important than you. In non nuking situations if the mob can be killed or calmed like pinks in pande them it will be done nobody cares about your NSD much less if it only lasts 30 seconds or less. Nobody will care about a non-reliable tool and after the first wipe in the raids MPs are wanted now nobody will want them ever anymore it will just only give MPs more bad reputation as a worthless profession.
    You are right, but the problem is that apparently they don't WANT MP debuffs to be needed for some reason. Healing and DD are apparently allowed to be needed, and I guess crat debuffs too...? Ideally crat, MP and trader debuffs would be all similar in power and at least 1 is needed.

    I do want to point out though that simply healing away all damage will become harder. If a boss AoE nukes a few times in a row for 8k damage, docs might be able to heal everybody, so that they live, but then the doc would be without nano and unable to heal the tank. A second doc would solve this problem, or an MP: NSD and nanodamage debuffs should reduce the damage to team enough so that about 2 team heals instead of 4 are needed + heal pet heals tank --> 1 doc should have enough nano to keep tank alive. IF (!) it's done right, it could be possible to make an MP not necessary, yet worthy (in the scenario I gave, MP might have the same worth as a 2nd doc). Especially if you also look at stuns and debuffs from bosses, I can think of tons of scenario's where MP does matter if NSD can be reliably used.

    There is 1 constant though: with the immunity system, the doc should be able to keep the team/tank alive without the debuffs. This means that docs running out of nano MUST happen for MP debuffs to be useful.

    Now for MPs being as useful as crats, the speed of nano-running out on the doc ins't enough: it is much more stressy to switch between periods of heavy healing and light healing then it is to constantly do mediocre healing, so crats will still be favored.
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

  13. #293
    I guess that we all agree that the debuffs in the document are less than great then
    Metafly7 220/30/70 "E"

    Advfly7 170/19/42 "E"


    Proud member of ~Spirit~ Rubi-Ka Atlantean

    Anarchy proves this quote wrong: "War would end if the dead could return." ~ Stanley Baldwin

  14. #294
    I was talking about both thing with damage debuffs, partial debuffs are not reliable and not wanted and MPs have the worst duration situation here.

    With NSD it is the same, you only make the boss hit with his nuke some seconds later so you make it less predictable for the raid. A boss mob is going to be hitting hard anyway so there is no healing break you have to keep healing anyway. The idea that docs get out of nano and they need a break is not computable sorry. That happened in the old days with docs and enfos and it was solved with nano stims. It is easier now when I hit area healing perks and sit. Only froobs docs will have problems healing here.

  15. #295
    Justin,

    My thought was more general and looking ahead to the end of this process, rather than specifically about this document. And I was referring to Role rather than contribution.

    My feeling is that the combination of these nano changes, perk changes, perk special changes, item and armour changes, other profession's changes etc will leave MPs overall, with substantially more DPS than at present and that the DPS role will be the one that MPs will fill.

    My point was more that I'm unhappy that MPs will find themselves in a primarily DPS role - with no flexibility of role. That said, MP contribution is a somewhat different question to the Role that is usually filled.

    MP healing will in fact also be substantially more powerful and could quite easily make a real difference to teams where a secondary healer or even a secondary tank is involved. The MP is unlikely to be strong enough to entirely fill the healing role... but may well contribute substantially with that healing.

    There's potential for MPs to contribute much better on the crowd control front too - but we have to see how well the AoE Mez pet actually delivers before we can really say that.

    If you look back to the period straight after SL was released, MPs were actively sought after because they had strong DPS, their heals were comparitively strong and their Mez Pet worked in SL. This combination can work to make MPs desirable in teams.

    9-12 months after SL's release, the MP DPS had in fact remained pretty strong in PvM but their comparitive heal level dropped considerably and the availability of SL calms became a great deal wider and more reliable than the mez pet... and that desirability in teams dropped considerably.

    One other thing that contributed to the MPs' desirability in the period after SL release, was that the MP had a decent nano heal - and at that time the SL nanos were costly. There is still potential for the MP team nano heals to contribute more post-rebalance too... and I still hold out hope for a Nano Heal utility pet effect, given Kintaii's post above.

    I also still hold out hope that he damage debuffs may be improved in this feedback cycle and that the Creation Weapon speed may be adjusted, since Kintaii mentioned that this is still under consideration.

    Does that explain better what I meant?

    It's now clear that the MP will fill a DPS slot in the Trinity roles or a team... which I think is a disappointment. Overall contribution will be a combination of substantially improved DPS, substantially improved healing and possibly the AoE mez. And the damage debuffs may yet have a stronger contribution to make...

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    Why our DD debuffs came with 10s duration and 20s immunite while Crat Init debuff came with 60s duration 5s cooldown and no immunite?
    You do realize that crat init debuffs have been beat into a bloody pulp by FCs nerfbat, right? We can no longer provide any benefits in that regard if there is a doctor present, which somewhat narrows down our role as debuffer. As in, we no longer are one in virtually every team situtation.

    While I don't really mind this fact, we do after all bring plenty to a team in the form of auras, damage, mezzes and such, you might want to think twice before complaining about your debuffs using crat debuffs as the 'superior' example.

    That being said, I actually think your damage debuff is looking rather nice. For 50%* of the time, you can bring down a mob's damage by a huge chunk.

    Your entire nano doc looks rather nice, actually. We're already discussing on how we crats should steal of some your toys and add them to our toolset.


    *In the pencil-paper world where perfect timing exists.

  17. #297
    30% of the time. The debuff itself builds in immunity to the debuffs... and then at the end of the debuff, an immunity nano is cast for a further 20s of immunity.

    So overall, you can get 10s of debuff followed by 20s of immunity = 1/3rd of the time.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    While I don't really mind this fact, we do after all bring plenty to a team in the form of auras, damage, mezzes and such, you might want to think twice before complaining about your debuffs using crat debuffs as the 'superior' example.
    I believe he was referring to duration only.

    That being said, I actually think your damage debuff is looking rather nice. For 50%* of the time, you can bring down a mob's damage by a huge chunk.
    I think it's crap and slap in a face. Oh, and it's 30% of the time.

    Imagine how "effective" it will be once the mob is actually init debuffed first (it's impossible to calculate on the fly when to cast this nano to get the most of it - in the end, its effect will be hardly noticeable, which brings us back to the old story about "questionable MP desirability in teams"). Also, nano cost is HUGE!

    And yeah, it will be definitely hard to track "immunity" part of the nano in targets NCU (when it's flooded with all the other debuffs), to actually save ourselves of wasting huge amount of nanopool just to get "target resisted", once you cast this for the second time, if the "immunity" is still running.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    I believe he was referring to duration only.



    I think it's crap and slap in a face. Oh, and it's 30% of the time.

    Imagine how "effective" it will be once the mob is actually init debuffed first (it's impossible to calculate on the fly when to cast this nano to get the most of it - in the end, its effect will be hardly noticeable, which brings us back to the old story about "questionable MP desirability in teams"). Also, nano cost is HUGE!

    And yeah, it will be definitely hard to track "immunity" part of the nano in targets NCU (when it's flooded with all the other debuffs), to actually save ourselves of wasting huge amount of nanopool just to get "target resisted", once you cast this for the second time, if the "immunity" is still running.
    Seriously, what init debuffs apart of doc procs, -250 crat debuff(lol) and -1k off shade(not sure if it works on bosses) are you talking about?
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  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Stompbox View Post
    Seriously, what init debuffs apart of doc procs, -250 crat debuff(lol) and -1k off shade(not sure if it works on bosses) are you talking about?
    All those useful ones you just counted.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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