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Thread: how 1vs1 can be used to find issues in pvp (take2)

  1. #1

    how 1vs1 can be used to find issues in pvp (take2)

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod
    so you agree that you're unable to properly explain how 1vs1 can be used to find issues in pvp. good to hear.
    Given that nearly every post I made was an example of 1vs1 being used to find issues in PVP, I really expected more from you. But anyway, the key posts that seem to have gotten lost in the lockage:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys
    6-person team works because the others aren't in a team. When both 6-person vs 6-person are on an equal footing, then two things happen very fast - I have led this sort of thing long before you called yourself a PVP MP:

    1) All supports get called first
    2) They die
    3) Combat profs and whichever supports still alive then turn on each other and enjoy PVP while we rezz at reclaim

    When I'm a caller in small PVP, I always target support profs first because it's so much easier to kill them and consequently it's better to get rid of them first before worrying about AMS'd soldier or coon/limbered adv or SL ess'd enf where you need numbers to wear them down. If you are 6 vs 6, and you know the soldier or enf or adv can tank all 6 people's alpha, calling him first is is suicide because it allows them to pick off your support profs. So your theory only works in an imbalanced situation of teamed and coordinated vs bunch of noobs unteamed, it has never worked in balanced ones with experienced PVPers before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys
    And nowhere do I ask for balance. I identify a clear and obvious problem, recommend a solution, and suggest it will move us towards a better balance. Not saying "waah some profs have it better than me waah" because I can live with that. But if you clicked the link I posted, you'll see the priorities are really around GTH, CB, RI, NSD-proc. Since this is the MP forum, I also raise melee alpha as one of our problems but I'm sorely disappointed to hear a professional saying we should kite to survive (give us kiting tools like runspeed and snares plz?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys
    MP static def for non-shield builds in full 300 symbs/gear/etc: 2.8k. 2.9-3k with awesome towers. If you know what that implies, you wouldn't talk about "not doing too badly" or not being SS reliant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Corily
    We are the ONLY profession that is open for an alpha without any possibility to survive it.
    Note that Ebag's response to this can be summed up as "well some profs if they screw up will die too" and doesn't address the fundamental fact that we have insufficient options to begin with. Note also that the entire exchange that ensued was a good example of how examining one-on-one situations could inform ways to improve group balance. Again, shadowgod seems to have forgotten to read that part of the thread while trying to post his retort.

    You think if people gangbang an agent, CH and UBT are going to save him? Of course not, but it's very good one-on-one. That's why so many agents kite all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys
    The GTH resist is nice, but really, one-on-one MP vs trader is already a fair fight given one stupid OP nano vs one stupid OP proc. xD
    Anyone who's ever PVP'd traders before knows that this is one of the most hilariously luck-based results ever (though the odds are that the MP will win). A nice example of one-on-one being used to point out an issue in pvp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys
    It might be to do that (1) PVM is in a fine state, hell PVM is too easy as is (2) FC aren't adding significant content sub-tl7 and (3) PVP is where balance problems exist. In short, if the rest arent working or FC priorities, it's PVP that we talk about. And we all know the game now is 220-heavy and that's where the majority of attention is going, with new content there every patch which always has implications for PVP balance while consistently just making PVM easier.
    The simple fact is that 1-on-1 has always been the basis from which to start making changes for PVP. How else do you examine a profession's toolset to make changes? Look at stuff like Bullseye, which was fine and balanced in a 1-on-1 situation but exponentially OP in mass PVP.

    In summary:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys
    I mean seriously, you guys aren't coming up with any ideas, and when I suggest we should focus on where our strengths are, fix our weaknesses, etc., you make all kinds of childish mischaracterisations and try to twist whatever I'm saying into "HAI LETS B AGENTZ WIF PETS". LE made it clear that Bow was going to be one direction to go in. But now our professionals are saying they hate the Tigress and want us to go back to the drawing board and start all over again?
    What exactly do you contribute to the professionals programme in terms of tl7 issues, SG?

    I still don't get what you meant about me being an engy being a MP or whatever (hm was that a personal attack?).

    I'm still yet to see Ebag show what nanos makes a MP so dangerous without actually killing anything.

    I'm still yet to see either of you explain how our lack of alpha-protection in 1-on-1 is not exponentially worse in group pvp, the thing you guys claim is the only thing FC are interested in fixing (short of kiting, not being called, or other lamer ways of exploiting broken pvp mechanics). If you refuse to answer any other point, answer this one.

    I'm still yet to see either of you show what area you'd like to see MPs go in the future. At tl7.

    Which reminds me, you never did answer the question, SG: What tl7 experience do you have of live server issues such as towers, tara and other forms of group tl7 pvp? What about tl7 solo pvp experience?

    I'd now like to ask you to demonstrate how post-LE changes in current PVP balance were not in fact, made based on feedback from situations relating to one-on-one. Hell we just found out that test server can barely get BS going, gawd knows how they ever test stuff there.

    Only clear sign I'm getting from our professionals is that they want to cling to every red herring in an attempt to duck the real issues that they have no answer to, nor qualification/experience to speak about, hence why they frustrate the people who actually play their 220 MPs regularly and are failing in their task as professionals.

    Edit: Oh yes, I forgot the most obvious example is that you won't realise how proc/kite reliant our "good" defenses are until you do 1-on-1. Which I pointed out way at the beginning... as well as in a thread months ago about our def. So if you want to know why I'm frustrated with professionals who either willfully ignore or just unable to understand what others are saying while twisting people's words, there you have it...

    Is this better Ebag? All whatever can be construed as vaguely mocking removed.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  2. #2
    Better...mostly.


    I'm not going to take the time to reply to this tonight (or rather this morning since it's rather early).

    I may reply back tomorrow or the next day, depending on how my schedule looks. But for tonight, I'm going to bed. Worked 11 hours yesterday and 15 hours today, so I am disinclined to reply until I have more time to spend doing so.

  3. #3
    While you say that "The simple fact is that 1-on-1 has always been the basis from which to start making changes for PVP", you're rather missing one major thing: That's not how FC seems to look at it.

    FC have in the last year or so made a series of changes to the PvP game that clearly shows that they want a team based approach to PvP to be viable, as well as a 1-Vs-1 approach. The changes to the title system, addition of a series of things that can enable support professions to be more survivable in a support role to a team, the design of BS etc etc... all are clearly focussed from a design perspective on improving the viability of team based PvP.

    That's not to say that they don't also want to improve 1-Vs-1 PvP... it's just saying that they seem to want to improve team PvP as well.

    AO over the years, has been primarily designed around PvM not PvP - and the tools that professions get are indeed balanced with PvM teams in mind. This has in the past been one of the key root issues of PvP - that several professions are at a disadvantage in PvP because their toolsets are designed primarily around team PvM. By trying to promote more team viability in PvP, FC are trying to improve the overall utility, diversity and interest of PvP.

    For the MP the addition of SS and the shield in particular, enable an MP to act in a more supporting role in a team - without being the easy squishy target. NT shields, Crat evade boosts etc are also a part of that process. They also gain some boosts to survivability through other things offered by the team (evade buffs, blocker buffs, heals from team-mates etc).

    Trying to make team based PvP a viable option doesn't exclude 1-Vs-1 MP PvP from being improved though. Both can be enhanced. Why shouldn't team PvP be improved too - alongside 1-Vs-1 PvP? Have you got something against that in principle? Let's be clear, a lot of the changes made that might promote more team based PvP will also benefit 1-Vs-1 PvP. It's not that designing for one completely negates design for the other.

    Your ideas are in fact represented by the professionals to FC. Other people's ideas may be represented too. Some ideas of the Professionals themselves will also be represented. It's not the Professionals that choose direction in the end - it's FC... and they do that based on feedback from discussions in the public forums, in patch forums, in game suggestions, in professionals forums, on test, from game data etc etc etc.

    You don't need to convert everyone to your own point of view in order to have your view represented. What you do however need, is to present yourself as somebody who makes reasonable arguments that are not personally directed... and since professionals and FC community bods and Devs are only human... you're more likely to be listened to if you make pleasant posts that focus on your own point of view, rather than constantly trying to shoot somebody else's point of view down.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    The changes to the title system, addition of a series of things that can enable support professions to be more survivable in a support role to a team...
    Exactly something I agree with and was pointing out was important to make PVP enjoyable for all players. Yet Ebag's earlier response to this was that this was their deserved lot in PVP, that they should be squishy in response to me pointing out we still need alpha protection against top players in our top gear.
    For the MP the addition of SS and the shield in particular, enable an MP to act in a more supporting role in a team - without being the easy squishy target.
    But the current standing is: (1) SS doesn't do anything to stop a top melee player's alpha, unless you have a proc running and (2) Shield of Zset MP is inconsequential in actual PVP. They are good for ninjacapping (this isn't PVP btw!) but none of our debuffs hurt players sufficiently or against enough profs (lol shades and keepers and soldiers and ...) that actually makes it worthwhile. Except in duels. Which is that dreaded 1-on-1, ironically.
    Trying to make team based PvP a viable option doesn't exclude 1-Vs-1 MP PvP from being improved though. Both can be enhanced. Why shouldn't team PvP be improved too - alongside 1-Vs-1 PvP? Have you got something against that in principle? Let's be clear, a lot of the changes made that might promote more team based PvP will also benefit 1-Vs-1 PvP. It's not that designing for one completely negates design for the other.
    Of course not, but what is good for 1-on-1 will be good for team pvp, the only problem is it's much harder to balance. As I said, if our profs don't think the lack of alpha protection 1-on-1 isn't ten times worse in group pvp, then they fundamentally don't understand PVP gameplay at all. Everything I have said can apply to a group situation - the reason I wanted to exclude it from the comparison is because it also includes fighting people in gimpier setup or lower levels than the top players. This is something we shouldn't factor in when considering prof balance.

    But if we packed a bunch of 220/30/70 professions all in top gear onto BS in equal numbers, MPs would be very dead, unable to proc hardly anything but getting alpha'd to pieces (more so if they are good enough to actually pose a threat). The use of one-on-one explains this situation without complication, but people jumped on it because they didn't want to deal with the real situation - that the MP defense hole is currently too big.
    <snip preaching>
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  5. #5
    Ebag's earlier response to this was that this was their deserved lot in PVP, that they should be squishy in response to me pointing out we still need alpha protection against top players in our top gear.
    My impression of his point was more that he thought that if you'd gone the offensive route of aiming for high damage as a kill MP, then you should be more squishy than somebody who had gone a purely defensive route in order to provide a support role to teams for example. Essentially this is your viewpoint too - in that you want high offense to be squishy and high defence to have no teeth (or at least that's what you said elsewhere)

    but none of our debuffs hurt players sufficiently or against enough profs (lol shades and keepers and soldiers and ...) that actually makes it worthwhile.
    Which would be a good reason to improve debuffs or add new ones. Somebody recently told me that PvP is just purely about Off Vs Def... but if you improve debuffs, then the squishy but defended shield MP acting in teams as a support specialist becomes a more valid playstyle.

    Note that this would not really be a valid 1-Vs-1 playstyle as there'd be no (or not enough) damage available. It is also quite possible to design for a support oriented PvP MP, which I think is the point that Ebag and SG would like to make. We may not be quite there yet... but things have certainly moved greatly in that direction in recent times.

    Both 1-Vs-1 and team PvP should be possible. There'll be different players looking for different approaches who will choose different directions. There are a great many different viewpoints on these things. I know a crat who enjoys BS purely because she can stand around rooting/snaring stuff. She doesn't get involved in killing much at all... just likes having her cratty role for her side on BS. I know MPs who enjoy ninja debuffing to help their side/team.

    It's clear that PvP is presently mostly populated with people who just want titles at all costs and want to kill, kill, kill. But there are other players in this game who have different viewpoints to those players - who for years have been put off PvP because it was so focussed on one thing. That has changed significantly in the last year or so and is beginning to bring different people with different approaches into PvP.

    That should be something that is encouraged, rather than discouraged by forcing the focus back to being purely one of kill, kill, kill. There are in fact other options available... they may be difficult to achieve in some ways but they are worthwhile approaches to strive for, alongside the more common styles presently ruling PvP.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Dec 18th, 2008 at 10:51:59.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    My impression of his point was more that he thought that if you'd gone the offensive route of aiming for high damage as a kill MP, then you should be more squishy than somebody who had gone a purely defensive route in order to provide a support role to teams for example. Essentially this is your viewpoint too - in that you want high offense to be squishy and high defence to have no teeth (or at least that's what you said elsewhere)
    How is one AS every 11 seconds high offense? The only difference between us and all the other AS-using support profs is our tigress caps more easily, while theirs is a bit more of a gamble. I hardly call that a "kill" MP.
    Which would be a good reason to improve debuffs or add new ones. Somebody recently told me that PvP is just purely about Off Vs Def... but if you improve debuffs, then the squishy but defended shield MP acting in teams as a support specialist becomes a more valid playstyle.
    Well that's been suggested with composite dominates or changing SS to a lockout. But apparently the SS option is OP.
    Both 1-Vs-1 and team PvP should be possible. There'll be different players looking for different approaches who will choose different directions. There are a great many different viewpoints on these things. I know a crat who enjoys BS purely because she can stand around rooting/snaring stuff. She doesn't get involved in killing much at all... just likes having her cratty role for her side on BS. I know MPs who enjoy ninja debuffing to help their side/team.
    Yes, I've met people like this, who root and run, leaving the players stuck in their position while they slowly stimstimstimstim out of a 15 minute root. In case people think this is good for PVP, it's not: it may be fun for one person, but it's not fun for the other (this is the same principle with respect to kiting). In fact, it's highly, highly annoying, if you happen to run out of FMs and you can't actually do what you came to BS to do. If you tried that out in any pure PVP games where people could be stuck in one spot for minutes, you'd find no one actually playing the game very quickly.

    Luckily, free movements acknowledge the inapplicability of certain aspects of PVM gameplay that may seem fun to the player but are hideously terrible for a good PVP environment.
    It's clear that PvP is presently mostly populated with people who just want titles at all costs and want to kill, kill, kill. But there are other players in this game who have different viewpoints to those players - who for years have been put off PvP because it was so focussed on one thing. That has changed significantly in the last year or so and is beginning to bring different people with different approaches into PvP.
    I'd like to see you make a game like this in which people have the ability to just root and leave people behind (or chainstun them maybe?) and see how badly it tanks. There's no penalty for dying other than being out of action on BS anymore. Dying is even preferable to actually being rooted for 15 minutes or being GTH'd out of a fight, or losing more than one pet. Just because it's fun for one player to utterly immobilise another, doesn't make it a good thing for PVP.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  7. #7
    Long post is long.

    Short version: In team PvP as FC currently seems to aiming for, so called 'support' profs die, the 'combat' profs PvP.

    I don't team on BS because it does nothing for me. Quite the opposite, in fact.
    The only possible outcome is that everyone jumps on me the second they see me. My auras benefit everyone but me, making me, an already squishy profession, more squishier in comparison to y team.

    If the opposite side has a crat as well, everyone and their little sister can alpha me.

    Currently, teaming is a disadvantage to some professions.

    As long as FC doesn't get that and goes along their route of 'Oh, let's give enforcers another tool to kill people', PvP will become a mockery.

    And yes, 1on1 is a great tool to point out the huge flaws in FC's view on PvP balance.

    Enforcers will soon become a profession that has great damage mitigation, is very hard to kill, has good healing, nigh imune to all forms of CC, insane alpha, the best, most reliable CC in the game and has more mobility than anyone bar fixers.
    Last edited by crattey; Dec 18th, 2008 at 16:42:23.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    How is one AS every 11 seconds high offense? The only difference between us and all the other AS-using support profs is our tigress caps more easily, while theirs is a bit more of a gamble. I hardly call that a "kill" MP.
    The fact that Tigress caps more easily and recharges so quickly is a huge complaint from other professions (including Agents). They have a harder time in some respects than MP's do with AS.

    Currently, we have arguably the best (or at least most reliable) AS in BS. That's coming from agents who have played both profs. I haven't played an agent seriously (at least not past lowbie levels), so I am just going off what folks who have played only agent or both agent and MP are telling me.

    And funny how you claim that in PvM AS is the reason that a Tigress MP will OD all other setups, but in PvP suddenly AS isn't that good. Which is it, is AS a huge source of damage or not?



    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Yes, I've met people like this, who root and run, leaving the players stuck in their position while they slowly stimstimstimstim out of a 15 minute root. In case people think this is good for PVP, it's not: it may be fun for one person, but it's not fun for the other (this is the same principle with respect to kiting). In fact, it's highly, highly annoying, if you happen to run out of FMs and you can't actually do what you came to BS to do. If you tried that out in any pure PVP games where people could be stuck in one spot for minutes, you'd find no one actually playing the game very quickly.

    Luckily, free movements acknowledge the inapplicability of certain aspects of PVM gameplay that may seem fun to the player but are hideously terrible for a good PVP environment.

    I'd like to see you make a game like this in which people have the ability to just root and leave people behind (or chainstun them maybe?) and see how badly it tanks. There's no penalty for dying other than being out of action on BS anymore. Dying is even preferable to actually being rooted for 15 minutes or being GTH'd out of a fight, or losing more than one pet. Just because it's fun for one player to utterly immobilise another, doesn't make it a good thing for PVP.
    This is an excellent summation of a "traditional" AO PvPer's point of view. I don't think I could have worded it better or more eloquently.

    It also highlights exactly what I'm saying is the problem with PvP.

    I never enjoyed PvP before the changes that FC made post LE. Part of that was due to the state of MP PvP at the time, but the larger part was simply the way that PvP worked. PvP revolved solely around how many kills you had.

    There's no stratagy to that, only being a particular setup and hitting a set of keys in the correct order. If I wanted to do that, I'd go play Counter-Strike or another FPS.

    Now FC is (slowly) changing that. With the introduction of the LE PvP nanos, and more and better support for support professions in the roles that they were originally designed for, there's actually a purpose beyond running around and spamming specials at everything in sight.

    You claim that PvP isn't fun anymore because support professions can actually utilize their toolset and effect you. For years PvP wasn't fun to anyone who didn't want to run around and mindlessly kill didn't enjoy PvP. Now that PvP is becoming more balanced, and allowing people who enjoy using their toolset (and not ignoring 95% of it), you are complaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Just because it's fun for one player to utterly immobilise another, doesn't make it a good thing for PVP.
    Just because it's fun for one player to enjoy spamming AS, doesn't make it a good thing for PvP.



    Traditionally the numbers of people who have PvP have been very small compared to the numbers of people who PvM. Since LE (and BS and other changes) the numbers of players who PvP have skyrocketed (which has also been a complaint I've heard from traditional PvP players...). The fact remains that PvP is simply more enjoyable to many players (especially support professions) because they can do it without doing an extremely specific setup and using AS. Why should someone who wants to PvP be forced to junk their entire setup, use a setup that is pretty much the opposite of what they should be using, ignore the majority (or even all) of their toolset, and play in a very specific manner (that's the opposite of the way they should be playing)?



    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    I don't team on BS because it does nothing for me. Quite the opposite, in fact.
    The only possible outcome is that everyone jumps on me the second they see me. My auras benefit everyone but me, making me, an already squishy profession, more squishier in comparison to y team.

    If the opposite side has a crat as well, everyone and their little sister can alpha me.

    Currently, teaming is a disadvantage to some professions.
    Boy, you guys are just making all my points for me.


    I don't get this whole "teaming gives me nothing". It's an entirely one side way of looking at it.

    This is the logic used:

    When I team with people I give them buffs/aura.
    My buff/aura does not give me anything extra when I team with people.
    Therefore, I gain nothing by teaming with people.


    It completely ignores the fact that nearly every profession thinks the exact same thing.

    Let me give a very very very very simplistic example.

    Last BS I did (just a few days ago, when I wasn't working 15 hours days, narf) I was teamed with a doc who I know. There was a particular MA on BS who could kill the doc if he spent enough time working on him (took forever, but he'd eventually do it). Said doc couldn't kill him, so his choices were A) Die, B) run away, or C) Leave BS. Since the MA was hunting him out, B) wasn't such a valid choice, A) just sucks, and that left C), which is a pretty crappy choice.

    The dynamics changed when you introduced a new variable (namely myself). Between my debuffs and extra damage, the MA could no longer kill the Doc, and instead we started killing him. The doc no longer had to kite, and could stand his ground. (Hmm, guess debuffs can help reduce kiting.)

    Now, many people would have looked at this situation and said (using the logic above) "Hmm, I'm giving the doc help by debuffing the MA and doing some damage, but that doesn't help me."

    That completely ignores the fact that when the MA realized he couldn't kill the doc, he switched to me. And guess who kept me alive so I didn't have to kite? (Hmmm, guess support from heals can help reduce kiting.)

    The MA could kill either one of us on our own, fairly easily (tedious and would take a while in either case, but the outcome was pretty well determined). Together we could easily kill the MA.


    The whole thing is a skewed perspective. It's like engies with their spec blockers. They were happy when the had 7 personal spec blockers, but were pissed when they got team spec blockers because "it didn't help them at all". And it's true that there is no direct help there....except that it helps keep your team alive, and they can help keep you alive.



    Again, a very simplistic example:

    If an engie teams with a doc, most people are going to (and should) target the doc first. If the engie refuses to run their team spec blockers (and some do), then that doc will almost for sure die if they are up against a couple of DD Profs (say soldie and enfo, or keeper and MA, or take your pick of the various combinations). Docs are very difficult to kill 1v1, but in a 2v1 situation (or even a 2v1v1 stituation) the doc will go down.

    So in the above case we have the doc go down, then the engie goes down.

    Now lets say that the engie runs spec blockers. 7 blockers will provide up to 210% damage protection every 60 seconds (30% hits * 7). With that sort of damage reduction, a doc could easily keep up with incoming damage.

    And of course that ignores the other bonuses that an engie would give. Such as 24% reflects. Such as blinds and snares. Such as damage done from himself and pets which will distract the two opposing players.

    So now in our (very very simple) example, the doc has gone from "guaranteed to be killed" to "unable to be killed". So our two attackers choose to switch to the engie.

    Now if the doc had the same mentality as many PvPers, then him healing the engie doesn't benefit him at all, right? So he refuses to heal. (And unfortunatly that happens all the time in BS.)

    So the engie, while a tough nut to crack in his own right (blockers + reflects + coon) will eventually go down. And that strips the docs blockers and reflects. Which mean that we're back to square one, and the doc is again vunlnerable to being killed.


    Teaming with people and helping them may never benefit you directly. But as they say (and I illustrated in the admittedly simplistic examples above), "karma's a bitch". If you don't help people on BS, they won't help you (and unfortunately in today's PvP even if you do help them, they still won't help you) . If you don't help keep them alive, they won't help keep you alive.

    Time and time and time again I've watched just a handful of people working as a team utterly dominate BS (on both sides of the equation). I've seen situations where clams were absolutely destroying omni (talking about 5 to 1 point ratios here), and with essentially the same sides Omni starts teaming up and starts winning BS. 1v1 Omni had no chance of winning. Working as a team, they are able to overcome an opponent who is vastly more powerful than they are individually, but does not work together.



    You can look and see exactly this in real life. The Roman army (especially when it first started) was a poorly equipped and considered poorly trained, but destroyed those they faced by working together. Or when the English equipped peasants with some sticks and leather armor, and defeated the French knights who had years of training (their whole life, often 20-30 years) and the cost of outfitting one knight could field a whole army of the poorly armed/trained peasants.

    Anyone who's a military history buff knows that when one side works together, they will defeat the side who does not. The same holds just as true in PvP in AO as it does on a RL battlefield. And the vast majority of AO (PvP) players still hold to the mentality that one person working solo is somehow better than 6 people (or more) working together.

  9. #9
    /delete plx

    Too much text to read.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    ... Great post ...
    Each and every PvP'er in AO should be forced to read that post, before being allowed to ever engage in PvP again... Good read indeed.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    Each and every PvP'er in AO should be forced to read that post, before being allowed to ever engage in PvP again... Good read indeed.
    But he's so horribly wrong.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    Each and every PvP'er in AO should be forced to read that post, before being allowed to ever engage in PvP again... Good read indeed.
    Unfortunately most people would read it, say how wrong I am, and then continue on without contributing anything of value what-so-ever. (Wait, that sounds su****iously familiar......)

    I predicted a long long long time ago (long before LE, probably 3 years ago at least) that PvP would change drastically when people figured out that working together is vastly more powerful than working separately. I thought it'd happen around LE, as the indications were present that FC was pushing hard for team based PvP. I had figured that people would see the new stuff, be forced to team together, and the lightbulb would click on when they realized how much superior it was.

    I still think that will happen...but I think think my prediction was premature. FC is going to be pushing more team based PvP items/nanos/etc, and moving away form 1v1 PvP. That's been a clear trend for a long time, and from the indications that I see, I believe that trend will continue (no doubt much to the dismay and complaints of the traditional PvPers).

    I would like to see 6 people on a server do some practicing together for PvP, and figure out how the whole team thing works, then challenge some of the naysayers who believe that working separately (and unteamed) is more effective than working together. Personally I believe that if you had a decently setup team of 6 that knew how to work together, they could defeat up to twice their number of people working solo. I certainly believe that a team of 6, even of just average level players, would defeat a group of 6 very well setup players going solo quite handily.

    I doubt that you'll ever find 6 people to take up that challenge though. Heck, I doubt you could find 4. Deep down, I suspect that even the most hardcore traditional PvPer knows the truth, and that is that solo PvP (in mass PvP situations) is going the way of the horse and buggy.

    That I suspect is one of (several) reasons that they are canceling their accounts (not that they'd ever admit it ).

  13. #13
    New blood (players) would change things a lot I think... People's habits are hard to break...

    That goes for myself as well... but I try to be aware of it and work on it
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  14. #14
    Well, excuse me, but having AS every 12 seconds (still less reliable then agent's one) and dizzy pet is far from "high damage kill" whatnot.

    We need at least comparable bow spec arrow option to go with it (at least 6k fixed dmg at PvP (affected by reflects ofc), since recharge on existing one is so horribly long and damage is too low), or some "killer" nuke (1500-2000 PvP dmg -also affected by reflects) to be on par with other "high damage kill" professions.

    Once we get that, feel free to use "high damage kill" words along with MP one. Until then, please, STFU.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod View Post
    But he's so horribly wrong.
    I don't think you can say he's wrong...
    You can disagree with him on whether that's how it should be, but not whether teaming up is something that helps you as an individual as well as a team, and nor that it is something that can be balanced for in my opinion.

    I personally like the way FC has decided to tackle PvP, while others don't... Personal taste and habit I guess.

    I've never been into PvP much, but since LE it has started to look more intersting to me across the board, simply because of the new direction it has taken with regard to being more team focused.

    "Forcing" people to work in teams allows FC to let the various professions have an extremely varied toolset, and thereby also the opportunity of strategy.

    Perfect balancing in 1vs1 would essentially mean that every profession should have the same tools, otherwise some profession will always without a doubt have a benefit over another...

    Especially when the only thing being rewarded is killing someone.
    Surviving don't give you any titles, mitigating damage don't give you any titles, rooting someone don't give you any titles, debuffing someone to hell and back don't give you any titles and so on and so forth.....

    So.... how do you "balance" things if you want people to have various interesting tools for PvP, while only rewarding a kill?
    You let people get that kill by proxy.... Namely your team mates, combined with yourself helping them kill or survive depending on what the strengths of your profession is.

    That's how I see it... also called my opinion... Others, like you, may have another but that's kinda like things are when you have to do with people

    We can all advocate for what we like, but saying others are wrong is rather missplaced when you're talking about stuff governed by opinion and not a calculator.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekh View Post
    We can all advocate for what we like, but saying others are wrong is rather missplaced when you're talking about stuff governed by opinion and not a calculator.
    He's doing the same.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Klod View Post
    He's doing the same.
    Ofc... Never said he didn't...
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  18. #18
    Haha if anyone ever wanted to know how Sony could screw up SWG so badly, it was thinking like the above from Ebag. The sad thing is, I already addressed most of what he said in my first post, particularly the six on six thing. If I've time later I'll respond, but I'm guessing some of the ludicrous claims he makes will make me lose patience (again) and he'll have yet another excuse to lock this thread.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Haha if anyone ever wanted to know how Sony could screw up SWG so badly, it was thinking like the above from Ebag. The sad thing is, I already addressed most of what he said in my first post, particularly the six on six thing. If I've time later I'll respond, but I'm guessing some of the ludicrous claims he makes will make me lose patience (again) and he'll have yet another excuse to lock this thread.
    you "explained" how a team not working together will fail.


    its rather interesting how people have no problems teaming and helping each other in pvm. but when it comes to pvp, its like its some taboo that shal not be spoken of... people go into [CS/UT/Q]-mode and think its ffa.

    but lets see.. if we try to "balance" based upon 1vs1. that means we need to check X for Y professions. so for each thing you want to balance, it has to be checked against 14 (yes, including self profession).

    so, if we were to get a double or tripe AS bow. would any profession get protection or immunity to it? would we get protection from our own means?

    if we were to double all our defensive skills. does that make us unhittable to all professions? or just a few? if it only marginally makes our defense better against most, and makes us unhittable to a few, does that mean we need to further increase our defenses to make us even more unhittable to those few, so we can be unhittable to all professions?

    if either were to occur, then how do you balance out the other professions against us? who is suppose to beable to take us down? anyone? or should we be the sole profession thats unkillable?

    what happens if we do become unkillable in pvp, but our offense stays the same. or gets nerfed due to this? sure in a duel we cant be killed, but we cant kill the other person, so it ends in a draw. what then? is that suppose to be the ultimate fun?

    or FC could just make it tons easier on themselves, and make all professions the same when it comes to pvp. that would be effectively perfect balance.

    i'm still waiting for an explination on how you're suppose to balance group pvp by only focusing on 1vs1.

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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Haha if anyone ever wanted to know how Sony could screw up SWG so badly, it was thinking like the above from Ebag. The sad thing is, I already addressed most of what he said in my first post, particularly the six on six thing. If I've time later I'll respond, but I'm guessing some of the ludicrous claims he makes will make me lose patience (again) and he'll have yet another excuse to lock this thread.
    6-person team works because the others aren't in a team. When both 6-person vs 6-person are on an equal footing, then two things happen very fast - I have led this sort of thing long before you called yourself a PVP MP:

    1) All supports get called first
    2) They die
    3) Combat profs and whichever supports still alive then turn on each other and enjoy PVP while we rezz at reclaim

    When I'm a caller in small PVP, I always target support profs first because it's so much easier to kill them and consequently it's better to get rid of them first before worrying about AMS'd soldier or coon/limbered adv or SL ess'd enf where you need numbers to wear them down. If you are 6 vs 6, and you know the soldier or enf or adv can tank all 6 people's alpha, calling him first is is suicide because it allows them to pick off your support profs. So your theory only works in an imbalanced situation of teamed and coordinated vs bunch of noobs unteamed, it has never worked in balanced ones with experienced PVPers before.
    Your example ignores a few things.

    One, it ignores the fact that those support professions can be helped by their team. If your step 2 doesn't happen, then what?

    And most support professions have enough in the way of defense that they aren't going to be brushed aside without a thought, even by 6 people targeting them.

    As a simple example, take a doc and support them by engie, crat, enfo, advie, and agent (picked 5 random profs off the top of my head).

    If the doc gets targeted first, they have 24% reflects, 7 spec blockers, several hundred +aad, +HP from enfo, their own heals, and additional heals from advie and agent (not to mention all the other little stuff that can add up, +evade, a small absorb, etc etc etc etc etc).

    I've already shown that 7 spec blockers alone blocks up to 240% damage. The reflects will reduce incoming damage by almost a quarter. The AAD will help prevent the support professions on the other side from landing hits/perks on them. The +HP from the enfo will help give them more HP to last longer. And of course doc + advie + agent heals aren't exactly anything to sneeze at.


    To continue the example, lets say that the other side consists of the same 6 professions. So Side A (who is teamed and working together) also targets Side B's (who is not working together or teamed) doc. Side B's doc has no spec blockers, no +HP, no +AAD, no +reflects, and no heals from his side's advie or agent.


    Which Doc do you think is going to be standing longer? The doc who got support, or the doc who didn't? It doesn't matter if side A isn't as well equipped as side B. The example above doesn't assume side B is a bunch of noobs either. They can be some of the top one on one PvP players.....but if they don't take care of their doc, their doc is going to die.


    If side A can keep their doc alive for just ten seconds longer than side B (and with the huge difference in support I can guarantee you it'll be longer than that) then that's long enough to make a difference. Especially because the next support person called will have that same support for side A while side B's won't.






    And as for targeting support profs in PvP, I've never said that's not what should happen. That's simply smart (most of the time). But at that point strategy is going to come into play, because you're going to have to figure out how your side can utilize their skills to effect the other side.

    For example, if you have an MP you might have them debuff (NSD, eNSD, or Beneficial Scourge) the doc/advie/agent. Now all of a sudden that doc that you're targeting is missing a lot of heals, and can no longer keep up with the incoming damage.

    If you have a trader, you might have them focus on draining the opposing sides damage profs to remove that distraction.

    If you have an engie, you might choose to focus your damage on the soldier, rip his shields, and drop him quick to remove his damage and reflect buff from his teammates, making them more vulnerable. (Note that this is a strategy that goes against the common practice of targeting support profs first....any rule can be broken, as long as you're willing to pay the price for breaking that rule.)

    There are a million strategies out there that are completely unused because they require team effort.

    You take care of your team, they take care of you. It's that simple.

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