Thread: MP Nano Document Discussion Thread

  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    Well I'd guess that they think that the improvements to pets, adding 2x - 4x the nuke power etc are going to count as offense. I suppose that they'd also think that adding more base evades, 3x - 4x healing power, DtP, bigger damage debuffs, bigger NanoDmg debuffs, AoE mez effect etc count as more defense...

    And to the overall environment, they'd probably count that AMS perks no longer use double AAO, Specials being nerfed, anti-kiting measures, parry etc.

    I'd personally agree that there are still problems with these tools. And I'd agree that things need to change. But blank statements like the above won't help in persuading the devs, since they seem to ignore so much of what has been implemented.

    X
    I think I dont agree with you.

    Offense:
    We dont know how well improved our pets will be. And also, if they improved enough to make us happy, ppl will cry asking for then to be nerfed, and they will. Happened twice already.

    No real nuke improvement if you cannot spam then w/o lossing all your nano. I current have 19k Nano and I run out of nano after buff 15ppl with CMo. It means 20~25 nukes before my nano go to 0.
    Defense:
    Bow MPs are losing 70 defense, while Zset ones are losing 400 in pvp. And dont ever forget about NR and snare/root resistance.

    Bow MPs are getting 20% reflect and Zset ones are lossing 10%, but we all know all pets are going to be affected. And its a double edge gain cause we dont know what will happen with pets.

    Healpet heals are awesome improved, I have to admit it. But, it will not save us from alphas. So, awesome for pvm, nothing for pvp.

    All debuffs so far: Useless in pvm, if we lose our healpet we are dead. Nice in pvp, but none of our debuffs save us from perks.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Do share the setup, please.
    It is possible but with low AR and loss of AAD and life.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    Bow MPs are losing 70 defense, while Zset ones are losing 400 in pvp. And dont ever forget about NR and snare/root resistance.
    The defense loss is higher because they will have to give it up to be able to cast the new pet.

  4. #464
    ^^ Just pointing that we are losing defense, not gaining, like some ppl thinks. We got more evades, but less aad. So, we losing more than gaining.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    The defense loss is higher because they will have to give it up to be able to cast the new pet.
    Nope.avi

    Post a setup showing your current evadeclsc, dodge, duck, and aad and I'll show you mine (nanoskill build).
    Last edited by Mountaingoat; Apr 3rd, 2011 at 23:04:23.

  6. #466

  7. #467
    Lainbr... I didn't say that I agreed with the assessment. I just said that I think FC would respond in that way. You had said that if FC weren't giving us offense, then why hadn't they given us defense either?... and I was suggesting that FC would probably see that differently.

    Personally, I'd say it was a mixed bag and it's going to be tough to work out just how well balanced it is or not. As you yourself seem to recognise, a lot depends on just how good the pets are (which we pretty much always knew), and on how the alpha reductions (shared CDs, longer casting perks etc) work out, how the 20% reduction in PvP damage cap from the DtP helps out etc etc... and how everything continues to be adjusted.

    I have a bunch of things that I'd want to change in this document, even without deeply altering the basic ideas in there. But if I were a professional and had to put up a top five issues that I'd want to go after in this document right now, they'd be:

    - Creation Bow attack/recharge

    Suggestion: Reduce/Remove the nanodamage modifier and reduce the weapon speed to 1.6/1.6.

    - Weapon AR:

    Suggestion: Add Pistol/1HB/2HB/Bow buff scaled giving a %age of MatCre at time of casting. Top buff value around +250.


    - Damage Debuffs

    Suggestion: reduce damage debuff portion by 35% and remove immunities. (e.g. top debuff down to -1528 dmg/-470 inits).


    - Top Shields

    Suggestion: Add Q220 2HB shield to replace SoZ giving a wide range of buffs to equivalent levels of the present shields and increase the individual top shield values by 30%.


    - Damage to Pet - which pet(s) the damage goes to.

    Suggestion: Best solution is for the damage to go to the attack pet

    If the damage has to go to 3 pets due to technical issues: Multiplier should be set to 33%.


    But I'd bet money, that those top 5 things will change during the rest of the development cycle... particularly after testing gets underway. I'm also sure that other people would have different priorities... that's always going to be the way, I'd guess.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Apr 3rd, 2011 at 23:42:31.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  8. #468
    P.S. On the Damage to Pet thing and its effect on the pets:

    1) It looks like it works like DtN, so damage transferred is the amount after capping etc has happened. So compared to pet HP values.... the amount of damage going through to the pet will be small.

    2) You'd die yourself long, long before the pet died from your DtP damage. Let's say you have 10K HP and you get to near death... your pet would have taken ~2K damage. Even with a bunch of heals to you from the heal pet - you'd have to have taken and healed a massive amount of damage before the pet got near to dying.

    3) FC have clearly said that they'll increase the defences and HP values etc, so that all pets will no longer be quick, easy kills - so opponents killing the pets to take away your DtP will take a lot more damage away from you than before.

    4) We do have mega-heals for pets now, on the heal pet. So, if a player does decide to attack your pets in order to take away your DtP target... you can make that a much more difficult proposition.

    I'm not saying it's perfect... but I think that many people aren't really grasping the mechanics and impact of the DtP effect.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    I think I dont agree with you.

    Offense:
    We dont know how well improved our pets will be. And also, if they improved enough to make us happy, ppl will cry asking for then to be nerfed, and they will. Happened twice already.

    No real nuke improvement if you cannot spam then w/o lossing all your nano. I current have 19k Nano and I run out of nano after buff 15ppl with CMo. It means 20~25 nukes before my nano go to 0.
    Defense:
    Bow MPs are losing 70 defense, while Zset ones are losing 400 in pvp. And dont ever forget about NR and snare/root resistance.

    Bow MPs are getting 20% reflect and Zset ones are lossing 10%, but we all know all pets are going to be affected. And its a double edge gain cause we dont know what will happen with pets.

    Healpet heals are awesome improved, I have to admit it. But, it will not save us from alphas. So, awesome for pvm, nothing for pvp.

    All debuffs so far: Useless in pvm, if we lose our healpet we are dead. Nice in pvp, but none of our debuffs save us from perks.
    Since AS is undergoing a change to have it turned into a 3 second attack the viability of that special attack will probably lose some of its shine and a def/nano hud will probably exchange the targeting scope.
    The new bow's add alot of good stuff, 215 bow spec attack, 108 MC, nano range & nano damage adds. There's also the new 250 evade buff.

    And wasnt there some change about the AAD coming aswell?

    Well anyways, time will tell.

    Personaly with these proposed changes im hoping for some special arrow lub... with some new special feature that put MP's in a unique shelf now that they are gona remove all the debuffs from us. And maybe just maybe some landable bow perks =)

    We can also check the bow spec's for the new bow's just 1k bow/fling that leaves us with alot of room for swapping equiptment on the go i know im pretty strapped for IP because of the darkblue weapon lines.

    And is it just me or does the Shield of zset going to be 1h blunt?

  10. #470
    "Shield of Zset" is 1HB yes... but it's not the shield of zset of old - just a normal red shield at the top of that line.

    The issue at top level, that you're missing a bit, is that Sacrificial Shielding is being lost - which is why Lainbr has a lot of negative numbers on his analysis.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  11. #471
    And also 90% of bow mps will refocus on nanoskills, due AS nerf. So... we, at least I, will gain almost no AR to land perks >.<
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post
    And also 90% of bow mps will refocus on nanoskills, due AS nerf. So... we, at least I, will gain almost no AR to land perks >.<
    AAD won't apply to NR checking perks either, giving MP's a significant boost with those perks.

    And from the Perk Overview Doc: 'We will change attack skills and defense checks to make sure that professions with previously less-than-useful perk specials now will be able to utilize said specials.'

    The Perk documents are going to be redone.

    And why should MP's be relying on perk damage to kill people in PvP, it's like not being able to land perks is the end of the world, and you've not even seen how strong the pets are going to turn out to be yet...

    All in all MP's may not be getting any extra AR to land the perks, but people will be loosing def against them, which I believe will be giving MP's a net gain.

    P.S. MP's shouldn't need to be using AS to PvP, it currently broken and badly in need of a fix, which is why it's getting fixed.

    All that being said, I'm sad MP Debuffs got nerfed, particularly the damage debuffs
    Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
    Varinox - Omni Level 220 Meta-Physicist on Atlantean
    Yamarra - Omni Level 150 Shade on Atlantean

    Feel free to send me any tell in game or a Private Message if you require anything.

  13. #473
    @Ebondevil I meant bow perks which ppl is saying "See we got more AR!!"

    :3 WTB MPs back to debuffers role.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  14. #474
    Well yes - I'd agree that Bow perks will only be marginally easier to land... but overall, MP perk damage should be much better. I'd honestly expect the CoNC perks to get changed to Nanoskill Vs NR too.

    Bow perks are a more important part of 'burst' damage at the moment for bow MPs... but they'll be a much less important part after all the changes, including Alpha/Finisher nukes, Nanoskill based perks and Nanodamage perks.

    And yup, as I think most MPs in this document have said... I'd pay good money to have a stronger MP debuff profile. The document improves some stuff, in some ways... but too much has been lost, I think.

    We'll only really get to see this when the whole thing hits the test environment. But there are some things that I think should really be altered before we get there - or I fear, that we'll have to argue for more change than FC will be able to get done in beta.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  15. #475
    Everybody says dmg debuff got nerfed. In some way yes, but in other it will be useful Now!

    Yes, -1k static dmg in pvm was good. But wasnt easy even to keep up on 2 mobs. 10 sec duration, recharge time, also u use other stuffs. Simply just impossible to use so many stuffs in that 10 secs.

    In pvm that small dmg debuff we lose with this, we get back much more with self evade buff. Thats very cool nano, and more evade always better than a little more debuff. Also we get Ihealpet , so that u lose on dmg debuff u get back more on pet. Also area mezz.. on overall pvm mp wont be nerfed at all imo. Less def from Zset, but u get +3k hp also reflect for those who didnt use Zset.

    For pvp, old dmg debuff was crap. I couldnt debuff enfs, and when i did on sol i still got hit by capped FA and huge base hits. New debuff will reduce that to Zero! It means vs all profs u are immun 1/3 of the time (1 vs 1 at least). Ofc only wep dmg dmg, but its still huge help if they cant cap AS or FA on you!. Perks will be slower, so healpet will have time to heal us. In all im pretty happy with this dmg debuff nano. Finally useful in pvp, and what we lost with it in pvm, we get back elsewhere. Also you totally forget 1 thing: old dmg debuff overwrite Malaise so you could never use on boss when u had a crat in team. And since teams get crat for strong bosses 99% of time, this line was useless.

    Also we get hd debuff line that we never had. Only that crappy -250 init debuff nano didnt make much difference, but this will.

    Also as they said attack pet, healpet and mezzpet will be around same on hp. Rihwen had around 50k hp or more? If other pets will have 50k that will be uber. If u get capped hit, that means only 20% goes to pet, around 1-2k dmg vs 50k hp? You will die much faster than ur pet, even with a doc behind u.

  16. #476
    Back to wep probs: I would be happy even with that if Devs remove all bow/1hb etc based perks and replace mps with nanoskill perks mostly. Ofc you can use bow or 1hb perk line, but u wont perk anybody (only mobs) so i wouldnt count on those as dmg source.

    Or, wtb more self and team nano perks so we can keep up nuking. Mps never been good with perking others especially with wep dmg perks. And get real, FC wont give us +1k AR so lets get other type of dmg perks. We will focus more on nano skills, so lets ask for nano skill perks. Then we can totally ignore our weps. Also i would be happy with a 1,5 / 3 bow, and all melee wep should be 1,5 / 2 (2,3) so using nanos wont nerf our base hits. Recharge can be longer, that has nothing to do with nanocasting.

    I may even reset AS and FS later and get enough skills in all wep lines. Atm i can swap Tigress for Zset, but i hate that shield

    Also it may be an opportinuty, swapping between weps depends on the situation. Bow for pvp, shield/staff for pvm. And if we can get init lowered on weps, and recharge a lil higher, we wouldnt need much (any) inits for weps. That would mean we can choose from more setups and that would make mp realy unique. Nobody else would do the same.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    AAD won't apply to NR checking perks either, giving MP's a significant boost with those perks.

    And from the Perk Overview Doc: 'We will change attack skills and defense checks to make sure that professions with previously less-than-useful perk specials now will be able to utilize said specials.'

    The Perk documents are going to be redone.

    And why should MP's be relying on perk damage to kill people in PvP, it's like not being able to land perks is the end of the world, and you've not even seen how strong the pets are going to turn out to be yet...

    All in all MP's may not be getting any extra AR to land the perks, but people will be loosing def against them, which I believe will be giving MP's a net gain.

    P.S. MP's shouldn't need to be using AS to PvP, it currently broken and badly in need of a fix, which is why it's getting fixed.

    All that being said, I'm sad MP Debuffs got nerfed, particularly the damage debuffs
    You got your damage to time like our pets (dots) and our alfa nuke (AS and AS specials), so following your reasoning you don't need AR either, ask FC to remove all your weapon support and AR so you get the same AR MPs got and we will be at the same level in damage output.

    AR is not for those sucky weapon perks, it is for REGULAR DAMAGE and for PROCS. And yes, I want it for my pistols. Tell your agents that they will loose most of their AR but they "might" have pretty dots in exchange and I will get popcorn and soda for the burning.

    I don't like bow but that does not mean that AS is the primary damage for bow MPs and there is NOT ANY REASON that AS and AS specials must be exclusive to agents. Agents specialty is mimic.

  18. #478
    Klod: my acc is closed atm, cant tell u exact setup. But its the base of it:

    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=115953

    Using ofab leg/gloves/back. R-hand imp (i think MC/AS), sup l-r-arms. def board, ncus changedit, masterpiece ancient bracer, All symb alpha ofc. Perks, dunno, i swapped for more bow perks, maybe 6 on conc atm. TuF, Ranger maxed.

    You need 1770 AS skills to cap 11sec. With scope my def drops a lot, around 2,8k or os. Last time i checked i think i had ~1,1k aad. Well thats my AS setup. Pretty much offensive but i can swap hud3 and go zset if i want. Around 14k self hp.

  19. #479
    You might not remember the nanoskills you got. Reopen your account and look again please. I use CS in your CSS slots and more nanoskill equipment and my top is 2400. All nanoskill giving perks, the best org benefits but towers, better symbiants. No way you got 200 points more in nanoskill than me.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutyimutyi View Post
    Klod: my acc is closed atm, cant tell u exact setup. But its the base of it:

    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=115953

    Using ofab leg/gloves/back. R-hand imp (i think MC/AS), sup l-r-arms. def board, ncus changedit, masterpiece ancient bracer, All symb alpha ofc. Perks, dunno, i swapped for more bow perks, maybe 6 on conc atm. TuF, Ranger maxed.

    You need 1770 AS skills to cap 11sec. With scope my def drops a lot, around 2,8k or os. Last time i checked i think i had ~1,1k aad. Well thats my AS setup. Pretty much offensive but i can swap hud3 and go zset if i want. Around 14k self hp.
    Well, that's far from 2500 MC and that's some seriously crappy HP and def. Dunno, new perk situation might actually bring it barely enough to reach 2500 but, meh...
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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